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HankthaTank

Bettman 5 step plan

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Removing the instigator rule should be number 1 on that list.

exactly.

bettman does know that all these concussions are a result of his rule changes right?

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exactly.

bettman does know that all these concussions are a result of his rule changes right?

I wouldn't count on it, he is too busy blaming it on equipment etc. The bottom line is, nowadays the respect between the players isn't there and imo that is partly due to the instigator. Now i'm not saying this is the sole reason for concussions but it is playing a major part in todays game by not allowing players to police themselves.

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I wouldn't count on it, he is too busy blaming it on equipment etc. The bottom line is, nowadays the respect between the players isn't there and imo that is partly due to the instigator. Now i'm not saying this is the sole reason for concussions but it is playing a major part in todays game by not allowing players to police themselves.

Pretty sure injuries due to cheap shots occurred before the instigator. I also believe that concussions weren't as well documented as they are now.

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I like #1 the best.

Time to make goalies look like they did 20 or 30 years ago. These oversized pads and other equipment are ridiculous and are bad for the game.

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Pretty sure injuries due to cheap shots occurred before the instigator. I also believe that concussions weren't as well documented as they are now.

Cheap shots will always be there, thats apart of hockey but some players are able to get away with it now where before they wouldn't have. I completely agree with the second part, concussions have always been apart of hockey and any major pro sport in fact. Players nowadays as well are bigger, stronger and faster than ever before and even a clip to the head nowadays can cause a concussion.

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I like #1 the best.

Time to make goalies look like they did 20 or 30 years ago. These oversized pads and other equipment are ridiculous and are bad for the game.

Agreed. I think they should ease up a little bit on the hooking and holding. We've seen many incidents where a puck is dumped in and the defenseman gets wasted because his partner can't obstruct the forechecking player in any way at all. Even just a little tug or hold in that situation would be ideal.

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I found this combination of comments funny:

"...there is not empirical data to back up any suggestion that concussions and resulting lost man-games are on the rise due to illegal hits to the head."

"...Forty-four percent of the concussions this season have been the result of legal hits to the head ..."

Only 17% were caused by illegal hits.

Should just make all head hits legal again, then there won't be any concussions at all from illegal head hits. Brilliant.

Another 26% from accidents.

If they really want to reduce injuries, concussions specifically, they need to change the culture of the game more than anything. Any hit where the head is targetted needs to be punished severely. Start handing out long suspensions and big fines. Some people will whine about it. Maybe lose some of the more barbaric fans. So what. There'd be an adjustment period and the next generation of players will still hit, and hit effectively. Just not headhunt. Hip checks would make a comeback. Defense would improve as guys stop taking themselves out of the play in order to make a highlight reel. The flow of the game would improve since not every big hit would bring a stop in play for a pointless pushing contest.

Without that there isn't much point to doing anything. Rink mods are ok, but only 6 rinks still have seamless glass. Stanchion hits happen maybe once a year. I really don't think rinks are much of a factor.

Better diagnostics is good. Not sure how much better a quiet room is going to be though. It seems the diagnosis still relies mostly on how the player says they feel. Many concussions don't leave the player obviously incoherrent; might not even cause a headache right away with all the adrenaline pumping.

Fining the coaches/teams isn't bad, but the focus needs to be mostly on the players.

Equipment changes could be good if they focus mainly on helmets. Soft cap pads won't do anything. If they do, it will only be because they are made to offer so little protection to the player that any concussion benefit is offset by an increase in shoulder injuries from guys falling or hitting the boards. You want to protect the head then focus on the piece of gear designed to protect the head. Mandatory tightened chin-straps at the least. Catastrophic injuries are very rare even without that; with straps they'd be all but eliminated entirely. I'm not sure there are many concussions that could be prevented by a properly seated helmet, since I don't think hockey helmets are designed for concussion protection. I assume the helmet and padding design could be significantly improved. I'm sure pro helmets are a lot better than the typical off-the-shelf models, but even Football only recently started designing helmets for concussion reduction.

One thing that would help but probably won't happen for a long, long time. Full face cages, especially if integrated with the helmet design instead of tacked on, would cut both the number and severity of concussions. Or at least they would if used in conjunction with stiff headshot rules to prevent a rise in players trying harder to hurt a more well-protected player.

Mouthguards are already required I think, but they could probably make sure players are using properly fitting guards. I'm not sure how often players get hit in the jaw, but intracranial vibration can cause a lot of damage, and a good mouthguard can lessen that even on other head hits. They would definitely be needed if using face-cages using the jaw for an anchor point.

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1. Bettman Retires

2. Don Cherry becomes commissioner

Bettman is a better commissioner than Cherry could ever be. Cherry would be pushing for penalties only for the losing player in a fight, and for pretty plays.

3. All euros banned from NHL

4. Instigator rule removed

More from the "Cherry commish" situation. Although the instigator rule is NOT to blame for cheap shots or injuries. The fact that increased medical attention better documents things like concussions and other injuries doesn't make them more prevalent. Cheap shots happened just as much if not more often in the pre-instigator days, largely due to the high number of guys on NHL teams who were skill-free enforcers.

5. Joke teams/markets go back to Hartford,Quebec, Winnipeg, etc.

Quebec and Winnipeg MIGHT be able to support a team. Hartford couldn't when it had one, and would have even less chance of survival now. Hartford only ever had a team because the WHA wanted to steal fans from the Bruins. In the same league, especially as an expansion team, a new Hartford team would die a quick death.

how about players keep their head up?

in all seriousness if they start punishing north south hits to the head i will no longer watch the nhl. the only one to blame for a north south hit to the head is the player with the puck.

exactly.

bettman does know that all these concussions are a result of his rule changes right?

Intentional hit to the head=cheap shot. Even if it's a north-south hit with the guy's head down. So you can stop watching the NHL if that happens. Maybe we should start taking helms off and have goalies play without masks? Since you're so unconcerned about head shots.

Hits to the head are not a result of rule changes in the past twenty years. And whether they be east-west, west-south, north-south, whatever, are ALWAYS dirty hits and should be banned. If you are going for a guy's head, it doesn't really matter what direction you are coming from. It's dangerous and could even be career-ending. Get rid of that s***. Furthermore, concussions on the level they have been happening aren't a result of Bettman's rule changes. Being better documented and treated does not mean they happen more often. Unless you think there was nobody living in countries around the world before they instituted their various census procedures.

As for the comment on defensemen getting wasted in the corner because their partner can't obstruct the forechecker? How about remove the ******* trapezoid. Or change the goal line so that it arcs behind the goal line, and pucks in the corner don't count as icing.

Edited by eva unit zero

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per McKenzie Twitter, some rules taken from the meetings:

GMs recommendations:

1. Re-define a tougher standard on existing boarding and charging rules, starting next season.

2. Longer suspensions in general for illegal head hits and much longer suspensions for repeat offenders.

Committee of Shanahan, Blake, Yzerman, Nieuwendyk, in conjunction with hockey ops, will re-define boarding and charging standards.

NHL will continue to look at broadening Rule 48 to more than than blindside hits but no specifics whatsoever on that at this time.

GMs, BTW, overwhelmingly viewed Chara-Pacioretty as "hockey play" I'm told vote was 24-6 on it as a play that didn't require discipline

Seems like par for the course on this really. Good to see that committee getting together but I can see any real good ideas never coming to light as most of this seems like a bunch of BS anyway.

Edited by HankthaTank

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per McKenzie Twitter, some rules taken from the meetings:

Seems like par for the course on this really. Good to see that committee getting together but I can see any real good ideas never coming to light as most of this seems like a bunch of BS anyway.

Good to see the overall view of the Chara hit was a "hockey play". I'd like to see s***heads like Cooke suspended longer as well. Good to see there's still some commom sense left.

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Per @TSNBob McKenzie, the commissioner has outlined a 5 step plan for head injuries:

LGW, your thoughts?

There are some rules changes that would help

- no touch icing

-get rid of the trapezoid

Both of these are easy to do, other leagues have done them and I am hoping are part of #5

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While I think head shots should be removed, I'm afraid of how the new rules will be interpreted. There are many times, especially on north-south hits, where any hit will head the head, or the hitting player cannot make the judgement of if the head will be hit or not. The last thing I want to see if players skating with their head down since they can't be hit (any north-south hit would be to the head). While this is an oversimplification, the possibility is there. I think the best thing to do is give two-min penalties to players who appear to target the head (assuming the refs can judge) and then let the league give further review unless the hit is blatantly targeting the head. Many of the game misconducts this year have been BS IMO. The league can always issue a one game suspension if that should have been called.

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So there's still no plan to try and eliminate head shots all together? Also the League is still ok with fighting and goons after what Probert's brain showed us? Why am I not surprised?

The NHL needs to take head shots and concussions seriously because after this public outcry from Chara/Pacioretty incident, I think they're only one more big hit and concussion away from a huge lawsuit on their hands. The NHL will have a difficult time defending themselves in court too because they really aren't addressing head shots.

Bettman and the Owners continue to run the league into the ground!

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So there's still no plan to try and eliminate head shots all together? Also the League is still ok with fighting and goons after what Probert's brain showed us? Why am I not surprised?

The NHL needs to take head shots and concussions seriously because after this public outcry from Chara/Pacioretty incident, I think they're only one more big hit and concussion away from a huge lawsuit on their hands. The NHL will have a difficult time defending themselves in court too because they really aren't addressing head shots.

Bettman and the Owners continue to run the league into the ground!

What do you proper then? Have you ever tried to make a north-south open ice hit on a player with his head down without hitting the head? You want to remove fighting?

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What do you proper then? Have you ever tried to make a north-south open ice hit on a player with his head down without hitting the head? You want to remove fighting?

There should be no hits to the head at all. How come the NFL can ban head shots and the NHL can't?

Also I think fighting is a 1970's thing. There's no need for it. Again, why can you fight in hockey and not in the other sports? Just like other sports, if you fight, you're out of the game.

The issue here is concussions, head hits and fighting causes concussions. Both should be eliminated.

If the NHL doesn't address concussions seriously, like I said, they're going to face huge lawsuits. Look at this public outcry from the Chara hit, it's just the beginning of what could happen.

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There should be no hits to the head at all. How come the NFL can ban head shots and the NHL can't?

Also I think fighting is a 1970's thing. There's no need for it. Again, why can you fight in hockey and not in the other sports? Just like other sports, if you fight, you're out of the game.

The issue here is concussions, head hits and fighting causes concussions. Both should be eliminated.

If the NHL doesn't address concussions seriously, like I said, they're going to face huge lawsuits. Look at this public outcry from the Chara hit, it's just the beginning of what could happen.

I agree that concussions and head-shots are a problem, but your analysis is reaching.

Hits to the head happen in hockey because you cannot wrap your arms around another player to remove them from the puck (like you can in football). As I asked, have you ever tried to make a north-south hit on someone with their head down without making head contact? It's not possible to do consistently, and protecting these players would result in them skating with their head down through the center of the ice because they can't be hit. I don't think this is explainable to someone who hasn't played the game at a competitive level (if you haven't), but it is one of the first things you learn in peewees. If you skate with your head down, you will get nailed. The Kronner- Havlat hit is an example of this. I would hate to see those hits removed.

Fighting was around in hockey since the beginning of the sport, not since the 70's. Fighting is significantly down since the lockout. This is a totally different discussion, but I will never support the removal of fighting from hockey. Orr received a bad concussion from fighting earlier this year, and I don't see him calling for fighting to be removed either. I also never heard any comments suggesting the removal from Probert. If I drop my gloves and ditch my lid, I know the risk I'm taking- so do the NHL players. Just because other sports don't allow fighting, why shouldn't hockey? Fighting is a sport, so why do we need pucks or skates or sticks? I am being sarcastic, but it shows your logic is flawed.

No one should bring a lawsuit on hockey for anything that happens on the ice (within reason). Hockey is a dangerous sport, and when the players suit up and sign their contracts they no this. The need is to minimize the risk of dangerous plays while keeping the integrity of the game. I agree with the blind-side rule, making shoulder pads smaller, removing seamless glass, removing the instigator, increasing helmet tech., etc. but not degrading the game. Speaking of dangerous sports (to use a comparison like yours), cheerleading is one of the most dangerous, but I don't think throws (or whatever they're called) are outlawed. The key parts of the game, like hitting, need to be kept.

wings1110 and Hatcher#2 like this

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I can't figure out why people hat Bettman so much.. He is actually one of the better commissioners in professional sports. He has done a pretty good job growing the game, and it looks like he is taking the necessary steps to help with these injuries.

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There should be no hits to the head at all. How come the NFL can ban head shots and the NHL can't?

Also I think fighting is a 1970's thing. There's no need for it. Again, why can you fight in hockey and not in the other sports? Just like other sports, if you fight, you're out of the game.

The issue here is concussions, head hits and fighting causes concussions. Both should be eliminated.

If the NHL doesn't address concussions seriously, like I said, they're going to face huge lawsuits. Look at this public outcry from the Chara hit, it's just the beginning of what could happen.

why dont you just watch soccer? its people like you that are ruining the game of hockey, you cant just change the fabric of the game.

The players wont get hit in the head from a north south hit if they have their head up. and if they have their head down on a north south hit and get hit in the head and get a concussion thats 100% their fault.

If players dont want to get concussions that bad then: A. just dont play hockey, play soccer(pansy asses such as yourself) or B. keep your head up, and you wont get hit in the head.

And getting rid of fighting? its part of hockey the players relize they can get a concussion from a fight, if they take that risk more power to them!

Everyone is so overly sensitive these days, this world is getting so soft, its pitiful.

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What do you proper then? Have you ever tried to make a north-south open ice hit on a player with his head down without hitting the head? You want to remove fighting?

Hip check. They're pretty neat. If you watch enough hockey you might even see one or two a season. There's also the option to hit someone with the intent of separating the player from the puck rather than the brain from the spinal cord.

There isn't any good reason to allow head hits from any angle. Skating with your head down is still dumb because you're not fully aware of the situation on the ice so you're not able to make the best play. You're still at high-risk of being knocked off the puck, possibly leading to a scoring chance the other way. You don't have to threaten a player's safety to force them to be aware.

Some incidental head contact when you hit someone will be unavoidable, and I don't think anyone means to punish that. But allowing players to put a shoulder into a guys chin or temple is irresponsible, no matter how exciting the fans think it is.

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Hip check. They're pretty neat. If you watch enough hockey you might even see one or two a season. There's also the option to hit someone with the intent of separating the player from the puck rather than the brain from the spinal cord.

There isn't any good reason to allow head hits from any angle. Skating with your head down is still dumb because you're not fully aware of the situation on the ice so you're not able to make the best play. You're still at high-risk of being knocked off the puck, possibly leading to a scoring chance the other way. You don't have to threaten a player's safety to force them to be aware.

Some incidental head contact when you hit someone will be unavoidable, and I don't think anyone means to punish that. But allowing players to put a shoulder into a guys chin or temple is irresponsible, no matter how exciting the fans think it is.

soo your wanna eliminate crushing open ice hits, which are extremely awesome. such as kronwalls open ice hits(at least when he used to actually hit) would mostly be suspendable, if their head is down and you step up its often impossible to avoid hitting the head. keep your head up and you dont have a problem.

hockey is on a downwards spiral towards figure skating, its a physical game get over it, its been around for over a hundred years as is until the lockout f***ed it up, lets try not to f*** it up more by turning it into a little girls game.

I agree that concussions and head-shots are a problem, but your analysis is reaching.

Hits to the head happen in hockey because you cannot wrap your arms around another player to remove them from the puck (like you can in football). As I asked, have you ever tried to make a north-south hit on someone with their head down without making head contact? It's not possible to do consistently, and protecting these players would result in them skating with their head down through the center of the ice because they can't be hit. I don't think this is explainable to someone who hasn't played the game at a competitive level (if you haven't), but it is one of the first things you learn in peewees. If you skate with your head down, you will get nailed. The Kronner- Havlat hit is an example of this. I would hate to see those hits removed.

Fighting was around in hockey since the beginning of the sport, not since the 70's. Fighting is significantly down since the lockout. This is a totally different discussion, but I will never support the removal of fighting from hockey. Orr received a bad concussion from fighting earlier this year, and I don't see him calling for fighting to be removed either. I also never heard any comments suggesting the removal from Probert. If I drop my gloves and ditch my lid, I know the risk I'm taking- so do the NHL players. Just because other sports don't allow fighting, why shouldn't hockey? Fighting is a sport, so why do we need pucks or skates or sticks? I am being sarcastic, but it shows your logic is flawed.

No one should bring a lawsuit on hockey for anything that happens on the ice (within reason). Hockey is a dangerous sport, and when the players suit up and sign their contracts they no this. The need is to minimize the risk of dangerous plays while keeping the integrity of the game. I agree with the blind-side rule, making shoulder pads smaller, removing seamless glass, removing the instigator, increasing helmet tech., etc. but not degrading the game. Speaking of dangerous sports (to use a comparison like yours), cheerleading is one of the most dangerous, but I don't think throws (or whatever they're called) are outlawed. The key parts of the game, like hitting, need to be kept.

mmmmmmm someone who actually know s*** about the game i agree 100% with everything you said, at leasy someone on here truly loves the game like me and doesnt want to see it destroyed just because some people are bitching and moaning, if you dont like it dont watch it or play it.

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Hip check. They're pretty neat. If you watch enough hockey you might even see one or two a season. There's also the option to hit someone with the intent of separating the player from the puck rather than the brain from the spinal cord.

There isn't any good reason to allow head hits from any angle. Skating with your head down is still dumb because you're not fully aware of the situation on the ice so you're not able to make the best play. You're still at high-risk of being knocked off the puck, possibly leading to a scoring chance the other way. You don't have to threaten a player's safety to force them to be aware.

Some incidental head contact when you hit someone will be unavoidable, and I don't think anyone means to punish that. But allowing players to put a shoulder into a guys chin or temple is irresponsible, no matter how exciting the fans think it is.

You can't hip check someone going north-south (I guess you could, but it would be very difficult) consistently. I can skate with my head down all day and stick-handle around people. Skating with your head down (usually) gives better puck control, but less ability to avoid a check. If you watch/play beer league you'll see players do this all day. Also, a large amount of hip checks have been called tripping lately, which is unfortunate because good hip checks are always a good sight.

I'm all for eliminating dangerous head hits. Blind-side elimination altogether is fine with me (in theory). Also, if you elbow/forearm/punch someone in the head it is already a penalty- lets enforce this. I just don't think the north-south shoulder hit to the head is punishable, or controllable for the hitting player. I believe shoulder pads should be smaller, seamless glass removed (this is happening), and enforcing the current rules better is the best next step. Hits to the head from the blind-side and with any body-part other than the shoulder are already outlawed. Lets police this and see what happens. I also believe the removal of the instigator is needed (to better police the 'intent to injure' hits you mention), but that is a much more opinionated topic that is probably better left out of this thread.

Edited by WorkingOvertime

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Honestly I think it's a great plan.

I can't believe arenas still have seamless glass. It's been known for years that they're harder. Anyone remember all the shoulder dislocations? Then players just started wearing the football style hardshell pads. So now they're braining guys out there.

I'd love for Shanny to be on a panel like that. Everyone should have to wear his sad little shoulder pads. Or at least require players to sit face to face and explain to someone who has over 1300 points and over 90 fights in the NHL why they need the bigger shoulder pads to play the game.

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soo your wanna eliminate crushing open ice hits, which are extremely awesome. such as kronwalls open ice hits(at least when he used to actually hit) would mostly be suspendable, if their head is down and you step up its often impossible to avoid hitting the head. keep your head up and you dont have a problem.

hockey is on a downwards spiral towards figure skating, its a physical game get over it, its been around for over a hundred years as is until the lockout f***ed it up, lets try not to f*** it up more by turning it into a little girls game.

...

Yeah, and she shouldn't have worn that dress...

You don't want anyone keeping their heads up because you want people to get hurt. How about we make skating with your head down suspendable. Someone skates up the middle with their head down play is immediately blown dead and the offending player ejected. The dangerous hits still disappear; do you feel better since it's the player you want to blame being punished?

Would you really even feel any better if there were no punishments and players just always kept their heads up, eliminating these hits by default? I bet not.

You can't hip check someone going north-south (I guess you could, but it would be very difficult) consistently. I can skate with my head down all day and stick-handle around people. Skating with your head down (usually) gives better puck control, but less ability to avoid a check. If you watch/play beer league you'll see players do this all day. Also, a large amount of hip checks have been called tripping lately, which is unfortunate because good hip checks are always a good sight.

I'm all for eliminating dangerous head hits. Blind-side elimination altogether is fine with me (in theory). Also, if you elbow/forearm/punch someone in the head it is already a penalty- lets enforce this. I just don't think the north-south shoulder hit to the head is punishable, or controllable for the hitting player. I believe shoulder pads should be smaller, seamless glass removed (this is happening), and enforcing the current rules better is the best next step. Hits to the head from the blind-side and with any body-part other than the shoulder are already outlawed. Lets police this and see what happens. I also believe the removal of the instigator is needed (to better police the 'intent to injure' hits you mention), but that is a much more opinionated topic that is probably better left out of this thread.

Few big hits are truly north-south, especially near the boards. Regardless, the fact that a hip-check isn't always a viable option is why I mentioned the simple fact that you can hit a player without trying to knock him unconscious. A well placed rub-out, bump, or stand-up can often be the better hockey play as it is less likely to take the hitter out of play. And it is possible to lay a big open-ice hit without much head contact. Not always, but there are plenty of occasions where guys skate up ice without being doubled-over leading with their head, and in those cases you can get a shoulder in their chest without much head trauma. If a guy's too vulnerable there's nothing wrong with standing them up, shoving them on their ass, and laughing at them after your team capitalizes on the turnover.

Again, I don't think anyone is suggesting we make a player with his head down untouchable. Not saying completely removing hitting, or suspend guys for incidental contact or accidental collisions. Just that it's not right to allow players to so aggressively go after a guys head or a guy who's too vulnerable.

And remember, rules in the NHL don't just affect NHL players. There are hundreds of thousands of players, including kids as young as 11-12 in youth, junior, college, minors perhaps with NHL aspirations who are also at risk because that's the style you have to play in any advanced league. Force changes in the NHL, and all those feeder leagues also have to adapt.

There are times when the safety of human beings needs to take precedence over our desire to be entertained, whether the participants are willing to take the risks or not. I don't believe that big hits to the head are at all integral to the sport. You can have a great, exciting, physical game while trying to minimize head contact. Not doing so is irresponsible. I'm just afraid we're going to have to wait until some NHL player drops dead from repeat brain trauma before anything major is done.

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laugh.gif Soccer references like 20 times in here. While I get the analogy, it reeks of unoriginality. Sticking on point here, I can't see anything but positives coming from both #1 and #4. A committee of those gentleman should go in the right direction.

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