How Long has Huds got?

[Booster313 138]

Hindsight? He was one of the best wingers in the game. He's a complete player with more hustle than the majority of guys in the league, despite bona fide star status. He's willing to take an incredibly reasonable amount of money on the cap hit to sign long term and you don't want to let two mid-level guys who have been nothing but inconsistent from the start go to sign him??? It was an absolute no-brainer to me and it still bugs me to this day that they didn't have the spine to let a couple of our guys walk for a guy like Hossa who wanted to be here as much as anyone. Who cares where he developed!?!

His worth proportional to the money he was aiming for trumps all. Hudler and Flip are/were overpaid for guys who were/are unproven as consistent players (relative to their idealized roles). Hossa was/is a superstar willing to take a significant pay cut to play here. I try not to question Holland and company as much as some, and generally I think he makes good decisions, but letting Hossa go to keep Flip and Huds in the fold still strikes me as one of his few more idiotic decisions. I get some of his controversial moves, even the ones I don't like. I still don't get or like the Hossa decision one bit.

I think it's not about Hossa vs Hudler and Flip... but Hossa vs Franzen. The Red Wings have said that they didn't want to and cannot afford to take on more LT contracts like Zetterberg and Franzen, that's their limit, it works great now but in 5-7 years it will be a lot of top heavy weight for two players at the twilight of their careers.

[Shaman 713]

I never say anything intelligent? Ok if youre so smart show me in your post where you said you were talking about points only? You said Flip is on pace for 38 points but no one is all over him.

Well no one is all over him because he plays in all situations, is good defensively, and is quick.

But thanks for the lesson there shaman and sharing that wisdom of yours which you have generously bestowed on all of us here at LGW

You dont think Babcock has a lot of say on who he wants on this team?

My point as I keep coming to is that Flip is given a lot more rope despite the fact he does not have the offensive ability to play as a legit second line center, but are throwing Hudler under the bus after less than a quarter of a season. I understand that he is great fore checking and all but for abit more money you can get someone like Jordan Staal, who does all that and still is a 50+ a point a year guy at 22. I mean seriously 8 points so far out of a 2nd line center is a joke in this league. FFS hes 68th that puts him in the mid range 3rd line center. But Hudler is the whipping boy even though his PPG isn't really that much lower than Flips. Mark my words he will be a career third liner center, Dats and Z will be broken up and our first line will be a lot less dangerous. I wish I could find the posts where people on this board were saying Flip was going to get 65-80 points this season, because the homer glasses people wear for this guy are amazing

/rant

[VM1138 1,921]

My point as I keep coming to is that Flip is given a lot more rope despite the fact he does not have the offensive ability to play as a legit second line center, but are throwing Hudler under the bus after less than a quarter of a season. I understand that he is great fore checking and all but for abit more money you can get someone like Jordan Staal, who does all that and still is a 50+ a point a year guy at 22. I mean seriously 8 points so far out of a 2nd line center is a joke in this league. FFS hes 68th that puts him in the mid range 3rd line center. But Hudler is the whipping boy even though his PPG isn't really that much lower than Flips. Mark my words he will be a career third liner center, Dats and Z will be broken up and our first line will be a lot less dangerous. I wish I could find the posts where people on this board were saying Flip was going to get 65-80 points this season, because the homer glasses people wear for this guy are amazing

/rant

I agree about Flip. I've always been skeptical of FLip, because every year is the same story. "This will be his breakout year!" and he's always been pretty forgettable out there. Oh, sure, once in a while he'll have a pretty play, but every player has great games here and there. I don't dislike him and I don't mind him on the team, and I'm always leery of losing players who could develop, but he's never really done much of anything on the Wings. He's decent enough but he's not a game changer. Just a reliable 3rd liner.

[kook_10 1,705]

You dont think Babcock has a lot of say on who he wants on this team?

While I'm sure Babcock's opinion is held very highly, Kenny is the one who has to make it a reality and reconcile business and hockey operations and most importantly fill the needs of the club.. So if it's scoring that the team needed wouldn't we get a better return out of Flip? He actually has marketable value when he doesn't score. Babs is a pro and is perfectly capable of both working with personnel not of his choosing and also of understanding the constraints of the business side of the team.

***The more I think of it though the more I waver because if we could dump huds for a much smaller contract, maybe we could open up enough space for a nice deadline pickup.

Edited November 26, 2010 by kook_10

[eva unit zero 271]

Although, I've never heard that Feds wanted to come back, officially, you don't think the salary cap had anything to do with Federov not coming back here?

And Feds spurned Illitch a LOT more than Hudler did. As much as I don't like Hudler, if he hadn't left last year, we'd have had a bad salary crunch. We're lucky he left for the year, because we managed to fill our team up with Bert and Eaves, and later on Miller (not including Williams, cause he sucked).

1) Fedorov left Detroit before there was a salary cap.

2) Fedorov was offered a five-year contract by the Wings, and asked for some time to think about it. When he returned to accept, he was given a four-year contract worth $40m. He wanted a five year deal, and management, which had originally offered him one, told him it was not going to happen.

Fedorov left Detroit because he was disrespected by management. It was not Fedorov that slapped the Wings in the face; it was the other way around. Fedorov left for a five-year deal in Anaheim worth $40m, basically playing a free year compared to the offer the Wings had given him.

Hudler didn't spurn Ilitch. Hudler filed for arbitration on day one of free agency. ensuring he would have a contract with Detroit if the Wings wanted him. When negotiations with Holland were slow, and he was offered the KHL deal, Hudler signed it, with the exception that he had an option out after the first year. This wasn't a "screw you guys, I'm going home" move or he would have demanded a trade instead of coming back.

[Shady Ultima 40]

1) Fedorov left Detroit before there was a salary cap.

Well, you missed the point. I was talking about rumours that Feds was coming back in 2008. I know what happened back in 2003, when he left for Anaheim.

[Z and D for the C 712]

I don't understand all the picking on Hudler when Flippula is on pace for a 38 point season and has yet to have a break out season everyone here has been predicting for years on end. Ya he gets hot, but when hes cold, hes freezing.

Filppula does a lot more than score.

[Shaman 713]

Filppula does a lot more than score.

See above post...

[Guest mindfly]

Hindsight? He was one of the best wingers in the game. He's a complete player with more hustle than the majority of guys in the league, despite bona fide star status. He's willing to take an incredibly reasonable amount of money on the cap hit to sign long term and you don't want to let two mid-level guys who have been nothing but inconsistent from the start go to sign him??? It was an absolute no-brainer to me and it still bugs me to this day that they didn't have the spine to let a couple of our guys walk for a guy like Hossa who wanted to be here as much as anyone. Who cares where he developed!?!

His worth proportional to the money he was aiming for trumps all. Hudler and Flip are/were overpaid for guys who were/are unproven as consistent players (relative to their idealized roles). Hossa was/is a superstar willing to take a significant pay cut to play here. I try not to question Holland and company as much as some, and generally I think he makes good decisions, but letting Hossa go to keep Flip and Huds in the fold still strikes me as one of his few more idiotic decisions. I get some of his controversial moves, even the ones I don't like. I still don't get or like the Hossa decision one bit.

Ken holland is far from perfect and the hossa situation was a failure imo, should have kept him and let go of hudler and filppula, i just don't understand how he could get a 3.5M contract mind-boggling

[mmamolo 287]

See: Leino, Kuznetsov, Fleishman, Ritola, Mattias. Ya, they don't give up on players. Bottom line, you don't produce and/or you can get us something better (Fleishman, Kuznetsov, Mattias) or cap relief (Leino, Ritola), you are out(Hudler.)

Try reading my original post before making uninformed comments in regards to it. Trading cap casualties (which I said Hudler coudl become) or prospects are not giving up on players. Every player you named in that post is one or the other. Obviously at certain points Holland, just like every GM, has traded away some home grown talents but Hollan almost never does it. He especially doesnt do it when they've proven what they can do and the organization believes they can reach that success again. So your point of if you don't produce is ridiculous because each of the guys you listed (with the exception of Leino) never even had the chance. Leino was only moved to clear space for Franzen and if you read comments made by Holland he even said made reference to such.

Listen, before Hudler left for Russia, he was offered a $3.5M contract in which he turned own and went to arbitration. He ran to Russia for more money and was awarded a lessor contract with the Wings than he was offered before arbitration. Now he runs back crying and doesn't produce, he will now be gone, because Mike Ilitch has the control, NOT the player.

The Fedorov comaprison? He turned down a contract from Ilitch, then later when he was offered a lessor one, he left for Anaheim. Then in 2008 when Fedorov wanted to come back via the trade deadline and even though some folks in the organization wanted him back, someone in the higer ups (possibly Ilitch) told Holland NO. Thats the only comparison. You don't spite the owner. Especially an owner with the power of Mr. Ilitch.

That being explained, have a great career Hudler, hope Russia was worth it! Trade him to the Island for a 2nd rouder, which will end up a pick in the 30's...

That's not at all how the Fedorov situation played out. Plus, Hudler came out and said the only team he wanted to play for in the NHL was Detroit. We couldnt have fit him under the cap last season anyways. He went to Russia with Detroit blessing. Had he left against Detroit's wishes they wouldn't have accepted his arbitration or at the very least he wouldn't have been welcomed back.

You're trying to discuss with somebody who always responds like he's on a soapbox and has always obsessively hated Hudler even when he was doing good.

It's obviously blind hatred. This guy is a moron

Although, I've never heard that Feds wanted to come back, officially, you don't think the salary cap had anything to do with Federov not coming back here?

And Feds spurned Illitch a LOT more than Hudler did. As much as I don't like Hudler, if he hadn't left last year, we'd have had a bad salary crunch. We're lucky he left for the year, because we managed to fill our team up with Bert and Eaves, and later on Miller (not including Williams, cause he sucked).

The Fedorov situation and Hudler situation aren't even comparable.

1) Fedorov left Detroit before there was a salary cap.

2) Fedorov was offered a five-year contract by the Wings, and asked for some time to think about it. When he returned to accept, he was given a four-year contract worth $40m. He wanted a five year deal, and management, which had originally offered him one, told him it was not going to happen.

Fedorov left Detroit because he was disrespected by management. It was not Fedorov that slapped the Wings in the face; it was the other way around. Fedorov left for a five-year deal in Anaheim worth $40m, basically playing a free year compared to the offer the Wings had given him.

Hudler didn't spurn Ilitch. Hudler filed for arbitration on day one of free agency. ensuring he would have a contract with Detroit if the Wings wanted him. When negotiations with Holland were slow, and he was offered the KHL deal, Hudler signed it, with the exception that he had an option out after the first year. This wasn't a "screw you guys, I'm going home" move or he would have demanded a trade instead of coming back.

exactly

Well, you missed the point. I was talking about rumours that Feds was coming back in 2008. I know what happened back in 2003, when he left for Anaheim.

wow, talk about grasping at straws.

[Z and D for the C 712]

See above post...

And your mad that people aren't throwing Flip under the bus as well. The thing is Filppula has almost twice the points Hudler has (and 4 times the goals), while doing everything else Flip does on a regular basis that Hudler can't and will never do. And even though he isn't putting up points like he did in the first 7 games of the season, only a fool would deny that he has looked good and is creating opportunities. Is he playing to the best of his ability right now? Absolutely not, but it's not like he is the only player on his line, or like he is the only player on his line not producing.

Hudler has a better shot than Flip, and he is a bit more creative offensively. Everything else is either even (passing) or +Flip.

[Shaman 713]

And your mad that people aren't throwing Flip under the bus as well. The thing is Filppula has almost twice the points Hudler has (and 4 times the goals), while doing everything else Flip does on a regular basis that Hudler can't and will never do. And even though he isn't putting up points like he did in the first 7 games of the season, only a fool would deny that he has looked good and is creating opportunities. Is he playing to the best of his ability right now? Absolutely not, but it's not like he is the only player on his line, or like he is the only player on his line not producing.

Hudler has a better shot than Flip, and he is a bit more creative offensively. Everything else is either even (passing) or +Flip.

My dearest Flip slappy:

What does Flip do that puts him on par with any current second line forward in the league? With his (lack of) offensive ability and defensive prowess he really is a 3rd line center. I hate to agree with Eva but hes right, Hudler right now is more a victim of Babcock not putting him on a line where he can produce than just not producing because of lack of will. There are very few players who can make the players around them better, we have 3 in Lids, Z and Dats. Hudler isn't one of them, Flippula definitely isn't one of them so I really can't see why people are blaming Hudler. I think Huds and Flip actually complement eachother very well and I hope they are line mates again. My point here is that the real story here isn't Hudler isn't producing after a quarter of a season on the third line, its that Flip is playing with a power forward who is a legit goal scorer, getting second line minutes and power play time and is still on pace for a 40 point season.

[Z and D for the C 712]

My dearest Flip slappy:

I'm under the impression I'm everyone's dearest Flip slappy.

What does Flip do that puts him on par with any current second line forward in the league? With his (lack of) offensive ability and defensive prowess he really is a 3rd line center. I hate to agree with Eva but hes right, Hudler right now is more a victim of Babcock not putting him on a line where he can produce than just not producing because of lack of will. There are very few players who can make the players around them better, we have 3 in Lids, Z and Dats. Hudler isn't one of them, Flippula definitely isn't one of them so I really can't see why people are blaming Hudler. I think Huds and Flip actually complement eachother very well and I hope they are line mates again. My point here is that the real story here isn't Hudler isn't producing after a quarter of a season on the third line, its that Flip is playing with a power forward who is a legit goal scorer, getting second line minutes and power play time and is still on pace for a 40 point season.

I guess you'll just have to watch him play. He is great battling along the boards and he might be the best at skating the puck through the zone with speed. The only one you could argue is better is Pav but you rarely see him do it. He cycles the puck well and is an excellent passer. He is a second line player, period. You don't get 8 points in 3 games unless you have offensive talent.

You're right, Filppula isn't going to make the players around him better, but when he is on a line with 3 good players that the playing to their potential, he will contribute a lot. Lately he has been playing with a snake bitten Franzen (3 goals in the past 11 games) and an ineffective Hudler.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Wow, another endless Hudler and Filppula debate.

That's never happened in here before.

*awaiting the IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T POST IN HERE* response

*shrugs*

[Konnan511 1,736]

Hudler got an aissit tonight. Hudler > OV

Edited November 27, 2010 by Konnan511

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Hudler got an aissit tonight. Hudler > OV

Hudler for OV and a 2nd round pick?

[Konnan511 1,736]

Hudler for OV and a 2nd round pick?

Wow, worst trade ever. Maybe add a first and Green and/or Semin or backstrom, and maybe it's a fair deal.

[Shaman 713]

Wow, worst trade ever. Maybe add a first, Green Semin and backstrom, and maybe it's a fair deal.

Fixed

But still its not quite fair...Lets throw in a 5th round pick and make it three way with Pittsburgh for Crosby and Malkin.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Shaman464

[Konnan511 1,736]

Fixed

But still its not quite fair...Lets throw in a 5th round pick and make it three way with Pittsburgh for Crosby and Malkin.

We might have to sweeten the pot, throw in Draper.

[Shady Ultima 40]

The Fedorov situation and Hudler situation aren't even comparable.

Thanks for saying EXACTLY what I was saying! I try to say that Federov's leaving in '03 and rumoured return in '08 was different than Hudler leaving for the year. I even said it was good he left for us, because of the cap. But hey, thanks for actually paying attention.

wow, talk about grasping at straws.

And I'm confused as to how I'm grasping at straws. You're not even READING my posts. I said Fed's rumoured return in '08 may not have happened because of the cap, and Eva pointed out there was no cap in '03. I just was pointing out that it doesn't matter about '03, I was talking about '08.

Seriously, READ my post. I don't hate Hudler. I was upset when he left, but I realized later on, it was for the best, because we got Bertuzzi and Eaves out of it, and didn't lose anything really. Now he's back, and as poorly as he's playing, I have no hatred or even dislike towards him. I want him to play better, because he's a Red Wing. I support all our player.

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

Guess he's got lots of time with modano out.

[henrik40 76]

I'd say Huds has roughly 6 weeks to 3 months now.

[russianswede919293 95]

My dearest Flip slappy:

What does Flip do that puts him on par with any current second line forward in the league? With his (lack of) offensive ability and defensive prowess he really is a 3rd line center. I hate to agree with Eva but hes right, Hudler right now is more a victim of Babcock not putting him on a line where he can produce than just not producing because of lack of will. There are very few players who can make the players around them better, we have 3 in Lids, Z and Dats. Hudler isn't one of them, Flippula definitely isn't one of them so I really can't see why people are blaming Hudler. I think Huds and Flip actually complement eachother very well and I hope they are line mates again. My point here is that the real story here isn't Hudler isn't producing after a quarter of a season on the third line, its that Flip is playing with a power forward who is a legit goal scorer, getting second line minutes and power play time and is still on pace for a 40 point season.

Filppula also was one of the Wings best players in a close 3rd period where Hudler was on the bench the whole time in favor of a 3-line rotation...

Why is that, because Filppula devotes himself to playing brilliant 2-way hockey. The more he plays on the PP and the more he gets going Filppula will reach a 50-60 pts per season offensive potential. Maybe not this year, but he will hit it at some point.

THat is about the same potential as Hudler has, and Hudler doesn't skate hard to the back-check on defense.

That is why Filppula gets the playing time.

I love Hudler and want him to bust out and get going again, but right now FIlppula has done nothing but impress me.

[chrisdetroit 189]

If you had a valid point, it went out the window.

Besides, it's "computer".

Yea, and calling people "retarded" and pointing out typos gives you alot of credibility.

[henrik40 76]

Man oh man, a Hudler and/or Filppula thread can really bring out the best in people.