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namedafterstevie

The Real Osgood Question

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Guest CaliWingsNut

You do realize the Jennings now is essentially what the Vezina was in Sawchuk's day, right? From 1946-1981, the Vezina was given to the starting goalie of the team with the fewest goals against- sounds a lot like the Jennings.

Umm... no I didn't. That's because you're wrong.

Hasek/Osgood won the Jennings in 07-08 and Brodeur won the Vezina. Thomas won the Vezina this season, while Luongo / Schneider won the Jennings. The Jennings is an award that wasn't in existence during Sawchuk's time, meanwhile the Vezina is STILL awarded.

Edited by CaliWingsNut

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Guest 13GoWings40

I actually think there's a better case for Fedorov if you look at the impact he had on the team. Once you start factoring in the attempted jump to Carolina & the way he ultimately left the team, I think he pretty much burned that bridge though.

I hear this argument against #91 all the time, but I bet in 1995 Montreal fans were saying the same types of things about Roy. We have had the fortune of winning a cup since then, but if we don't see the finals for 15 or 20 years (*knocks on wood) we'll start to get really nostalgic for the glory days and I could definitely see it going up.

On topic, I think you could actually make a better case for #30 going to the rafters than you could for the HHOF (although I know Holland would never retire a player's number who wasn't in the hall of fame). I read an article today that showed the Red Wings had a worse regular season GAA and win percentage without Ozzie than with him. However, Ozzie meant a lot to the fans, brought us 2 cups as a starter, and fit the Wing's style perfectly. We will always remember him as a huge part of a very successful era and personally I think it would be really weird to see a #30 on the ice without that old school helmet and without the name Osgood on the back.

Edited by 13GoWings40

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Umm... no I didn't. That's because you're wrong.

Hasek/Osgood won the Jennings in 07-08 and Brodeur won the Vezina. Thomas won the Vezina this season, while Luongo / Schneider won the Jennings. The Jennings is an award that wasn't in existence during Sawchuk's time, meanwhile the Vezina is STILL awarded.

Yes, now look at the requirements for the Vezina in Sawchuk's time.

As written in the Ottawa Citizen, 2/15/1946: "Another change was in the conditions for award of the Vezina Trophy to goal tenders. In future, the award will go to the team with the fewest goals scored against it in the season. The goalie playing the most games for the club will get the cup."

Those were the qualifications for the Vezina Trophy from the middle of the 1946 season through the 1981 season, so all the years that Sawchuk played. It was after the 1981 season it became the trophy for best goaltender.

The qualifications for the Jennings, per the NHL itself: "The William M. Jennings Trophy is an annual award given to the goalkeeper(s) having played a minimum of 25 games for the team with the fewest goals scored against it. Winners are selected based on regular-season play."

The Jennings today is what the Vezina was from 1946 through 1981. Today, they are different, but the Vezina as awarded to Sawchuk would be the Jennings today.

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Umm... no I didn't. That's because you're wrong.

Hasek/Osgood won the Jennings in 07-08 and Brodeur won the Vezina. Thomas won the Vezina this season, while Luongo / Schneider won the Jennings. The Jennings is an award that wasn't in existence during Sawchuk's time, meanwhile the Vezina is STILL awarded.

Casey's point there was that there was no "best goalie" award, which is what the Vezina is now. At that time, the Vezina was what the Jennings is now. The Jennings essentially became the Vezina, and the Vezina changed.

At any rate, thanks for looking up all of those stats. That is the sort of thing that I would look at for arguments for/against getting into the Hall. They most certainly come into play when looking to the rafters, but there are other factors. Stevie was overshadowed by Wayne and Mario when it came to awards, but no one in their right mind would question whether or not he belongs in the rafters. Of course he does. He spent his entire career with the Winged Wheel on his heart, led the team, and became synonymous with the team itself. It's not awards that got him up there.

Again, I'm not questioning who was the better goalie. I'm just saying it is hard to prove that with the stats in different eras.

Terry played in the O-6 era for most of his career. Ozzie played in an ever-expanding era. How do they compare on matters of all-star appearances? On one hand, one could say that one had to be better to even be playing when there were only 6 teams. On the other hand, one could say that being named "allstar" was more difficult when there is so much more competition.

Is one better to be the best of 6 (6 teams; no backups) or is one better to be the best of 60 (30 teams; assuming one backup per team-although there may be more)? An argument could be made either way. We could get into the whole "larger population of NA + addition of Euros" argument. We could argue equipment, medical attention... the list goes on.

At the end of the day, both have impressive stats, and Sawchuck has set the gold standard for goalies in the rafters of the Joe. The question is whether or not Ozzie is up to that standard as a Wing for his era.

If I put money on it, my bet would be no. I don't see him in the rafters, but I would not be indignant if he was chosen.

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I think Ozzie have a better case than Shanny and Fedorov. I think Ozzie's #30 should be up there, but won't lose any sleep if it's not.

Notice I didn't mention McCarty. Draper and Maltby overall were better Red Wings than DMac

Edit: (before anyone accuses me that I just said Drapes #33 and Malts #18 should be up there, you're wrong :lol:).

Edited by Barrie

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Guest CaliWingsNut

Ok... maybe I missed the point of casey's post... still there's about 5-6 more categories that Sawchuk demolishes Osgood. Also, he was backup for the Jennings.

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I'm going to throw out a question here:

What do you consider the most important factor in determining whether or not a number goes to the rafters? What do you consider to be the other factors, and how much emphasis do you give them?

For example, I think we all agree that quality of play and loyalty are both important, but what determines an adequate amount of each? What part do stats play in your evaluation? How about comparison to players of the past from the team and/or how the player compares to his contemporaries?

I don't think there is a particular formula. The best I've heard (and I agree with) is that if there has to be a discussion as to whether or not someone is worthy, the answer is "no".

Ok, that was more than one question I threw. Run with it.

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Guest CaliWingsNut

What do you consider the most important factor in determining whether or not a number goes to the rafters?

Ilitch says so.

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I can't say if Ozzie goes into the rafters or not, but if the criteria is he has to be better than Sawchuk that sets a pretty tough precedent. If that is the criteria then how can a forward get up there unless he is better than Gordie Howe and how can a center get up there unless he is better that The Captain?

Using that kind of logic, there is pretty much no chance you will see anyone other than Lids get up there.

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One of his biggest slappies, but no.

Osgood was a very good to great (post-lockout) goaltender who ended up being as stable as he could be in front of a world class hockey team. He was never a world beater with Detroit. He was waived for a better goaltender from Detroit. He is not a legend by any stretch. He is simply an underdog fan favorite who was able to ****** more success than any current goaltender in the league.

The only one who is deserving of his number in the rafters right now is Nick. Not even 91, 13, or 40 are there.

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Everyone is debating whether or not Osgood should make the hall of fame. However, I think a more pressing question is whether or not Osgood will hang in the rafters next to the other retired numbers? Is Yzerman going to be the only one from the 90s-00s era to make it there? While I think that Lidstrom will end up being the only one from the era to join him up there, I feel that Shanny, McCarty, and Ozzie's case for a banner should at least be made.

Shanny was good in his time here, but of players he has played with other than Osgood who were around for a while, the following have contributed more as Red Wings: Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Chelios, Datsyuk, Zetterberg. I personally would include Osgood as well. So to argue Shanahan for retirement is pretty silly.

Ozzie you can make a case for, same for Fedorov and Shanahan but McCarty just isn't the caliber player we retire, if you're going to do him then you'd have to look at the entire grindline.

Ozzie and Fedorov are deserving. Both were key players on championship caliber teams for extended periods, and were top players at their positions during that time. Shanahan was a key player for the Wings, but he was not as important to the team as the other two. He gets a lot of consideration on the retirement threads because he's considered the "missing piece" that turned the Wings into a Cup winner. One wonders whether a team with Keith Primeau and Paul Coffey would have done as well in 1997. After all, Vernon won the Conn Smythe; the team went to the conference finals the year before (without Shanahan) and would win the Cup the following year without Vernon or Konstantinov. The inclusion of McCarty in this discussion pretty much ensures retirement for Red Wing greats like Reed Larson, Ebbie Goodfellow, Marty Barry, Flash Hollett, Greg Stefan, Gerard Gallant, and Bob Probert, among others who should actually be retired like Red Kelly, Syd Howe, and Norm Ullman.

Is he as good as or better than Sawchuck?

That depends. Sawchuk played on one of if not the most dominant team of all-time. Osgood played on a very good team. Osgood has managed to post numbers that rival Sawchuk's, if not exceed them. So it can be argued that Osgood's performance as a Wing compared to Sawchuk's was, at worst, not far behind.

5 of course, 13 is on his way, 40 still has some 'splaining to do.

The statement of Datsyuk being on his way while Zetterberg isn't is excessively ignorant. You are basically saying that because Dats is flashier, he is more deserving of retirement. Because the two have been so close in play level over the years, that is perhaps the biggest difference. Although I think retiring Datsyuk and not retiring Fedorov would be an injustice to the latter.

Ozzie yes.

Shanny maybe.

McCarty no.

and because it was mentioned

Fedorov hell no.

Ozzie I consider a career Red Wing, he spent four seasons away from the Wings because the Wings had Hasek, Cujo, and Legace in that time frame, most prominently. Shanny, I'm not so sure, he spent more seasons with other teams than the Wings, I'm in doubt. McCarty.. no, his accomplishments weren't nearly of the same standard that Ozzie had. Fedorov, monster stats, but the way he left the organization stains the good he did, and burned bridges. I don't believe the Red Wings organization would want Fedorov's number retired and if they ever did retire his number it would be due to pressure from outside of it.

Fedorov left because he was treated like s*** during contract negotiations. He was given an offer of $50m for 5 years, but was unavailable to respond for a few days. When he did respond, it had been reduced to $40m over 4 years. Fedorov wanted the five-year term. He was basically told "take it or leave it" by Wings management. He instead signed with Anaheim for the same $40m but over five years. He effectively took less pay to guarantee the fifth year.

Shanahan, on the other hand, left because he wasn't going to have a reduced role was looking for $5.5m per team, when he had made $2.28m the previous year.

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I'm going to throw out a question here:

What do you consider the most important factor in determining whether or not a number goes to the rafters? What do you consider to be the other factors, and how much emphasis do you give them?

For example, I think we all agree that quality of play and loyalty are both important, but what determines an adequate amount of each? What part do stats play in your evaluation? How about comparison to players of the past from the team and/or how the player compares to his contemporaries?

I don't think there is a particular formula. The best I've heard (and I agree with) is that if there has to be a discussion as to whether or not someone is worthy, the answer is "no".

Ok, that was more than one question I threw. Run with it.

It is some combination of skill and commitment/value to the Wings. I agree in that there is no correct formula for this.

You mentioned it, and I brought it up previously- if there is a discussion if a number should be retired, then it shouldn't be retired.

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I think Ozzie makes it to the hall a few years down the line. He's not going to be first ballot, that's for sure. However, his number will not hang in the rafters at the Joe, nor do I think he should expect it.

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If Ed Belfour made it to the hall of fame, Chris Osgood is in.

#30 will no longer be worn by a member of the Detroit Red Wings. #5 will no longer be worn by a member of the Detroit Red Wings post-Lidstrom.

Shanahan won't have his number retired here, because he played in too many places (HFD, NJ, NYR, DET, STL)

McCarty won't have his number retired here because aside from flattening Fraude Ledouche in 1997 and scoring the 97 cup winner, what else has he really done? Went to Calgary, had problems, came back, retired.

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If Ed Belfour made it to the hall of fame, Chris Osgood is in.

#30 will no longer be worn by a member of the Detroit Red Wings. #5 will no longer be worn by a member of the Detroit Red Wings post-Lidstrom.

Shanahan won't have his number retired here, because he played in too many places (HFD, NJ, NYR, DET, STL)

McCarty won't have his number retired here because aside from flattening Fraude Ledouche in 1997 and scoring the 97 cup winner, what else has he really done? Went to Calgary, had problems, came back, retired.

Belfour was one of the 3 or 4 best goalies in the world for about 10 years.

Ozzie was never in that class, period.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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Belfour was one of the 3 or 4 best goalies in the world for about 10 years.

Ozzie was never in that class, period.

During Osgood's career, the top six goalies in the world were, in no order, Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, Osgood, and Joseph. Other guys broke into that group at times and had a hot year or two, or an old vet might have a revival, but that was the top handful. If you're saying that Belfour is closer to Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur than he is to Osgood and Joseph... well, let's just say I don't agree.

LOL Osgood in the rafters? Some of your should play the "which one is not like the others game".

Hmm. Gordie Howe; he retired and then when he decided he still wanted to play, went to the WHA.

I win!

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Guest echos myron
During Osgood's career, the top six goalies in the world were, in no order, Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, Osgood, and Joseph

and there's a pretty obvious drop off after roy, hasek, brodeur, and belfour

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and there's a pretty obvious drop off after roy, hasek, brodeur, and belfour

That and the fact that most shooters would tell you Belfour was much harder to score on than Osgood.

Ozzie was a good goalie, but not elite. While Belfour ranks behind Hasek, Roy and Brodeur on the all-time list, he was in the same class of those players for many seasons. Ozzie was never in that class. No one thought so back then, and I don't know how anyone can think that now.

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Hmm. Gordie Howe; he retired and then when he decided he still wanted to play, went to the WHA.

I win!

Sorry but this makes no sense. Either you didn't understand my post or quoted the wrong thing?

Edited by Pucks

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Guest CaliWingsNut

The more I think about it, the less I think he deserves so much honor. I don't think he deserves his banner raised (beforehand I said I wasn't in love with the thought)

He was a good NHL level goalie. His stats were average. The only things that make him a notable player are his length of tenure with the Wings and the success that is linked to it.

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The more I think about it, the less I think he deserves so much honor. I don't think he deserves his banner raised (beforehand I said I wasn't in love with the thought)

He was a good NHL level goalie. His stats were average. The only things that make him a notable player are his length of tenure with the Wings and the success that is linked to it.

I think Ozzie is not given credit for a simple fact. The Wings wouldn't have kept him around for so long, or brought him back, if he wasn't a top end goalie. They would have gone out and gotten a Belfour if he was such an upgrade. Ultimately, Hasek became available for such a low price (Kozlov for Hasek? Sure.) So that's a trade you make, especially with a backup as solid as Legace was proving to be. Holland also expected to be able to trade Osgood, which obviously didn't happen. But he didn't go out and trade for Belfour; he traded for Hasek.

You can argue that Belfour had two Vezinas and that defeats what Osgood did. But Osgood went to the Cup Finals three times as a starter, winning twice. He was a key player in all three runs. According to an article I read the other day, he has the fourth-highest winning percentage of all "qualified" goaltenders; plus a playoff winning percentage that embarrasses a great number of HOFers who played on greater teams. He has one of the highest career win totals in both regular season and playoffs. Whether you like his save percentage or not, he brought home the wins. And no, it wasn't a "His team was stacked like pancakes at IHOP" situation. Osgood won in Detroit. He won in New York. He won in St. Louis. He was a winner. If a 32 year-old Osgood were in net for Vancouver this year instead of 32 year-old Luongo, they would have won the Cup.

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LOL Osgood in the rafters? Some of your should play the "which one is not like the others game".

not a chance. lidstrom will be up there for sure. osgood's numbers are good but he is in no way in the same class of numbers hanging above the ice (and even one that's not hanging and in all intents and purposes should be *cough* larry aurie *cough*).

it's absurd that there are even some thinking draper's belongs up there. we can't retire all fan favorites otherwise we'll end up like montreal - nothing but numbers 50-90.

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