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jollymania

Diving

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FYI, last season there was a reported, 80 concussions in the NHL regular season, and that's just reported. And that doesn't include playoffs when the intensity is that much higher.

They need to do something about head shots because more guys are going to have problems like Crosby is facing now. Plus there's the low quality of life they'll face when their careers are over with all the stress their brain has experienced when they played.

I think with all the head shots, parents won't allow their kids to play hockey, and we'll lose out on a generation of great hockey players.

Think long term...

And that's only big named players. The list probably doubles or triples when you include mid to low level players.

the question is how many of these are from illegal head hits? probably like 3. That is why it isn't a problem.

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I can see the point on both sides, this is going to make it incredibly difficult for referees. Any devastating hit can be penalized now if the player dives, even if no head contact is made, because a whiplash effect can happen.

I'd be ok with the player that was the recipeint of a head shot that is penalized severely to be taken off the ice for some time(10 minutes?) if he happens to lay on the ice or anything. That way it will hopefully stop players from taking dives?

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Not sure if the original poster was just trying to be a smart allec or what not, but diving is a problem.

It's just an apples-oranges comparison with the two.

If diving/unsportsmanlike conduct was actually called more than once every 15 games, less people would do it.

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Lindros brought it upon himself

Yep, being a big player who dominates other teams demands that those teams have guys who hit you in the head. Completely warranted.

richter is a goalie

Richter's career was ended by two major consussions in eight months. One was a shot to the mask, and the second was a knee to the head.

deadarch got it form a fight, as did barnaby

It? These guys didn't have their careers ended by one concussion. And BTW- getting punched in the face is less impact than a headshot.

Courtnall and Stevens were big hitters, they never recieved and major big hits as far as i know.

Courtnall was not a "big hitter" he was a speedy scoring winger. He played 30 games in his final two seasons; he went out after 24 games in 1998-99 with a concussion, and returned the following fall. Six games in he received a concussion, and was forced to retire.

Stevens was a big hitter, but he also took big hits. He retired due to PCS, and he didn't get those concussions from hitting people.

Boogaard was a fighter and his career didn't end early because of a concussion you dumbass.

It's believed that Boogaard's death occurred because he was not of sound mind due to the numerous concussions he has received.

Savard was hit illegally.

So was Semin.

Crosby was in an accidental collision.

You're right. The fact that Crosby was injured when someone accidentally hit his head means trying to hit the head should definitely not be punished or considered intent to injure. I bet you think Todd Bertuzzi should carry no responsibility for the Steve Moore incident, also.

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I'd be ok with the player that was the recipeint of a head shot that is penalized severely to be taken off the ice for some time(10 minutes?) if he happens to lay on the ice or anything. That way it will hopefully stop players from taking dives?

That actually happens. The "quiet room", you know? After getting hit to head the player is forced to stay in the room for 15 (?) minutes while a doctor holds his hand and makes him watch MTV. If the player looks like he's enjoying the program the doctor deems the player concussioned and won't allow him to return to the ice.

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That actually happens. The "quiet room", you know? After getting hit to head the player is forced to stay in the room for 15 (?) minutes while a doctor holds his hand and makes him watch MTV. If the player looks like he's enjoying the program the doctor deems the player concussioned and won't allow him to return to the ice.

And that's why Semin was out there for the powerplay?

Not only that, but he didn't miss a shift.

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Stevens was a big hitter, but he also took big hits. He retired due to PCS, and he didn't get those concussions from hitting people.[/font]

Wasn't the final one from taking a slapshot to the head?

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Do you guys think Instant Replay is in the works for the NHL? Seems that the officials could sure use it with all of these plays under such close scrutiny. It's hard to tell without slow motion what actually happened. I feel like the NHL needs it at this point.

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I'm not sure where you get the neck movement thing. This wasn't a "drive my car into the wall" collision. It was more like a bounce pass in basketball. Leblanc's angle of approach was not that different than the actual alignment of Semin's body. As for Semin going to the ice; he had just curled around at full speed receiving a pass, and was hit during this process and thrown off his skates. His body goes sideways towards the boards because of a little thing called centrifugal motion.

I don't believe he was hit hard enough to be thrown off his skates; the dude jumped. If anything, centrifugal force helped him elude any type of significant impact being delivered to the head.

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And that's why Semin was out there for the powerplay?

Not only that, but he didn't miss a shift.

I meant that that's what's supposed to happen. I have no idea why Semin wasn't thrown into "the room".

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I meant that that's what's supposed to happen. I have no idea why Semin wasn't thrown into "the room".

Yeah, I guess what I mean is it should be cut and dry if you are laying on the ice and the other player is given a game misconduct it should be in everyone's best interest to check the well being of the player hit and have him taken to the room.

To me it's a no brainer, hopefully it would cut down on players embellishing if they know they can't come right back out on the ice, and make it so a player doesn't come back to the game too quickly ~ala Crosby.

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Diving is certainly a problem that the NHL and their dips*** referees have helped fester in the league, as someone else mentioned, akin to soccer. This is nothing new as far as the NHL and it's system of refereeing is concerned as we know the number of years they put their whistles away before the lockout for hooking, holding, interference, and other types of obstruction.

Obviously it isn't more dangerous per se than head shots, dunno what OP was smoking when he said that, but I hope he meant that in this situation the obvious problem here is the dive more than the potential jab at the head.

My take is, in this particular play it's, at worst, a jab to the head -- so.. interference? Roughing? And going with the worst case scenario, it's still a huge embellishment and a really excessive penalty. How do you take the NHL seriously when you see this nonsense. Embarrassing.

If the NHL sees it has a problem, why not just address it and act on even keel? They're avoiding issues like diving but then overreacting to head shots. Is this bi-polar league?

Edited by Shoreline

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Diving is certainly a problem that the NHL and their dips*** referees have helped fester in the league, as someone else mentioned, akin to soccer.

Obviously it isn't more dangerous per se than head shots, dunno what OP was smoking when he said that, but I hope he meant that in this situation the obvious problem here is the dive more than the potential jab at the head.

My take is, in this particular play it's, at worst, a jab to the head -- so.. interference? Roughing? And going with the worst case scenario, it's still a huge embellishment and a really excessive penalty. How do you take the NHL seriously when you see this nonsense. Embarrassing.

They have diving and embellishment in the NBA as well.

Hell, plenty of baseball players feign injury or contact with the ball on a pitch to get calls their way.

The NHL isn't a joke for having people who dive. It is simply one of many sports that have people who demean their respect around their respective leagues by diving.

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They have diving and embellishment in the NBA as well.

Hell, plenty of baseball players feign injury or contact with the ball on a pitch to get calls their way.

The NHL isn't a joke for having people who dive. It is simply one of many sports that have people who demean their respect around their respective leagues by diving.

Which is what's so disappointing about it. Hockey for the most part has been free of most the crap that I don't like about other pro sports. Diving. Massive egos. unbelievable (and sometimes illegal) activities by players outside of the game.

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They have diving and embellishment in the NBA as well.

Hell, plenty of baseball players feign injury or contact with the ball on a pitch to get calls their way.

The NHL isn't a joke for having people who dive. It is simply one of many sports that have people who demean their respect around their respective leagues by diving.

The NHL is not a joke for having people who dive, that's correct, but it was not my assertion that the league is a joke just because people dive. They are joke because of how they handle diving.

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The NHL is not a joke for having people who dive, that's correct, but it was not my assertion that the league is a joke just because people dive. They are joke because of how they handle diving.

How does Soccer, Baseball, or the NBA handle diving?

It's honestly not something that only has to do with the NHL. Due to the gray area with "intent", most leagues don't lay the hammer down on dives and embellishments.

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What ever became of the NHL that I "grew up" with?

Back then it was embarassing to do what we see in todays game - embellishment...There was a time when you "took a number" of the opposition...Todays NHL it's all about looking over at the refs, and plead your case as though he were a wide receiver in the NFL.

{copy/pasted from another thread}

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Yep, being a big player who dominates other teams demands that those teams have guys who hit you in the head. Completely warranted.

Richter's career was ended by two major consussions in eight months. One was a shot to the mask, and the second was a knee to the head.

It? These guys didn't have their careers ended by one concussion. And BTW- getting punched in the face is less impact than a headshot.

Courtnall was not a "big hitter" he was a speedy scoring winger. He played 30 games in his final two seasons; he went out after 24 games in 1998-99 with a concussion, and returned the following fall. Six games in he received a concussion, and was forced to retire.

Stevens was a big hitter, but he also took big hits. He retired due to PCS, and he didn't get those concussions from hitting people.

It's believed that Boogaard's death occurred because he was not of sound mind due to the numerous concussions he has received.

So was Semin.

You're right. The fact that Crosby was injured when someone accidentally hit his head means trying to hit the head should definitely not be punished or considered intent to injure. I bet you think Todd Bertuzzi should carry no responsibility for the Steve Moore incident, also.

well your comments are moot, especially the one about lindros which clearly illustrates you don't know the reason for lindros's issues, because they still don't show that legal head hits were the key to the concussions, rather other things (besides lindros who it was legal head hits but they were legitimized by his playing style).

courtnall:

about the punches not being as bad as shoulders then why are we discussing barnaby, deadmarsh, and especially boogaard because he never got a head shot.

Stevens never got laid out with a fair shoulder check to the head, simply did not happen, yeah he was checked but not legal shots to the head. He also got beamed in the head with a puck.

And bertuzzis incident was not the same as the crosby one what a horrible comparison.

oh and semin was basically not even touched, quit it with that bs argument

How does Soccer, Baseball, or the NBA handle diving?

It's honestly not something that only has to do with the NHL. Due to the gray area with "intent", most leagues don't lay the hammer down on dives and embellishments.

very poorly, and in a physical honor-based sport like hockey it needs to be policed much more severly

Edited by jollymania

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How does Soccer, Baseball, or the NBA handle diving?

It's honestly not something that only has to do with the NHL. Due to the gray area with "intent", most leagues don't lay the hammer down on dives and embellishments.

Each sport and league has various levels of physicality to them. Why would I compare apples and oranges when we're just talking hockey and the NHL? That's a rather pointless and illogical debate that would lead nowhere in respect to how the NHL handles diving.

By your logic the league shouldn't have even bothered calling obstruction because of what you describe as a "gray area" of "intent". This gray area is not very gray. Accidental obstruction is okay, it's coincidental. Purposeful obstruction is penalized. Calls on accidental obstruction seemed not to have changed, they don't get called, but purposeful obstruction, the league has changed how it calls it, and the fact that obstruction was rampant and negatively affected the league prompted changes. One can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to obstruct someone, hence the sensitivity to sticks on the body of a person chasing the puck, as well as purposeful physical contact to divert someone chasing a puck. Likewise, they can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to embellish a hit. This was a pretty ******* obvious-as-day embellishment of a hit that looks like it might have possibly, worst case scenario, grazed Semin's head -- regardless of how vile it appears for a player to stick his arm out at somebody.

Edited by Shoreline

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well your comments are moot, especially the one about lindros which clearly illustrates you don't know the reason for lindros's issues, because they still don't show that legal head hits were the key to the concussions, rather other things (besides lindros who it was legal head hits but they were legitimized by his playing style).

courtnall:

about the punches not being as bad as shoulders then why are we discussing barnaby, deadmarsh, and especially boogaard because he never got a head shot.

Stevens never got laid out with a fair shoulder check to the head, simply did not happen, yeah he was checked but not legal shots to the head. He also got beamed in the head with a puck.

And bertuzzis incident was not the same as the crosby one what a horrible comparison.

oh and semin was basically not even touched, quit it with that bs argument

very poorly, and in a physical honor-based sport like hockey it needs to be policed much more severly

You still don't get the reason I brought up any of those names. These are guys whose careers were ruined because they got their brains turned to goo. As for your "legal head hits" go back and take a look at all of the hits Lindros took over the years. I bet you that he took far more shots to the melon than you think.

Geoff Courtnall. Yes, that's a very nice hit on Roenick. But I will say it again, he was not a big hitter. Even the power for that hit right there comes mostly from Roenick's legs, not Courtnall's. He was able to lay that hit because he knew Roenick would be there. Roenick didn't even have a clue about Courtnall because he was too busy shooting. Was Fedorov a big hitter? Is Datsyuk? They lay hits like that. Courtnall was a scorer who had enough hockey IQ to be able to hit a guy if he needed to (like that Roenick vid) but he wasn't Kevin Stevens. Whose career was also shortened drastically due to head injuries.

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What ever became of the NHL that I "grew up" with?

Back then it was embarassing to do what we see in todays game - embellishment...There was a time when you "took a number" of the opposition...Todays NHL it's all about looking over at the refs, and plead your case as though he were a wide receiver in the NFL.

{copy/pasted from another thread}

I'm afraid those days are coming to an end, good man. Granted, not all players embellish hits and fake injuries like Semin did the other night, but its not a complete rarity. Weren't they cracking down on diving a few years back? I wish we saw more dives being called for minor penalties.

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The NHL builds a new arena or two every year, and they still won't make the ice surface bigger. That's the LARGEST problem in the game today. There's no room out there anymore. They should lengthen the playing surface 20 feet and make it 20 feet wider. Olympic size or bigger. There are no athletes that move faster than NHL players and are allowed to hit each other person to person. The average player height was 5'6" in 1900 and the average speed was approx 15 mph. Now, the average player height is closer to 6'1" and the average speed is 25 mph. What the hell does the NHL think is going to happen? Bigger Rink solves all these problems, but the NHL is too stupid to figure that out.

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Why the NHL won't adopt Olympic size ice like other leagues is beyond me. With improvements in conditioning and equipment players need more room.

Back on topic though, its hard to argue diving hasn't become more common. But at the same time, hockey has evolved past grinding to the current more skillful (passing, shooting, stick handling, etc) game. Diving happens in all sports, you try to draw a foul because you gain an advantage. And since hockey is less of a grinder sport now, it's possible to dive because we don't view chippy play as "part of the game" anymore. I think the issue is overblown mostly, I very rarely see flagrant diving. Sure, sometimes a guy gets his ankle hooked and goes down when he may have been able to stay up, but its hardly like soccer. Its part of the game just like fighting, it has its time and place.

No, i'm not saying players should go slide for home every time a player is within five feet. Blatant dives deserve penalties, a player should at least be sly about it. None of that Crosby face-grab, lay there s***.

edicius likes this

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Each sport and league has various levels of physicality to them. Why would I compare apples and oranges when we're just talking hockey and the NHL? That's a rather pointless and illogical debate that would lead nowhere in respect to how the NHL handles diving.

Because you need to understand the pitfalls that ALL leagues face in regards to something that requires knowledge of intent before saying how the league is a joke. In all honesty it has taken great strides and I don't see the NHL getting the "diving" card that soccer will have for all eternity.

By your logic the league shouldn't have even bothered calling obstruction because of what you describe as a "gray area" of "intent". This gray area is not very gray. Accidental obstruction is okay, it's coincidental. Purposeful obstruction is penalized. Calls on accidental obstruction seemed not to have changed, they don't get called, but purposeful obstruction, the league has changed how it calls it, and the fact that obstruction was rampant and negatively affected the league prompted changes. One can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to obstruct someone, hence the sensitivity to sticks on the body of a person chasing the puck, as well as purposeful physical contact to divert someone chasing a puck. Likewise, they can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to embellish a hit. This was a pretty ******* obvious-as-day embellishment of a hit that looks like it might have possibly, worst case scenario, grazed Semin's head -- regardless of how vile it appears for a player to stick his arm out at somebody.

I can't remember the last time I saw an obstruction call, and you are arguing against something I didn't say anyway. I never said they shouldn't call diving. I'm just saying during a full speed game where the referees make enough mistakes, it is understandable to see why you don't see that many diving calls.

Should Semin have been suspended? Absolutely. But is the league really a joke simply because they have some issues in the sport like all leagues?

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