Retire Osgood's #30?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

There should be no debate when it comes to putting an number up in the rafters at the Joe. The Red Wings aren't a mickey mouse organization that retires a jersey every year.

There are 57 Wings alumni in the Hall of Fame (47 as players).

There are 6 numbers hanging from the rafters (with Red Kelly getting the shaft for a reason only known to the Ilitch family).

People who aren't hanging from the rafters despite being way more deserving than Ozzy:

Red Kelly-- The greatest defenseman of his era and a key Red Wing who shares the same first frigging name with the team.

Marcel Pronovost-- Played first 15 seasons for Wings, won 4 cups in the 50's with that dynasty. Key member of the Cup winning team when they lost Howe in the 1950 semi-finals. It's total bulls*** that his number (3) wasn't retired by the Wings.

Syd Howe-- The leader for those olde time cups no one remembers because they happened in like 1701. But he had a totally cool last name and the credentials to be considered the main guy of that era of Wings hockey.

Roger Crozier-- played his first 8 seasons with the Wings, won 0 cups but was the Conn Smythe winner in the Wings' 66 loss to the Habs. Won Calder trophy as a Wing as well. Doesn't really have the resume to get his number up there but he was the Ozzy of his era.

John Ogrodnick-- Hilarious name but also a very good hockey player.

Mickey Redmond-- 50 goal scorer twice and he says funny old man stuff during broadcasts.

John Bucyk-- traded by Adams in retardedly one-sided deal to Bruins for way past-his-prime Sawchuk. Went on to become a demi-god in Boston and got his very own HoF ring.

Ok, so the last 3 obviously aren't serious. But if the first 4 guys can't have their numbers hanging from the rafters then I don't think Ozzy is justified.

I do think Ozzy should get serious consideration for the Hall of Fame but a lot depends on what happens with the other comparable goalies of his era who haven't had a chance to make the ballot yet.

[eva unit zero 271]

or unworthy.

Let's start with the fact that I don't hate Osgood as some of you may think. I just don't like him playing....in today's NHL.

He's actually about middle of the pack stats wise when compared to other HoF goalies.

He's got 3 cups, but there are some HoF goalies with 6 and several with none. He's 10th in games won, but not all 9 of the others are in the HoF.

Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour and Curtis Joseph are the other three among the top ten not in the HHOF. Brodeur is still playing, Joseph is not eligible until after next season, and Belfour was only eligible for the first time this past summer. Hardly a worthwhile argument.

His stats place him in a spot where he could make it in (and I doubt many would complain), but there is nothing that comparatively makes him stand out as someone deserving of the honor. It seems to me that the thing that puts a goalie in the HoF is his ability to make a mark on the game. Osgood's only mark is how long he's played.

Osgood is one of the five best goaltenders of an era known for its low scoring. His first losing season in the NHL was at age 37 in his 16th season, one in which he played through both illness and injury. Osgood is a winner, and a big game goalie. His best performances have come when it counts the most, and he is one of the most accomplished playoff netminders of all-time. To argue that he doesn't deserve the Hall is just silly. Especially after he passes Fuhr and Hall on the wins list.

[eva unit zero 271]

There should be no debate when it comes to putting an number up in the rafters at the Joe. The Red Wings aren't a mickey mouse organization that retires a jersey every year.

There are 57 Wings alumni in the Hall of Fame (47 as players).

There are 6 numbers hanging from the rafters (with Red Kelly getting the shaft for a reason only known to the Ilitch family).

People who aren't hanging from the rafters despite being way more deserving than Ozzy:

Red Kelly-- The greatest defenseman of his era and a key Red Wing who shares the same first frigging name with the team.

Marcel Pronovost-- Played first 15 seasons for Wings, won 4 cups in the 50's with that dynasty. Key member of the Cup winning team when they lost Howe in the 1950 semi-finals. It's total bulls*** that his number (3) wasn't retired by the Wings.

Syd Howe-- The leader for those olde time cups no one remembers because they happened in like 1701. But he had a totally cool last name and the credentials to be considered the main guy of that era of Wings hockey.

Roger Crozier-- played his first 8 seasons with the Wings, won 0 cups but was the Conn Smythe winner in the Wings' 66 loss to the Habs. Won Calder trophy as a Wing as well. Doesn't really have the resume to get his number up there but he was the Ozzy of his era.

John Ogrodnick-- Hilarious name but also a very good hockey player.

Mickey Redmond-- 50 goal scorer twice and he says funny old man stuff during broadcasts.

John Bucyk-- traded by Adams in retardedly one-sided deal to Bruins for way past-his-prime Sawchuk. Went on to become a demi-god in Boston and got his very own HoF ring.

Ok, so the last 3 obviously aren't serious. But if the first 4 guys can't have their numbers hanging from the rafters then I don't think Ozzy is justified.

I do think Ozzy should get serious consideration for the Hall of Fame but a lot depends on what happens with the other comparable goalies of his era who haven't had a chance to make the ballot yet.

Kelly's the only one who could be argued seriously ahead of Ozzy. And he should have been up there a long time ago. The numbers when Ozzy retires should read like this:

1 - Terry Sawchuk

4 - Red Kelly

5 - Nicklas Lidstrom

6 - Larry Aurie

7 - Ted Lindsay

9 - Gordie Howe

10 - Alex Delvecchio

12 - Sid Abel

19 - Steve Yzerman

30 - Chris Osgood

Fedorov definitely deserves the honor as well given that he was an elite forward for ten years as a Wing, but it will never happen.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Kelly's the only one who could be argued seriously ahead of Ozzy. And he should have been up there a long time ago. The numbers when Ozzy retires should read like this:

1 - Terry Sawchuk

4 - Red Kelly

5 - Nicklas Lidstrom

6 - Larry Aurie

7 - Ted Lindsay

9 - Gordie Howe

10 - Alex Delvecchio

12 - Sid Abel

19 - Steve Yzerman

30 - Chris Osgood

Fedorov definitely deserves the honor as well given that he was an elite forward for ten years as a Wing, but it will never happen.

Fedorov's biggest knock is that his number is greater than 20. Clearly the Wings are biased towards retiring low numbers. I'm happy with the number of retired prime numbers but that's mostly due to the fact that all the retired numbers are less than 20.

Wait-- what's your arguement against Pronovost? The only knock agaisnt him is that he wasn't one of the top 3 stars on the Cup teams (aside from possibly the 1950 team since Howe was injured).

[eva unit zero 271]

Fedorov's biggest knock is that his number is greater than 20. Clearly the Wings are biased towards retiring low numbers. I'm happy with the number of retired prime numbers but that's mostly due to the fact that all the retired numbers are less than 20.

Wait-- what's your arguement against Pronovost? The only knock agaisnt him is that he wasn't one of the top 3 stars on the Cup teams (aside from possibly the 1950 team since Howe was injured).

Pronovost was a great defenseman, but he won't be retired. For his time there were many better defensemen, something that can't be said of any of the guys I listed. He never had a season where he could be argued legitimately as the best at his position; his best was two First-Team selections behind Doug Harvey.

[Reds4Life 51]

So being tenth in wins all-time is average now?

Are you kidding me? TEAMS win games. Awarding wins just to goalies is incredibly stupid.

Osgood was NEVER the best goalie in the game, never. He is an average goalie, nothing more, nothing less.

[eva unit zero 271]

Are you kidding me? TEAMS win games. Awarding wins just to goalies is incredibly stupid.

Osgood was NEVER the best goalie in the game, never. He is an average goalie, nothing more, nothing less.

He was the best in 1995-96. And through the 90s he was always among the best. Osgood is not an average goalie. Manny Legace, Manny Fernandez, and Dwayne Roloson are/were average goalies.

[Barrie 900]

4th best... You forget Hasek.

Nope I didn't forget Hasek.

After his 400th? Yeah, I think he deserves the HHOF AND a retired Number. C'mon look at the stats! The man is one of the BEST Goalies EVER. To be honest, if you think he doesn't you're crazy. He is more than likely going to retire as a Red Wing, with everything he has contributed to the team I WANT that # up there. Lidstrom and Osgood deserve to be up there together. Is it sacred ground? Surely, and these two are the best still left of those teams. Draper and Holmstrom did not provide like them so NO they don't need to be retired. Neither does Shannahan or Fedorov, they left and even if they contributed like Yzerman they weren't "The Captain" or our goalie or 6-Time Norris Trophy winner.

Tell me number 30 wouldn't look good up there with 5!

Right, from this current 20 year run, I don't think it's out of the question to have 5, 19, and 30 retired, with 13 and 40 to follow in the next 10 years or so.

Osgood is such and interesting debate, on the surface it's a no, but looking at his numbers, how can it not be? They guy's done it all!

[thedisappearer 291]

And through the 90s he was always among the best. Osgood is not an average goalie. Manny Legace, Manny Fernandez, and Dwayne Roloson are/were average goalies.[/font]

He continually finished outside the top 10 in S% and GAA. Get over it.

[Barrie 900]

He continually finished outside the top 10 in S% and GAA. Get over it.

The debate about Osgood I find similar to Derek Jeter. For years I've heard about some sort of range factor number that says Jeter is a below average Short Stop, however when it comes to Championships, clutch performances, and guys that can handle the pressure of a big game, Jeter's da man! The same can be said for Osgood.

Personally I think some stats are overrated. Winning should take a precedence over some stats, because that's why they play, is to win.

[eva unit zero 271]

He continually finished outside the top 10 in S% and GAA. Get over it.

Shots on goal is not always a perfect statistic because of blocked shots. If Lidstrom takes an unscreened shot from the point, it will probably be stopped, right? What if that shot is blocked instead? The same result, but the goalie's stats aren't affected.

Example:

If the Wings take 40 shots against LA with no blocked shots, and score 4 goals, then Quick's sv% is .900, right? But what if some of those 40 are blocked? Now we only have, say, 33 shots on goal. The high quality chances were still there, so the goals still happened; blind shots from the point are unlikely to get through and go in. So now Quick's sv% is .879, simply because his team performed better on defense.

It's not simply a matter of "this guy stops a higher percentage of shots, so he's better" because the stat does not account for whether it was a one-timer from the low slot or a puck flipped on net from outside the blue line.

[Barrie 900]

Posted in the "HOF Stats" discussion, but should be here too...

It's if Ozzie should go in the hall of fame or not, but could be used to decide if his number should be retired or not.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/12/red_wings_statistician_offers.html

DETROIT -- Whether Detroit Red Wings goaltender Chris Osgood deserves to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame likely will continue to be debated.

Red Wings statistician Greg Innis offered a statistical analysis in Osgood's favor. Here is what Innis wrote:

1. There are 31 players currently enshrined in the Hockey Hall of Fame who played exclusively as a goaltender in the NHL or its fore-runners (PCHL or NHA). Only 6 of those 31 (Patrick Roy, Terry Sawchuk, Jacques Plante, Tony Esposito, Glenn Hall and Grant Fuhr) have won more games than Osgood (400).

2. Osgood currently has 50 regular season shutouts. Only 14 of those H.O.F. goalies have more.

3. Osgood has had just one regular-season in which he finished below .500. That was 2009-10, when he posted a 7-9-4 record. Of those goalies in the H.O.F., only three can make that claim (Ken Dryden 0, Bill Durnan 1 & Patrick Roy 1).

4. Osgood has been on three Stanley Cup-winning teams. Nineteen of the goalies in the H.O.F. have been on less.

5. In the playoffs, Osgood has won 74 games. Only four H.O.F. netminders have won more (Patrick Roy, Grant Fuhr, Billy Smith and Ken Dryden).

6. Osgood has recorded 15 postseason shutouts. Only Patrick Roy (23) has more among goalies in the Hall.

7. Of the 10 netminders who reached the 400-win plateau, only Martin Brodeur did it quicker (720 games, compared to Osgood's 742).

8. Some who are opposed to Osgood becoming a member of the H.O.F. claim that he was "surrounded" by great players. True, but consider the fact that Ken Dryden is in the Hall, and in his final NHL season, 1978-79, nine of his Montreal teammates are in, as well. Or how about Johnny Bower? He, along with nine of his teammates from the 1967 Maple Leafs team are enshrined.

[Reds4Life 51]

He was the best in 1995-96. And through the 90s he was always among the best. Osgood is not an average goalie. Manny Legace, Manny Fernandez, and Dwayne Roloson are/were average goalies.

How is Osgood any better than Roloson?

Osgood is a compiler, lucky to play for the Wings - behind one of the best defenses in the league for most of his career. If he hadn't joined Wings, there would be no discussion about HHOF or retiring numbers. It would be a disgrace to retire his number.

As for his 3 Cups? The first one - Osgood was no.2 goalie; the second Cup - Wings won despite Osgood's piss poor performance; 3rd Cup - Osgood was great. One great playoff run does not make him HHOFer.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Reds4Life

[Echolalia 2,961]

He's had a hell of a career, but I just don't see his number hanging from the rafters. The very fact that we even have to debate it speaks volumes against his chances. He's good, but he's not on the same level as Yzerman, Howe, and co.

[Citizen Kirk 0]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, didn't read through the entire thread, but how would you all feel if the Wings did something like a Ring of Honor? With the sheer amount of great players that wear and have worn the winged wheel, I think that the rafters need to be reserved for the most special of players to keep it as big of an honor as it is. We need to avoid that slippery slope of "wel if _____ gets in, then _____ should get in too!" If we start thinking like that, we'll start running out of numbers that aren't lame. With that being said, we've also seen enough talent roll through JLA that deserve some form of immortality and recognition. I think a Ring of Honor would be a cool way of giving guys like Shanny, Federov, Probert, etc., that piece of immortality they earned while still keeping the rafters of the Joe a sacred area.

[Holmstrom96 347]

Osgood's number won't be retired. He's good, but not that good. The only number I can see hanging up soon is Lidstrom's 5.

[crotty99 302]

Somewhat related: http://baroque97ramblings.blogspot.com/2011/01/detroit-red-wing-chris-osgood-hall-of.html

Really good write up about Osgood's chances to make the Hall of Fame. Good read.

[Reds4Life 51]

Somewhat related: http://baroque97ramblings.blogspot.com/2011/01/detroit-red-wing-chris-osgood-hall-of.html

Really good write up about Osgood's chances to make the Hall of Fame. Good read.

That is incredibly simplified article, written by someone who knows nothing about hockey history and how different the game was in different eras.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Ozzie most likely will not be in the rafters. The standards to be up there are very very high (I mean, just look up there!). I have always appreciated the things he has done while in the winged wheel and will always be one of the favorites for Wings fans all over for his demeanor and the great play when it mattered most. #5 is next and probably the only for a very long time to hang in the Joe's and new arena's rafters.

[KonstantAdvisor 4]

He's had a hell of a career, but I just don't see his number hanging from the rafters. The very fact that we even have to debate it speaks volumes against his chances. He's good, but he's not on the same level as Yzerman, Howe, and co.

I've read comments like this in more than one place and am really shocked this discussion has reached 10 pages. I'm not going to quote every one, because I think this one sums up the double standards and highly selective memory of fans who never had their faith riding on Detroit's non-Osgood goaltenders.

If you think #30 shouldn't hang next to #5, I think it's a huge slap in the face to any fan of #1. The fact that #1 won his last Cup in Toronto is something Detroit fans can never change, but Osgood came back after being traded and took the Red Wings to the SCF twice.

So I'm going to chalk it up to sour grapes, but I find it embarrassing that so-called fans of Detroit work so hard to forget and discredit their champions - anyone who has further doubts can check the Captain's Log.

[LeftWinger 4,962]

If he gets elected to the Hall, then retire his number. Not before. The Joe's rafters are reserved for the best. HOF'er, hang the sweater.

[crotty99 302]

That is incredibly simplified article, written by someone who knows nothing about hockey history and how different the game was in different eras.

Oh sorry, sometimes I forget that lgw is filled with experts and professionals. I'll keep amateur opinions to myself next time.

..just saying, I thought the number breakdown was very interesting and he made some good points in the article.

[LeftWinger 4,962]

Are you kidding me? TEAMS win games. Awarding wins just to goalies is incredibly stupid.

Osgood was NEVER the best goalie in the game, never. He is an average goalie, nothing more, nothing less.

So, using that theory, lets not give any of the 9 goalies ahead of Osgood ANY credit. Especially those Broduer and Roy characters, just look at the teams they played for, hell, my Gramma could've won in Colorado or New Jersey... Pfft, 600 wins, Marty is average, put him on Florida his whole career and he doesn't have 200 wins...

strange, since Yzerman never won the Hart or Richard award,I guess he was never the best center in the game, ever. Hell, without his teammates he doesn't have 1063 assists without his teammates. Brett Hull was average until Adam Oates played with him, I guess Hull doesn't deserve his HOF induction or number retired.

Edited January 5, 2011 by LeftWinger

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Are you kidding me? TEAMS win games. Awarding wins just to goalies is incredibly stupid.

Osgood was NEVER the best goalie in the game, never. He is an average goalie, nothing more, nothing less.

While I agree he's never been the best goalie in the game, he's above an average goalie. An average goalie does not have a 16 year career in the NHL.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Osgood is not legendary in any way like those before him.

Osgood will likely not make the HOF.

Osgood should not have his number hanging from the rafters. However he is better than a lot of you downers say.