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achildr1

Retire Osgood's #30?

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In my opinion, rafter spots should be reserved for franchise type players and/or lines. Ozzy was never a franchise type player. He was a decent enough goaltender who played on the cheap. He was affordable and adequate. Not rafter material imo. May as well retire Draper's number while your at it.

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To be honest I think that 'those players' hold the ability to:

* remain a goaltender in the NHL for 18 years, 13 as a starter

* retain said position mostly on the most winning team in the league for roughly 1/5-1/4 of the NHL's existence (when they could have easily afforded someone else for most of it)

* be top 10 all time in goalie wins for both regular season and the playoffs

* be the all-time wins leader for the franchise

in a lot higher regard than you seem to. Hell, I'd even wager that some of them would find the notion that you think they'd be slighted to have such an individual alongside them ridiculous.

Never said they would be slighted by it I said some of them might not think he deserves to get his jersey retired. None of us know what those players think is what my point is.

Ozzie has no individual awards at all, he has team awards. He doesn't have a high career save percentage and he was basically never even the go to starter. The wings usually ran a 1a 1b system.

Having a lot of wins just shows he was with the team for a long time and the teams were consistently good. Ozzie helped with that but was never the main or really even a huge factor in that. You could have put a lot of goalies on the wings and they would have won a lot. Not a slight to Ozzie, just pointing out the obvious. Of course Ozzie was a good, solid player but that doesn't get you in the rafters at the joe

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Won Lady Byng trophies.

Wow, that was easy. Are you saying Delvecchio shouldn't be retired because he won a 'wimpy' award?

I am sure you are being sarcastic, but I always love to talk about the older players.

Delvecchio has a much stronger resume than Osgood. A long-serving Captain with 3 Cups, he finished Top 10 in scoring 11 seasons - which is incredible. Yzerman and Fedorov, while both had higher peaks, only managed that 6 and 2 times, respectively. And in their mold, Delvecchio was very strong defensively and was a big penalty killer.

Absolutely nothing wrong with him being up there.

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In my opinion, rafter spots should be reserved for franchise type players and/or lines. Ozzy was never a franchise type player. He was a decent enough goaltender who played on the cheap. He was affordable and adequate. Not rafter material imo. May as well retire Draper's number while your at it.

Thank you. Exactly what I've been saying this whole thread. He got the job done but was never a franchise guy.

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No I used it to say he got waived by the wings from the get go, thats all I said was that he got waived and you came in here talking about how he played way better when he left.

Wrong. Read your post again. Also him being waived is irrelevant because every team in the NHL knew Holland had to move Osgood due to his salary and knowing Hasek was going to be the undisputed #1 in 2002.

Man you are dense, Ozzie had an average year with the islanders and a horrible one.

Once again, he statistically did better the year he left Detroit and the year before he got back. How does that support him fading into obscurity or show he was "as bad" as he was the last two years?

And to top it all off show me where I said he was down right awful out of Detroit? Or is this one of those Doc argumens where he puts words in someone else's mouth then tries to act smart afterwards?

I don't have to put them into your mouth because that was a premise of yours from the start.

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Wrong. Read your post again. Also him being waived is irrelevant because every team in the NHL knew Holland had to move Osgood due to his salary and knowing Hasek was going to be the undisputed #1 in 2002.

Once again, he statistically did better the year he left Detroit and the year before he got back. How does that support him fading into obscurity or show he was "as bad" as he was the last two years?

I don't have to put them into your mouth because that was a premise of yours from the start.

Ok I guess you think that a goalie is based off of one season, I on the other hand take consistency into account as how good a goalie is. If you really think Osgood was better in New York then he was in Detroit then so be it, thats your opinion (it just isnt as good as mine :lol: )

And your last sentence is admitting exactly what I said, a doc holliday argument is putting words into someone else's mouth then using it against them in an argument.

There you go again acting like you know my own premise better then I do, my premise this whole time was to say Ozzie had a great career with ups and downs, but in the end he did not do enough to have his jersey retired

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If Osgood had stolen one series as the Wings goaltender, I'd be much more inclined to want to see his jersey hanging. But he just wasn't ever a shutdown goaltender. He was a goalie that recovered well from horrible games and goals from center ice, but he rarely stole a single game in the playoffs.

Edited by Broken 16

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I am sure you are being sarcastic, but I always love to talk about the older players.

Delvecchio has a much stronger resume than Osgood. A long-serving Captain with 3 Cups, he finished Top 10 in scoring 11 seasons - which is incredible. Yzerman and Fedorov, while both had higher peaks, only managed that 6 and 2 times, respectively. And in their mold, Delvecchio was very strong defensively and was a big penalty killer.

Absolutely nothing wrong with him being up there.

Incredibly sarcastic, yes. He was trying to make a point that he felt Osgood didn't belong with those names, and used sarcasm to be like "lol which isn't like the others?" And as someone who wouldn't have a problem seeing Ozzie with those names, it's obvious to me that Delvecchio stands out because he's the only one out of that lot that's won a Byng.

Anyhow, fun fact: Delvecchio (and family) was one of my dad's neighbors when he was growing up. Yea, I'm not ragging on him at all.

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I love what Ozzie has done for the Wings, and his team spirit. I root for him every game and consider him a great goalie and a Red Wing for life. However, people get slap-happy with the number retiring. We've had so many great players the last 20 years, we can't possibly retire them all without cheapening things.

The only Yzerman era player who should have their number retired would be Lidstrom (obviously a shoe-in). The other guys were fantastic, but Lidstrom easily outclassed all of his teammates and is a legend among hockey players and a template for future defensemen.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg will probably have theirs retired, but it's too early to tell. I would imagine if both finish their careers here working as hard as they do now (regardless of stats) they will both be retired if one of them is.

That seems almost necessary, both or neither being retired. That would bring the number of retired numbers post-2000 to 4. Yzerman, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk. That's a LOT, and then consider the Wings have a very bright future.

Having so many lifers play for the Wings makes it really hard NOT to honor them somehow.

Edited by VM1138

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i've only been watching hockey for about five years, so i'm a relative newbie. but i think i've heard before that what they'll sometimes do is basically take a number out of rotation for a while without actually retiring it. i think that would be a good thing to do with ozzie.

to me, 5 is the only lock right now. with 13 and 40 being in their prime, unless one or both of them lead us to a couple more cups, i don't see either of those numbers getting retired. that doesn't diminish my love for either of the players, of course, but like others have said, it's the idea of being a true franchise player. time will only tell with 13 and 40, but to look at the team we're icing today and say that four current roster members will get their numbers retired is very unlikely.

comparing ozzie to nick, everyone says year-in and year-out how nick is the best, the best, the best, and how rarely he falters. while ozzie's got a lot of wins, and has at times played amazing hockey, i think if you look at the amount of bad goals he lets in, versus the amount of blown defensive coverages that nick has, it's obvious that lidstrom is the more steady, solid, elite player. sure, you'll hear people praising osgood after he's won a cup, but during the course of the season it's not like he's getting talked about for his stupendous numbers or for carrying the team on his back. again, i haven't watched him his whole career, so maybe it's radically different now than it was. but even looking at nick at 40, not much has changed, and i think that says a lot about why his number WILL be retired. ozzie, on the other hand...i don't know. there's just some intangible that's not there the way it is with lids (not that they're mutually exclusive, of course, but to me, he has to at least be CLOSE to lidstrom to get consideration).

so, all that to say, i'd like to see no one wear #30 for a while after ozzie hangs 'em up, but i guess i don't see his number making it to the rafters.

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with 13 and 40 being in their prime, unless one or both of them lead us to a couple more cups, i don't see either of those numbers getting retired.

They haven't earned retirement yet...but if you are serious that having a long career in Detroit with great regular seasons and playoffs without Cup wins wouldn't be enough, then that's a little crazy. Cup wins are a team achievement and yes, while great players lead Cup teams, great players need support to win the Cup. Mark Howe was the best defenseman of the 80s after Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey. He was a great player before the 80s and a good player after the 80s. He might have won a few Norrises if he hadn't impaled himself on the spike in the net (remember that, guys?) and yet, he never won a Cup. Speaking of Bourque, he had to be traded to a contender at the deadline in his final season to win a Cup. One of the five best defensemen ever; a First-team or Second-team All-Star seventeen consecutive years from the start of his career.

that doesn't diminish my love for either of the players, of course, but like others have said, it's the idea of being a true franchise player. time will only tell with 13 and 40, but to look at the team we're icing today and say that four current roster members will get their numbers retired is very unlikely.

Sid Abel's last year with the Red Wings features five currently retired numbers.

comparing ozzie to nick, everyone says year-in and year-out how nick is the best, the best, the best, and how rarely he falters. while ozzie's got a lot of wins, and has at times played amazing hockey, i think if you look at the amount of bad goals he lets in, versus the amount of blown defensive coverages that nick has, it's obvious that lidstrom is the more steady, solid, elite player.

Osgood is also a goaltender; goaltenders typically have shorter careers, and quicker dropoffs from their peak. Osgood was a top end goalie in his prime. But comparing Ozzie to Nick is unfair; Nick isn't just an all-time great; he is argued by many, both Wings fans and non-Wings fans, as the best defenseman of all-time.

Ozzie was one of the five best goalies of his generation.Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour, Chris Osgood. I'd say he's in some pretty good company there. Would you deny any of the other four jersey retirement given the same percentage of seasons played in Detroit as Osgood has? No.

But because it's Ozzie, you do. Why? Because as a rookie, after he had stolen the starter role from Tim Cheveldae and then from the newly acquired Bob Essensa during the regular season, he let in long goal due to misplaying the puck and turning it over in the Wings' zone. Big ******* deal. He's fourth all-time in career wins for a single team, only Brodeur, Esposito, and Sawchuk are ahead of him.

sure, you'll hear people praising osgood after he's won a cup, but during the course of the season it's not like he's getting talked about for his stupendous numbers or for carrying the team on his back.

You didn't watch the 2009 Cup run did you? That's exactly what happened; he carried the team on his back to the finals and all the way to Game 7.

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The Rafters are Sacred Red Wing Jersey grounds. More sacred than Ozzie, Shanny, and Feds. We're talking maybe once in a generation does a new jersey go up and retire. When was the last one before Stevie Y?

that's the thing.

any other team (excluding original 6 teams) and these guys would be a lock.

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that's the thing.

any other team (excluding original 6 teams) and these guys would be a lock.

Hmm, really.

Osgood is, as I said before, one of the top five goalies of his generation. He spent, basically, his entire career in Detroit.

Now let's review some retired goaltender numbers. Counting Toronto's list of "honored" numbers, the following goaltenders have had their numbers retired by an Original Six team:

#1 Glenn Hall (Chicago)

#1 Terry Sawchuk (Detroit)

#1 Jacques Plante (Montreal)

#1 Eddie Giacomin (New York Rangers)

#1 Johnny Bower (Toronto)

#1 Turk Broda (Toronto)

#29 Ken Dryden (Montreal)

#33 Patrick Roy (Montreal)

#35 Tony Esposito (Chicago)

#35 Mike Richter (New York Rangers)

Certainly there are names on that list greater than Osgood. But being realistic, if you lump him in with those ten goalies, he falls near the middle. You can argue all you want that he doesn't belong in Detroit's rafters; but using the O6 retired list to do so does not help your argument.

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I just want to say, the #40 and #13 talk. Right now, I don't see Zetterberg up there. He gets a lot more attention it seems and he won that Conn Smythe trophy, but through the years, I really think Datsyuk has been the better player. I tend to think Datsyuk is truly one of the best offensive players in the game, easily top 5 in any given year. But on top of that, he's incredible in our end, the takeaways, hell, even his hitting, which he does far more of than many people realize. Dats already got the 1 Hart nom and there's a good chance he may pick up another this year the way it's going. If he hits 100 points, I think he could win because he's such a complete player.

Zetterberg is a great player no doubt, but I really just don't think he's as good or as important of a player to this team and to the league than Datsyuk is. And I think while Datsyuk may deserve it by the end, I wouldn't say it's a lock yet. So it's just tough for me to think of Zetterberg as being up there right now. We'll see...

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Maybe instead of a number retiring the Illitch's can come up with some other way of honoring all the great players from this generation's team. The arguments for retiring Osgood's number are good, but so are the arguments against it.

What about taking his number out of circulation for a while, and building him one of those bad-ass statues at the Joe?

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Maybe instead of a number retiring the Illitch's can come up with some other way of honoring all the great players from this generation's team. The arguments for retiring Osgood's number are good, but so are the arguments against it.

What about taking his number out of circulation for a while, and building him one of those bad-ass statues at the Joe?

There is a Detroit Red Wings Hall of Fame:

http://www.redwingalumni.com/hallOfFame.html

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I just want to say, the #40 and #13 talk. Right now, I don't see Zetterberg up there. He gets a lot more attention it seems and he won that Conn Smythe trophy, but through the years, I really think Datsyuk has been the better player. I tend to think Datsyuk is truly one of the best offensive players in the game, easily top 5 in any given year. But on top of that, he's incredible in our end, the takeaways, hell, even his hitting, which he does far more of than many people realize. Dats already got the 1 Hart nom and there's a good chance he may pick up another this year the way it's going. If he hits 100 points, I think he could win because he's such a complete player.

Zetterberg is a great player no doubt, but I really just don't think he's as good or as important of a player to this team and to the league than Datsyuk is. And I think while Datsyuk may deserve it by the end, I wouldn't say it's a lock yet. So it's just tough for me to think of Zetterberg as being up there right now. We'll see...

Datsyuk is on target for the HHoF, but Zetterberg definitely needs to pick it up.

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I just want to say, the #40 and #13 talk. Right now, I don't see Zetterberg up there. He gets a lot more attention it seems and he won that Conn Smythe trophy, but through the years, I really think Datsyuk has been the better player. I tend to think Datsyuk is truly one of the best offensive players in the game, easily top 5 in any given year. But on top of that, he's incredible in our end, the takeaways, hell, even his hitting, which he does far more of than many people realize. Dats already got the 1 Hart nom and there's a good chance he may pick up another this year the way it's going. If he hits 100 points, I think he could win because he's such a complete player.

Zetterberg is a great player no doubt, but I really just don't think he's as good or as important of a player to this team and to the league than Datsyuk is. And I think while Datsyuk may deserve it by the end, I wouldn't say it's a lock yet. So it's just tough for me to think of Zetterberg as being up there right now. We'll see...

The arguments against Osgood keep going "Well, there are players who deserve it more because they were better and contributed more to the Cup wins" and yet...

Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been very close in performance most of their careers, with Datsyuk only reaching same kind of level as Zetterberg because of his significant improvement on the defensive side from his early years. However, as far as Cup contributions, Zetterberg has been FAR more valuable. He obviously has the Smythe, and Z is the one who has been responsible for shutting down the opponent's top offensive players. Z has been, at minimum, the team's best forward every year the past few years. He has been one of the top contributors in the playoffs from his first day with the team. Datsyuk, on the other hand, has shown inconsistency in his playoff performances.

Neither has earned the honor yet, and it will take many more years to do so, but to say that Zetterberg is not on course to do so at all but Datsyuk is definitely en route, that's ridiculous.

Kind of like suggesting Maltby, Probert, McCarty, Kocur, Draper, or Homer up in the rafters as so many on here have done in the past. Ridiculous.

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Datsyuk is on target for the HHoF, but Zetterberg definitely needs to pick it up.

A point per game player regarded as one of the most versatile, elite two-way players and top clutch performers of his day, who has been named a First-Team All-Star and has a Conn Smythe trophy, and currently is in his eighth season with plans to play many more years is not on track for the Hall?

I think you underestimate the beard.

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A point per game player regarded as one of the most versatile, elite two-way players and top clutch performers of his day, who has been named a First-Team All-Star and has a Conn Smythe trophy, and currently is in his eighth season with plans to play many more years is not on track for the Hall?

I think you underestimate the beard.

Heh.

Zetterberg just does not have the hardware Datsyuk does... Hank needs to get another Conn Smythe or a Selke and some more Post-Season All-Star selections or get into the top 10 in points or goals again.

Both these guys got started rather late, so neither of them is going to get in on accumulated points.

Edited by egroen

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Heh.

Zetterberg just does not have the hardware Datsyuk does... Hank needs to get another Conn Smythe or a Selke and some more Post-Season All-Star selections or get into the top 10 in points or goals again.

Both these guys got started rather late, so neither of them is going to get in on accumulated points.

I've got to agree. Zetterberg has had better goal scoring seasons than Datsyuk and has a Conn Smythe, but Datsyuk has been a better point producer and has three Selkes. Both Datsyuk and Zetterberg will most likely have less total points then their contemporaries when it comes down to the HHOF, but Datsyuk's Selke's will help close the gap.

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This "argument" has always baffled me, the guy has 2 Cups as the starting goalie, is top 25 in goal against average all time, is 10th currently and may be 8th all time in wins by the end of this season, 8th all time in playoff wins, 4th all time in playoff shutouts....what more do you want? Did he play most of his career in an organization where one of the greatest to ever put on the pads (sawchuck) already played? yes..Did he play at a time when 4 or 5 of the handful of people who are better than him also played? yes....None of that should diminish what osgood did, if he plays at a time when there weren't 4 or 5 legends his place in history is much more lusterous. The fact of the matter is that if Chris Osgood put up the numbers he has put up in almost any other organization in the NHL save for a few then he is an organization legend...did playing with so many great players help his stats and help his teams be more succesful? absolutely but it helped all of those others players careers as well..How often do you hear people saying that Lidstrom wouldnt have reached the level of success he had if he hadn't had the benefit of playing with so many other great defensive players? almost never, and taking nothing away from Lidstrom but if he played his entire career with a team that never had another HOF or all star d-men on the the team he would not have as many Norris's end of discussion...Just because the Wings have had the luxury of having more all time great players than any other organization other than the Habs shouldn't be a punishment to osgood...the 2nd best goalie the wings have ever had is osgood (behind a guy who would go on the mount rushmore of goalies mind you) and he certainly has the numbers, in a few years he will have a plaque in the HOF...everyone is complicating this way too much, Ozzie deserves to have his jersey in the rafters.

Edited by StevieY'sguy

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After thinking about it today, I'm now in favor of retiring Ozzie's #30. 400 wins, second all time in regular season wins in franchise history, first all time in playoff wins in franchise history, 3 Cup rings (2 as a starter), 5 time Western Conference Champion (3 as a starter), probably the 3rd best big game goalie the past 20 years (behind Roy and Brodeur), and a future hall of famer.

If that isn't jersey retirement worthy, I don't know what is.

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