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stevkrause

Ritola will be traded or waived

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I fail to grasp your attempt at an explanation. What am I showing by stating my opinion?

Perhaps you could be more detailed as apposed to highlighting my statement and trying to pass it off as a rebuttal.

If by showing my true colors you mean >> I think different systems produce different results. you are correct and I NEVER ONCE stated any differently.

You're using deflection to advert the conversation away from a valid point I have made, most likely due to an inability to counter it with any logical reprimand.

You masde it clear that nothing Ritola does, even 149 goals and 633 assists, will make you realise that this could well come back to hurt us. If he does develop into a scoring machine and a terrific NHL'er, the Wings management won't be at all at fault, because he does so in a different system. The Wings brass failer to recognise his talent wouldn't be their fault at all.

:rolleyes:

Wait, huh. Ritola was a highly touted prospect? @_@

What planet are u living on bro. Will he better then Miller? Who knows. But it was the right decision going forward for a team trying to win now not 5 years from now.

So Miller is effectively the difference between winning and losing this season?

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Right, because if you would choose Ritola over Miller that means you MUST think he is the next Crosby. There is no way around it. You have revealed us all for what we are.

And there's yet another ridiculous cop-out. The person to whom you responded was using exaggeration in order to prove a point. He was noting his belief that some people are overvaluing Ritola in their reaction to this matter. I agree. With this news, he in the minds of some people suddenly transitioned from an interesting possibility to a slam-dunk future success story. It's silly.

Edited by Crymson

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If I have 10 good defensemen, but I only get to keep 8, does that mean I only think those 8 are good?

Ummm... no?

That wasn't the argument I made. You keep the ones you think are or will become NHL defenseman. Holland may have thought Quincey was good, but apparently not good enough to cut it as a defenseman in the NHL. And we're not talking about bottom pairing. He plays 20+ minutes a night.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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And there's yet another ridiculous cop-out. The person to whom you responded was using exaggeration in order to prove a point. He was noting his belief that some people are overvaluing Ritola in their reaction to this matter. I agree. With this news, he in the minds of some people suddenly transitioned from an interesting possibility to a slam-dunk future success story. It's silly.

Who's saying that? He's got the potential to be a success story, one we sent packing for in all likeliness, a single season of Miller.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Even though you behave as if someone has, you actually haven't been given the position of judging all posts here at LGW.

Nice attempt at yet another cop-out. I called your comment dumb because you accused me of referring to Holland's work as perfect where in fact I hadn't mentioned Holland at all. Instead of noting that this is true, you've decided to pretend that I'm somehow out of line in criticizing your choice of words.

Nice delusional post. He never faced any challenging situations? do you realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? how could a defenseman in a playoff game never face a challenging situation. It just demonstrates how far gone you are when it comes to this subject. Inventing some version of the games where Quincey apparently just got to skate around there with no worries because he was coddled.

He was brought in to eat a small number of minutes. He didn't contribute much, and playing in the playoffs doesn't automatically make a player worth anything.

And he played 8 minutes a game in the postseason we're talking about. If you're going to be a condescending ass, at least get your facts right.

Whoops.

Again, he played more than six minutes per night. But don't let the facts get in the way of your condescension and revisionist history.

Whoops.

And lol @ revisionist history. Irony, anyone? You're the one who has claimed that Meech did not outperform Quincey when it counted. That's a ridiculous argument and you know it.

By the accounts that he didn't make the team. That's kind of circular reasoning.

Meech is waived, Quincey is an NHL defenseman. It's hilarious you don't think maybe holland missed something there.

Again, what a dumb argument. Where did I mention Holland?

I'll mention once again that Quincey played himself off the team. I fail to see how any GM could be expected to see a glimmer of potential in a prospect who failed to live up to expectations.

I realize it's what you said. Because you can't fathom that holland made a mistake. His job is to recognize latent talent in players. Of course a lot of the fault goes with Quincey, but it's Holland's too.

Again, how did this become about some imaginary feelings of mine that Holland is perfect? Why do you keep making that claim? What's your fixation there? I believe Holland made the right choice, given the circumstances. I don't recall saying Holland was perfect. What a dumb comment. Probably a cop-out, too.

I don't really understand your point here, but you're the one who has revised Quincey's play. He didn't win a spot, but you make it sound like he was a disaster out there and the Wings had to hide him on the bench.

The words you're referring to were intended to refute newfy's assertion that calling up a minor-leaguer to fill a #6 defense position somehow made that minor-leaguer a valuable asset by default.

Funny how you didn't address that pretty much any good coach would try to keep their bottom pairing away from the other team's top line, especially a rookie. That has nothing to do with Quincey's play.

See above.

Hopefully Ritola won't become another Quincey. If he does though, I'm sure you'll have plenty of posts about how it was all Ritola's fault.

Nice try. Perhaps it's time for you to attempt a response that does not include warping the poster's words. Then again, that appears to be a difficult thing for you.

Edited by Crymson

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And there's yet another ridiculous cop-out. The person to whom you responded was using exaggeration in order to prove a point. He was noting his belief that some people are overvaluing Ritola in their reaction to this matter. I agree. With this news, he in the minds of some people suddenly transitioned from an interesting possibility to a slam-dunk future success story. It's silly.

And I think his accusation of exaggeration had no point. His belief is that Ritola isn't a franchise player I think. Again, no one here is arguing that. You missed the point as well. We are comparing Ritola to the player that directly resulted in him being placed on waivers.

It's not a slam-dunk like you exaggerate, but would you care to defend Drew Miller as a guaranteed future success story? Just like Derek Meech?

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Nice attempt at yet another cop-out. I called your comment dumb because you accused me of referring to Holland's work as perfect where in fact I hadn't mentioned Holland at all. Instead of noting that this is true, you've decided to pretend that I'm somehow out of line in criticizing your choice of words.

He was brought in to eat a small number of minutes. He didn't contribute much, and playing in the playoffs doesn't automatically make a player worth anything.

Whoops.

Whoops.

And lol @ revisionist history. Irony, anyone? You're the one who has claimed that Meech did not outperform Quincey when it counted. That's a ridiculous argument and you know it.

Again, what a dumb argument. Where did I mention Holland?

I'll mention once again that Quincey played himself off the team. I fail to see how any GM could be expected to see a glimmer of potential in a prospect who failed to live up to expectations.

Again, how did this become about some imaginary feelings of mine that Holland is perfect? Why do you keep making that claim? What's your fixation there? I believe Holland made the right choice, given the circumstances. I don't recall saying Holland was perfect. What a dumb comment. Probably a cop-out, too.

The words you're referring to were intended to refute newfy's assertion that calling up a minor-leaguer to fill a #6 defense position somehow made that minor-leaguer a valuable asset by default.

See above.

Nice try. Perhaps it's time for you to attempt a response that does not include warping the poster's words. Then again, that appears to be a difficult thing for you.

Everyone has the potential to be a success story. Ritola, however, was at best a medium-value prospect. Further, he's only three years younger than Miller.

Nice try? yeah, why let facts get in the way of your invented argument.

How about you spend less time judging posts or being a Red Wings cheerleader and more time actually talking hockey?

I'm guessing that'll be difficult, because it seems you mostly have no idea what the f*** you're talking about.

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And I think his accusation of exaggeration had no point. His belief is that Ritola isn't a franchise player I think. Again, no one here is arguing that. You missed the point as well. We are comparing Ritola to the player that directly resulted in him being placed on waivers.

It's not a slam-dunk like you exaggerate, but would you care to defend Drew Miller as a guaranteed future success story? Just like Derek Meech?

Well it was my exaggeration you're talking about " crosby 2.0" and the point is simple... ritola does not matter, in fact miller does not matter, all that matters is that the real franchise players ARE in GR and will be coming up in a few years... in the mean time all we need is fodder for the 4th till they arrive.

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the wings were going to have to waive/lose somebody. as you guys have debated, there is really 2 reasons to make the decision. who is better now and who is better long term. miller is the better player now. maybe not by much, but i think thats fairly well agreed on. its the future potential that many seem to be arguing about. i am a former ahl season ticket holder and know how much prospects can get overrated, underrated, forgotten about, passed over, etc. so i can appreciate those that have followed ritola in GR and think he has more upside. however, i tend to look at it even more big picture. either one will end up as the 13th forward this year barring injuries. so the choice will most likely have little bearing. and when you think of long term, ritola is probably already behind guys like tatar, mursak, and even owens now based on their play. those guys are a couple years behind in age and still have much more room to grow. based on the fact that in the upcoming seasons we will trying to find slots for them too, i think there just wasn't much room for ritola. its unfortunate that because of injuries we got miller off waivers last year, but that extra body may have been enough to close ritolas window with the team.

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I'm going to jump in and make this short and sweet with a strong suggestion: Keep it civil, guys. Let's not get things off on the wrong foot before the season even starts.

I don't think anyone really thinks that arguing the finer points of Ritola's scenery change to Tampa and its implications is worth getting a temp suspension from the forums, right?

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Mountain out of a molehill.

I would have preferred Ritola over Miller as well. Oh well. The chances of either being anything more than a footnote this season or in the future is fairly small. As someone else already said, we have only a few forward spots opening up in the near future, and quite a few better looking prospects in the system, as well as potential FA signings.

Quincey is an interesting parallel. Quincey never would have been anything here. His chance basically ended when we re-signed Stuart. At best, he would have done well for one season and played himself out of our price range. More likely he would have continued as a borderline NHLer fighting for a roster spot.

At best, Ritola might have played himself into Modano's or Bert's spot in the next couple years, maybe make Flip expendable. More likely I think is that he would have ended up foundering in the 12-14th spot. I don't think Miller will do anything more, which is why I'd rather have kept Ritola. But is it really worth making a big deal about it?

Even if Ritola turns into an all-star this year, so what? As of right now he doesn't look any better or have more potential then Miller. No one can say it's a bad decision at this point. Holland isn't a gypsy. He doesn't have a crystal ball telling him the future. Stop acting like he has to be perfect in every prediction. Miller is only a little older, only a little more experience, and is a better player right now. That's a sound enough reason for keeping him, even if I don't particularly agree.

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the wings were going to have to waive/lose somebody. as you guys have debated, there is really 2 reasons to make the decision. who is better now and who is better long term. miller is the better player now. maybe not by much, but i think thats fairly well agreed on. its the future potential that many seem to be arguing about. i am a former ahl season ticket holder and know how much prospects can get overrated, underrated, forgotten about, passed over, etc. so i can appreciate those that have followed ritola in GR and think he has more upside. however, i tend to look at it even more big picture. either one will end up as the 13th forward this year barring injuries. so the choice will most likely have little bearing. and when you think of long term, ritola is probably already behind guys like tatar, mursak, and even owens now based on their play. those guys are a couple years behind in age and still have much more room to grow. based on the fact that in the upcoming seasons we will trying to find slots for them too, i think there just wasn't much room for ritola. its unfortunate that because of injuries we got miller off waivers last year, but that extra body may have been enough to close ritolas window with the team.

Nice post, but as for Owens, people are getting all excited about him and are down on Ritola's offensive potential and yet he's a year older than Ritz and hasn't put up the points he has.

Mursak will be up next year, but I must be alone in thinking why rush Tatar, give him a 3rd season in GR unless he shows that he's too good for the league (70 points).

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Ummm... no?

That wasn't the argument I made. You keep the ones you think are or will become NHL defenseman. Holland may have thought Quincey was good, but apparently not good enough to cut it as a defenseman in the NHL. And we're not talking about bottom pairing. He plays 20+ minutes a night.

You said Holland thought Quincey wouldn't be a good NHL defenseman. Holland didn't have the choice of keeping everyone. Granted, I was arguing even back then to keep Quincey over Lebda, and I'm still angry over that, but I think it ends up like this:

The Wings had nine significant defensemen who would have had to clear waivers. The top four, Lilja as a PK specialist makes five. Chelios for PK, leadership, depth, grit, whatever. This makes six, and leaves you the trio of Lebda, Meech, and Quincey. Lebda had the advantage of being a returning Wing, rather than someone trying to win a spot. Meech outplayed Quincey in camp and this only followed up what had happened previously in Grand Rapids and short stints in Detroit. So Holland and Babcock ended up deciding that Quincey would be the guy who missed the cut.

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I'm going to jump in and make this short and sweet with a strong suggestion: Keep it civil, guys. Let's not get things off on the wrong foot before the season even starts.

I don't think anyone really thinks that arguing the finer points of Ritola's scenery change to Tampa and its implications is worth getting a temp suspension from the forums, right?

quit deflecting from the real issue!

we need an answer now! is or isn't ritola actually crosby v2.0??!?!?!!?

:ph34r:

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quit deflecting from the real issue!

we need an answer now! is or isn't ritola actually crosby v2.0??!?!?!!?

:ph34r:

Hey, I'm still upset we had to trade Mike Knuble for a 2nd rounder to the Rags back in the day or lose him on waivers. But hell, at least we got something for him! :lol:

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You said Holland thought Quincey wouldn't be a good NHL defenseman. Holland didn't have the choice of keeping everyone. Granted, I was arguing even back then to keep Quincey over Lebda, and I'm still angry over that, but I think it ends up like this:

The Wings had nine significant defensemen who would have had to clear waivers. The top four, Lilja as a PK specialist makes five. Chelios for PK, leadership, depth, grit, whatever. This makes six, and leaves you the trio of Lebda, Meech, and Quincey. Lebda had the advantage of being a returning Wing, rather than someone trying to win a spot. Meech outplayed Quincey in camp and this only followed up what had happened previously in Grand Rapids and short stints in Detroit. So Holland and Babcock ended up deciding that Quincey would be the guy who missed the cut.

Honestly it sounds like at the heart of it we sort of agree on the situation.

I think choosing to keep Chelios is what brought the situation to a head with their young defenseman. It painted them into a corner. I won't bother with the semantics argument. My main point was that of course a lot of the blame has to go to Quincey for not being able to clearly outplay Meech. But it's also Holland's job to recognize talent in young players. It was a tough call, and in retrospect, not the the right one. Such is life.

I'm going to jump in and make this short and sweet with a strong suggestion: Keep it civil, guys. Let's not get things off on the wrong foot before the season even starts.

I don't think anyone really thinks that arguing the finer points of Ritola's scenery change to Tampa and its implications is worth getting a temp suspension from the forums, right?

Matt!

Always good to see you around, even if it's to give us all a much needed smackdown. :P

Is a preseason suspension really so out of the question? I mean, Cammalleri managed it.

It would be pretty funny if Ritola turned into a stud. Yzerman already showing up his old boss. :D

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Because we just lost a very, very solid prospect for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Gosh I hate waivers, and I hate this aspect about the NHL. How you can put years and years od development into someone and have them lost for nothing. Ritola can clearly play in the NHL, he has a great skill level, a good work ethic, he'll hit, he can play on both special teams, and he's only 23. He'll prove to be a very solid NHL player and we've lost him for nothing, all so Miller can spend one more season with Detroit.

What a joke.

Ah I see, we've never made a mistake? Gotcha. :thumbup:

Exactly what i was going to say. Give the prospect a bit more time to show what he can do and adjust to the league rather then saying at this given time miller is a hair better. Ritola has better upside clearly give him some time in the league to show what he can do. Stamkos did s***ty his first year, but after some adjusting...not saying ritola has anyware near stamkos' same kind of upside but....he WILL be better then Miller sooner rather then later...

Miller is nothing great he was waived and passed on by a number of teams. This team leans towards favoring older players too much at the expense of the kids. I think they take it too far.

People always say Detroit has a winning history so management and their decisions should not be questioned. I disagree. Management can be great in a number of ways, maybe all but one, lets not say they are perfect in everything. This is one area i think they they should be questioned to an extent.

They keep their team a bit too soft, small and old. I would much rather of seen Mursac stick around then one of the other players. He would be dangerous, especially paired with Helm. Their speed would create problems for other teams and create scoring opportunities.

Edited by Probie

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Wait, huh. Ritola was a highly touted prospect? @_@

What planet are u living on bro. Will he better then Miller? Who knows. But it was the right decision going forward for a team trying to win now not 5 years from now.

Maybe highly touted was an exaggeration, but he was seen as being a potential point producer. I don't think Miller will ever be more than a bottom 6 guy, and I doubt anyone disagree with that. And while Ritola may never be better, I think he was worth the shot as we have tons of bottom 6 guys.

Either way I'm happy. I love Miller and I'm happy to keep him (seriously, I like him more than Ritola, but I'm trying to be objective, because I obviously always am), so there is no need to turn this into a huge debate. It's really not important. Let's look forward to raping the rest of the league this season. Can't wait until Friday. Go look at my naked Filppulas.

Edited by Z and D for the C

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