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xtrememachine1

Sharks sign RFA Niklas Hjalmarsson

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This is what I'm talking about. You'll all make any excuse in the world to explain Datsyuk's scoring troubles in the playoffs, but in Hossa's case the only possible explanation you'll consider is 'lazy and sucks'. You even deny him credit for his best season, attributing all his success to Crosby. The bitterness is obvious, even a little funny.

Is this making you feel better about yourself?

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This is what I'm talking about. You'll all make any excuse in the world to explain Datsyuk's scoring troubles in the playoffs, but in Hossa's case the only possible explanation you'll consider is 'lazy and sucks'. You even deny him credit for his best season, attributing all his success to Crosby. The bitterness is obvious, even a little funny.

If you can't have a discussion about a subject without attempting to attack another person's character then don't bother responding to me.

I also believe Datsyuk underacheived in the 09 playoffs, but had a cup hangover and TWO great playoffs (not even including 07) to show for himself. Hossa has had one playoff year in which he scored at least .5 gpg and that was with a 100 point superstar playmaker to center him.

Edited by Doc Holliday

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This is what I'm talking about. You'll all make any excuse in the world to explain Datsyuk's scoring troubles in the playoffs, but in Hossa's case the only possible explanation you'll consider is 'lazy and sucks'.

More than likely because the guy has loyalty to the organization for so many years and just does so many different things for us as Hossa just leeches for a Cup. Hey, its a little more honest I suppose. We love Pav.

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If you can't have a discussion about a subject without attempting to attack another person's character then don't bother responding to me.

I also believe Datsyuk underacheived in the 09 playoffs, but had a cup hangover and TWO great playoffs (not even including 07) to show for himself. Hossa has had one playoff year in which he scored at least .5 gpg and that was with a 100 point superstar playmaker to center him.

Wait...I'm attacking someone's character by suggesting they are bitter over Hossa leaving or claiming they have a homer bias?

And now for Hossa to have a successful playoff he has to score goals at a significantly better rate than he has in his career regular season? Seems a little unfair of a standard. Pav has averaged 0.65 apg in his career regular season. He's never once managed that rate in the playoffs, much less exceeded it. Why doesn't that matter to you?

You're full of excuses to explain away Pav's scoring troubles. I'm sure someone who cared could do the same for Hossa. But they won't give you a Cup for having a good enough excuse. Neither player scores as well in the playoffs as they do in the regular season. That is an indisputable fact.

That you can't make that simple admission without couching it in excuses, while simultaneously refusing to even consider the possibility that Hossa is anything other than a playoff choker is just plain biased. I'm sorry if that offends your character, but that's what it is.

My original assertion was that Hossa is one piece giving chicago a very good top 6 forward unit. I stand by that.

More than likely because the guy has loyalty to the organization for so many years and just does so many different things for us as Hossa just leeches for a Cup. Hey, its a little more honest I suppose. We love Pav.

I don't remember anyone criticizing Hossa for being a leech or mercenary when he came to Detroit. Well, except Penguin fans. Wonder why that is...

Edited by Buppy

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Wait...I'm attacking someone's character by suggesting they are bitter over Hossa leaving or claiming they have a homer bias?

And now for Hossa to have a successful playoff he has to score goals at a significantly better rate than he has in his career regular season? Seems a little unfair of a standard. Pav has averaged 0.65 apg in his career regular season. He's never once managed that rate in the playoffs, much less exceeded it. Why doesn't that matter to you?

You're full of excuses to explain away Pav's scoring troubles. I'm sure someone who cared could do the same for Hossa. But they won't give you a Cup for having a good enough excuse. Neither player scores as well in the playoffs as they do in the regular season. That is an indisputable fact.

That you can't make that simple admission without couching it in excuses, while simultaneous refusing to even consider the possibility that Hossa is anything other than a player choker is just plain biased. I'm sorry if that offends your character, but that's what it is.

My original assertion was that Hossa is one piece giving chicago a very good top 6 forward unit. I stand by that.

I don't remember anyone criticizing Hossa for being a leech or mercenary when he came to Detroit. Well, except Penguin fans. Wonder why that is...

Fan perception can be a crazy thing.

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Wait...I'm attacking someone's character by suggesting they are bitter over Hossa leaving or claiming they have a homer bias?

That's exactly it. Don't act like I am bitter when I had no problem with Hossa leaving and would have enjoyed having him stay on the team, especially last year.

And I wouldn't consider it a homer bias if I had said these same things when Hossa was here (which I did) and am more of a fan of Hossa than I am Datsyuk (which I am).

And now for Hossa to have a successful playoff he has to score goals at a significantly better rate than he has in his career regular season?

Significantly better? The guy has done significantly WORSE.

Seems a little unfair of a standard. Pav has averaged 0.65 apg in his career regular season. He's never once managed that rate in the playoffs, much less exceeded it. Why doesn't that matter to you?

Because I judge Datsyuk as an elite all around player and not just a playmaker. Unless you disagree and consider Hossa to be primarily an assist man?

You're full of excuses to explain away Pav's scoring troubles. I'm sure someone who cared could do the same for Hossa. But they won't give you a Cup for having a good enough excuse. Neither player scores as well in the playoffs as they do in the regular season. That is an indisputable fact.

And when it comes down to it Hossa does worse when it comes to producing goals, the thing that he was supposed to do on Detroit as a WINGER. The last two years he was solid defensively but was not a great offensive contributor. Datsyuk in 09 was not having a good year (funny how you ignore that I mention that) offensively but did very well on a struggling Detroit team in the playoffs.

That you can't make that simple admission without couching it in excuses, while simultaneously refusing to even consider the possibility that Hossa is anything other than a playoff choker is just plain biased. I'm sorry if that offends your character, but that's what it is.

1. There is a difference between bias and bitterness. You can argue bias with me but don't say "oh you are bitter" without anything to show for it, especially when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

2. I never said Hossa was a choker, just a weaker playoff player than Datsyuk. And especially weaker than Franzen, the man who Holland essentially picked in front of him. Money well spent in my opinion.

My original assertion was that Hossa is one piece giving chicago a very good top 6 forward unit. I stand by that.

No one is disputing that, but I don't see how that will help when Hossa is having trouble scoring goals in the playoffs. Especially with a team that relied soley on its depth to win the cup in the first place.

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No one is disputing that, but I don't see how that will help when Hossa is having trouble scoring goals in the playoffs. Especially with a team that relied soley on its depth to win the cup in the first place.

We should know better than anyone that team and individual (like Hossa in 08-09, 40 rs goals and only 6 postseason, 0 in finals) regular season success doesn't mean s*** in the playoffs.

Edited by Hockeytown0001

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That's exactly it. Don't act like I am bitter when I had no problem with Hossa leaving and would have enjoyed having him stay on the team, especially last year.

And I wouldn't consider it a homer bias if I had said these same things when Hossa was here (which I did) and am more of a fan of Hossa than I am Datsyuk (which I am).

Significantly better? The guy has done significantly WORSE.

Because I judge Datsyuk as an elite all around player and not just a playmaker. Unless you disagree and consider Hossa to be primarily an assist man?

And when it comes down to it Hossa does worse when it comes to producing goals, the thing that he was supposed to do on Detroit as a WINGER. The last two years he was solid defensively but was not a great offensive contributor. Datsyuk in 09 was not having a good year (funny how you ignore that I mention that) offensively but did very well on a struggling Detroit team in the playoffs.

1. There is a difference between bias and bitterness. You can argue bias with me but don't say "oh you are bitter" without anything to show for it, especially when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

2. I never said Hossa was a choker, just a weaker playoff player than Datsyuk. And especially weaker than Franzen, the man who Holland essentially picked in front of him. Money well spent in my opinion.

No one is disputing that, but I don't see how that will help when Hossa is having trouble scoring goals in the playoffs. Especially with a team that relied soley on its depth to win the cup in the first place.

Well, I'm not going to dig through all your old posts to nail down your every opinion. Your comments (and the other comments from other posters) that I was responding to in this thread strike me as biased and bitter. I'm sorry if that offends you. I guess I expect someone accumstomed to the internet to show a little thicker skin. Oh well.

And to clarify some points:

You mentioned that Hossa had only once scored more than .5 gpg in the playoffs. My repsonse was that that is an unfair standard. It is unfair because for one .5 gpg is significantly higher than his career regular-season average of .436, and also because it completely ignores his other contributions. My comment on Datsyuk's assists was an example of how you were unfairly judging Hossa. Hossa, like Datsyuk, is an elite all-around player. He does more, much more, than just score goals.

And I didn't ignore your comment on Datsyuk performance in '09. I only bothered to address it indirectly because you also added an excuse for it immediately after the comment. It seems you cannot say anything bad about Datsyuk without immediately following up with a mitigating compliment or excuse, and cannot say anything good about Hossa without a follow-up criticism. Now that it seems that isn't working out, you take the argument further afield by bringing up Franzen...for what purpose beyond criticizing Hossa?

'Bitterness' does not necessarily mean you wanted him to stay. That can also stem from blaming him for our loss in the Finals. Or it could just mean an extra bias against him for choosing Chicago, or just being a former Wing, even if you accept that it wasn't feasible to keep him. I think there is plenty of evidence that you an others in this thread are judging Hossa by a notably specific standard in order to purposefully paint him as negatively as you can. To me, it seems a bit more than simple bias. Motivated bias I would say. Again, sorry if that offends you.

And one more time I'll say that I was not comparing Datsyuk and Hossa. I agree that Datsyuk is a better player. The point was that Datsyuk does not score as well in the playoffs as he does in the regular season. Someone was suggesting that Hossa was not a very valuable player because his scoring drops in the playoffs. I contend that that is no more true than it is in regards to Datsyuk, who ,statistically, struggles even more in the scoring department. So someone did indeed dispute Hossa's value, stating something to effect of 'Kane-Toews and not much else' and dismissing Hossa's value pretty much entirely. That's how this debate got started in the first place.

But I do notice once again your inability to allow something that might reflect favorably on Hossa to pass without an associated criticism. Yeah, you obviously don't have anything against the guy.

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Looks like Chicago added two more scrubs to their line-up. Skille ($600k) and Dowell ($525k). That's a combination of $1 million more than Chicago can pay as they are over the cap by $1 million and need to sign 4 or 5 more scrubs.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blackhawks don't make the playoffs next year.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Blackhawks don't make the playoffs next year.

I would still be very surprised. Any team that can ice Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Campbell (incredibly overpaid but regardless a good #4 Dman) as it's top pairing Dmen; and still can line up Toews, Kane, Hossa, maybe Sharp at forward; is going to be good enough to get into the playoffs.

Byfuglien and Versteeg, and maybe Ladd, are the only guys they lost that were any good and probably can't replace. That's definitely not nothing, especially when talking about their performance in the playoffs, but not enough to push them into the West's bottom seven, in my opinion. Even if they lose Sharp, which would be huge, I don't think it'll be enough to push them out of the post season.

Surely they aren't favorites to repeat anymore, and quite possibly the balance of power that briefly shifted from Detroit to Chicago in the Central, as the result of Detroit's own cap-induced exodus, will be shifting back this season. Although looking ahead even that remains tenuous with Lidstrom's impending retirement, but possibly counterbalanced by future cap-casualties of Chicago (looking at you, Seabrook). Who knows what the future holds. :P

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I would still be very surprised. Any team that can ice Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Campbell (incredibly overpaid but regardless a good #4 Dman) as it's top pairing Dmen; and still can line up Toews, Kane, Hossa, maybe Sharp at forward; is going to be good enough to get into the playoffs.

Byfuglien and Versteeg, and maybe Ladd, are the only guys they lost that were any good and probably can't replace. That's definitely not nothing, especially when talking about their performance in the playoffs, but not enough to push them into the West's bottom seven, in my opinion. Even if they lose Sharp, which would be huge, I don't think it'll be enough to push them out of the post season.

Surely they aren't favorites to repeat anymore, and quite possibly the balance of power that briefly shifted from Detroit to Chicago in the Central, as the result of Detroit's own cap-induced exodus, will be shifting back this season. Although looking ahead even that remains tenuous with Lidstrom's impending retirement, but possibly counterbalanced by future cap-casualties of Chicago (looking at you, Seabrook). Who knows what the future holds. :P

Good post. I think Chicago missing the playoffs is just wishful thinking. We'll probably take the central this year but with some of the prospects they stocked up on I think the next several years will be pretty interesting.

I'm sure the $4m in bonus money comes off their cap hit for next year so they'll probably use that to sign Seabrook long term and anybody else who needs raises, plus whatever money the cap might rise by.

Edited by Tommy_Like_Wingy

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We'll probably take the central this year but with some of the prospects they stocked up on I think the next several years will be pretty interesting.

Could be. Hopefully the whole lot of them will wash out, become journeymen for a few seasons, then come to Detroit and end up as folk heroes (based on a true story! :P).

I'm sure the $4m in bonus money comes off their cap hit for next year so they'll probably use that to sign Seabrook long term and anybody else who needs raises, plus whatever money the cap might rise by.

Good catch, I forgot about the bonuses while I was staring at those spreadsheets. He'll definitely get paid. But I guess that'll still put a tighter squeeze on the rest of their periphery players, so it's not all bad. But of course as I relayed in my other post, the core they have signed til at least 2014 (and some well beyond that) plus a rotating cast of ELC and scrub players will still most likely make for many playoff appearances in the foreseeable future.

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Looks like Chicago added two more scrubs to their line-up. Skille ($600k) and Dowell ($525k). That's a combination of $1 million more than Chicago can pay as they are over the cap by $1 million and need to sign 4 or 5 more scrubs.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blackhawks don't make the playoffs next year.

don't you know the Blackhawk fans who watch Skille and Dowell in Rockford are telling us they will be calder candidates? ha!

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I would still be very surprised. Any team that can ice Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Campbell (incredibly overpaid but regardless a good #4 Dman) as it's top pairing Dmen; and still can line up Toews, Kane, Hossa, maybe Sharp at forward; is going to be good enough to get into the playoffs.

Byfuglien and Versteeg, and maybe Ladd, are the only guys they lost that were any good and probably can't replace. That's definitely not nothing, especially when talking about their performance in the playoffs, but not enough to push them into the West's bottom seven, in my opinion. Even if they lose Sharp, which would be huge, I don't think it'll be enough to push them out of the post season.

Surely they aren't favorites to repeat anymore, and quite possibly the balance of power that briefly shifted from Detroit to Chicago in the Central, as the result of Detroit's own cap-induced exodus, will be shifting back this season. Although looking ahead even that remains tenuous with Lidstrom's impending retirement, but possibly counterbalanced by future cap-casualties of Chicago (looking at you, Seabrook). Who knows what the future holds. :P

I doubt they'll afford Neimi... or maybe they lose Sharp too. If one of their top 4 dmen get injured they're doomed. They won't have the depth to counter that. Especially if they have to find a low wage scrub to play in net.

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I doubt they'll afford Neimi... or maybe they lose Sharp too. If one of their top 4 dmen get injured they're doomed. They won't have the depth to counter that. Especially if they have to find a low wage scrub to play in net.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them throw a million or two at Turco if Niemi leaves. Not that they'd be able to afford that, but Chicago has consistently proved they don't know how to act in a post-lockout era.

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I wouldn't be surprised to see them throw a million or two at Turco if Niemi leaves. Not that they'd be able to afford that, but Chicago has consistently proved they don't know how to act in a post-lockout era.

I could see that being possible. However, as they keep signing people... pretty soon, something's gotta give. Theyre well over the cap and still have a bunch of empty roster spots. Who else is on the way out? Sharp? Niemi? I don't that letting just one of these guys go is going to alleviate enough of their cap concerns to make them compliant.

As for the playoffs next year, in all likelihood, they will make it (and still be well head of lots of the teams who make it in the east), but if they don't make it, I won't be that surprised. There are plenty of teams in the league with insane amounts of talent on the roster, but no depth and poor management who perennially miss the playoffs.

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well if chicago can't afford seabrook next year, and lid retires, whats the possibility the wings offer him a contract? hmm

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I wouldn't be surprised to see them throw a million or two at Turco if Niemi leaves. Not that they'd be able to afford that, but Chicago has consistently proved they don't know how to act in a post-lockout era.

Not gonna happen. Turco already turned down a 3 year deal worth $6 million from the flyers.

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Not gonna happen. Turco already turned down a 3 year deal worth $6 million from the flyers.

Yes, but things have changed since then.

Teams that have their starter and backup locked up:

Ana, Bos, Buf, Cgy, Car, Col, Cbs, Dal, Det, Edm, Fla, LA, Min, NJ, NYI, NYR, Ott, Phi, Phx, Pit, StL, SJ, TB, Tor, Van, Wsh

Teams with an RFA in negotiations for the starting position:

Chi, Mtl

Teams with an RFA in negotiations for the backup position:

Atl

Teams which need to sign a backup:

Nsh

When Turco rejected Philly's offer, there were many more goaltending options out there. But Tampa, San Jose, Philly, Atlanta, and others made signings that filled spots Turco might have been able to sign up for. Now he's left with playing backup to Pekka Rinne in Nashville, signing for a cheap deal with Atlanta to be Mason's backup, being "Plan B" if Niemi and Price cost too much, respectively, for Chicago and Montreal, or signing a cheap deal with another team to compete for the backup spot; perhaps Calgary, Carolina, Anaheim or Phoenix.

Or maybe he can still get that deal from Philly.

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But I do notice once again your inability to allow something that might reflect favorably on Hossa to pass without an associated criticism. Yeah, you obviously don't have anything against the guy.

It's a shame you ruin a post with bile like this.

Check my HFboards account. Who is in the avatar?

http://hfboards.com/member.php?u=72843

In case you don't feel like looking.

Edited by Doc Holliday
Zeowingsfan likes this

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IMO they should trade Niemi for some more of those fabulous prospects and sign Sharp. They can then start Huet and bring in a rookie to alternate games with him. I just don't think that it would be wise to lose Sharp and keep Niemi.

Niemi gave up almost 4 goals/game in the finals. I don't think he's that great...

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IMO they should trade Niemi for some more of those fabulous prospects and sign Sharp. They can then start Huet and bring in a rookie to alternate games with him. I just don't think that it would be wise to lose Sharp and keep Niemi.

Niemi gave up almost 4 goals/game in the finals. I don't think he's that great...

Niemi is not signed, thus they cannot trade him. Sharp is already signed and under contract. The talk about him leaving is in regards to trading him away in order free up more cap space.

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Niemi is not signed, thus they cannot trade him. Sharp is already signed and under contract. The talk about him leaving is in regards to trading him away in order free up more cap space.

Ok. I stand corrected. He is an RFA. They would have to sign him then trade him. That's what I meant and it would be to free up cap space. They'd sign him then trade him for some more of those prospects that the silly Hawks fans are gushing over.

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Chicago needs to trade one of their high priced guys for 2-3 medium priced guys. It's that simple. If they were smart which they obviously aren't they's trade either:

Kane $6.3M

Toews $6.3M

Hossa $5.2M

Sharp $3.9M

Keith $5.5M

Hjarlmasson $3.5

Seabrook $3.5

Nobody is going to take Huet or Campbell so the have to part with one of these guys. Plain and simple. Kane, Toews and Keith have NM Clauses so let's get on with it -

Hossa, Sharp, Hjarlmasson or Seabrook?

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Chicago needs to trade one of their high priced guys for 2-3 medium priced guys. It's that simple. If they were smart which they obviously aren't they's trade either:

Kane $6.3M

Toews $6.3M

Hossa $5.2M

Sharp $3.9M

Keith $5.5M

Hjarlmasson $3.5

Seabrook $3.5

Nobody is going to take Huet or Campbell so the have to part with one of these guys. Plain and simple. Kane, Toews and Keith have NM Clauses so let's get on with it -

Hossa, Sharp, Hjarlmasson or Seabrook?

I think part of the stipulation of matching an offersheet is that they can't trade Hjalmarsson for a year.

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