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Guest Crymson

Can Conner reasonably be sent down?

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Conner looks to be providing a spark and I wouldn't send him down when Eaves gets back.

If Mursak doesn't pan out, that 2006 draft class looks really weak.

Kulemin was picked three after Emmerton and the Wings passed multiple times on Lucic, Anisimov, Marchand, Clutterbuck. Just so used to the Wings drafting well.

Edited by mjlegend

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Man, is Conner ever going to be tired being on both the 3rd and 4th lines. :D

I did have to ask about Prust, as I see his name added to many of your posts. I see everyone on NHL Overtime, and OTF talking about him every night that The Rangers play. I think he's a great 4th liner that probably every team would want on their team. So, I guess my question is, why would Sather let him go any where? And do you really think that Kenny would give up anything close to the offers that Sather could get in a trade for Prust, or do you think that Kenny would throw the kind of money that, say, a Sather type GM would offer as a free agent. I just don't see it happening. And don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a whole line of Brandon Prust's here.

Haha I meant to toss Mursak in there.

As for Prust, I think hes worth a decent penny. Hes the perfect player for the wings really. He provides that toughness, hitting and fighting, is really fast and chipped in 30 points last season. I wouldnt hesitate to give him 2 million a year if I were Holland.

He's one of the few legit enforcers that can play a regular shift and produce some points. I think he would be a difference maker in the wings bottom 6 adding his speed and toughness. He's mores killed than Miller while being a big hitter and great fighter. If Eaves is worth 1.2 I would pay Prust 2

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Conner, Helm & Cleary have had a chemistry unseen, dare I say, since Draper, Maltby, McCarty. At least as bottom 6 lines go. Of course they lack the fighting skills of.McCarty but the checking and quickness is uncanny. When Eaves and Mursak get back, trade Emmerton (if possible) and put Eaves with Abby while rotating Miller with Holmstrom and Mursak. Right now the top three lines are excelling and there is no need to change them, even when all are healed. The trade deadline is gonna be tricky this year, maybe Emmerton can be a package deal for someone....

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Conner, Helm & Cleary have had a chemistry unseen, dare I say, since Draper, Maltby, McCarty. At least as bottom 6 lines go. Of course they lack the fighting skills of.McCarty but the checking and quickness is uncanny. When Eaves and Mursak get back, trade Emmerton (if possible) and put Eaves with Abby while rotating Miller with Holmstrom and Mursak. Right now the top three lines are excelling and there is no need to change them, even when all are healed. The trade deadline is gonna be tricky this year, maybe Emmerton can be a package deal for someone....

agreed completely

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I think it's a little too soon to be getting excited about our 3rd line. They have only had 3 really good games together, and two of those games were pretty much blow outs. There's going to come a game or two when the first two lines "phone" it in and we're going to need our bottom 6 to step up for us. Untill then I'll be cautiously excited for them.

I'm also going bet that now that Cleary is scoring again, it won't be long untill he's put back up in the top 6; ruining the chemistry on all 3 lines.

When, Eaves and Mursak come back, Emmerton and Brunnstrom will be in the ahl and the remaining 4th liners will all be put on rotation, just like last year.

and since we are talking bottom 6, I'd like to point out that IMO Drew Miller has been fantastic this year. They should give him a shot at centre before putting him on bench rotation because he does not deserve to be sat.

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Conner, Helm & Cleary have had a chemistry unseen, dare I say, since Draper, Maltby, McCarty. At least as bottom 6 lines go. Of course they lack the fighting skills of.McCarty but the checking and quickness is uncanny. When Eaves and Mursak get back, trade Emmerton (if possible) and put Eaves with Abby while rotating Miller with Holmstrom and Mursak. Right now the top three lines are excelling and there is no need to change them, even when all are healed. The trade deadline is gonna be tricky this year, maybe Emmerton can be a package deal for someone....

I don't agree. The games the line has been together, the team has been playing great. I would like to see the line more before making a statement like that. IMO the Abby- Helm- Cleary line has been great, as was Bert- Abby- Cleary last playoffs. The current third line has been good, but it is too soon for any statements like yours, especially when the third line has looked as good over similar stretches the past year.

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He's played well, but how many undersized forwards should we keep in our bottom 6?

Hudler, Mursak, Helm and Connor. Can you see those guys wearing a bigger team down physically in a seven game playoff series? If they have a bigger forward there to complement them they do, but not if they're all dressed together at the same time.

Someone is gonna have to sit out or be traded (Hudler).

15,000th post. :siren: :!: :yowza::clap:

Edited by GMRwings1983
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Guess we can all agree the common factor here is helm he is the best... What a gem, what a beast he is. Conner has been solid as I expected and said when he was picked up.

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He's played well, but how many undersized forwards should we keep in our bottom 6?

Hudler, Mursak, Helm and Connor. Can you see those guys wearing a bigger team down physically in a seven game playoff series? If they have a bigger forward there to complement them they do, but not if they're all dressed together at the same time.

Someone is gonna have to sit out or be traded (Hudler).

15,000th post. :siren: :!: :yowza::clap:

Helm doesn't play small at all. He holds his own grinding against anyone. Hudler is weak, yeah, but Connor is showing an ability to play despite his small stature. Honestly I'm not concerned.

And as for Mursak, I think he'll be great when he comes back. Our bottom 6 has got to be the best in the league. I do see Emmerton being shipped out as part of the inevitable trade deadline move, though. Even when he looked decent he wasn't really doing anything or making anything happen.

I think the Wings are going to be dominant if they can make a move at the deadline to get a top six scorer.

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I like Conner and have been quite impressed with him so far, but I can't see him sticking long-term with the Red Wings when everyone gets healthy. I believe the Red Wings still have a roster spot open for when Mursak is ready, but even if not losing Emmerton isn't that big of a concern.

I like both Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves, not so sure both are necessary though. Eaves is the second best penalty killer on the team and a great shot-blocker on the PK, so I would prefer him over Miller among other reasons. I don't understand why Eaves wasn't dressing more before the injury, but I trust Babcock sees something there we don't.

There's quite a logjam in the bottom six, which isn't a bad problem to have. Helm, Cleary, Abdelkader and Holmstrom are almost guarantees to play every night so it leaves two spots open and plenty of competition. Shane Doan would look pretty nice on that third line too. Hope for the Coyotes to fall off.

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Connor has put more on the board and on the floor than Cory, and I've been watching him for 2 years in GR and was dying for him to come up and play. And Fabian is sorta my baby, because he's really trying to stay in what he loves. But Chris impressed me with the Pens, I liked his grit and speed then and I like it more now. He has my vote over both these lads, and frankly over Janny, too. If he can keep it up. Drew and Patrick have earned their spots and will stay with us. Watch and see, unless there is something in the locker room or behind the bench that likes him not....

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Helm doesn't play small at all. He holds his own grinding against anyone. Hudler is weak, yeah, but Connor is showing an ability to play despite his small stature. Honestly I'm not concerned.

And as for Mursak, I think he'll be great when he comes back. Our bottom 6 has got to be the best in the league. I do see Emmerton being shipped out as part of the inevitable trade deadline move, though. Even when he looked decent he wasn't really doing anything or making anything happen.

I think the Wings are going to be dominant if they can make a move at the deadline to get a top six scorer.

It doesn't matter if they play small or not. The fact is that they're smaller forwards. A spade is a spade. I'm saying they won't physically wear teams down if they're all in the lineup at the same time. You need a bigger forward in there somewhere as well. Someone has to be the odd man out.

Doesn't anyone here understand the concept of balance through a lineup? This isn't a video game where you can just throw skilled players of any size on all 4 lines. You need some sandpaper guys out there. There's a difference between regular season success and playoff hockey, and people here keep forgetting it all the time.

The top 6 forward I agree with you. We need to make some kind of move at the deadline. It'll likely involve moving several of our forwards to get some big name in return.

I like Conner and have been quite impressed with him so far, but I can't see him sticking long-term with the Red Wings when everyone gets healthy. I believe the Red Wings still have a roster spot open for when Mursak is ready, but even if not losing Emmerton isn't that big of a concern.

I like both Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves, not so sure both are necessary though. Eaves is the second best penalty killer on the team and a great shot-blocker on the PK, so I would prefer him over Miller among other reasons. I don't understand why Eaves wasn't dressing more before the injury, but I trust Babcock sees something there we don't.

There's quite a logjam in the bottom six, which isn't a bad problem to have. Helm, Cleary, Abdelkader and Holmstrom are almost guarantees to play every night so it leaves two spots open and plenty of competition. Shane Doan would look pretty nice on that third line too. Hope for the Coyotes to fall off.

If we acquire Doan, I don't think he'd be on the 3rd line. He's a better player than Bertuzzi or Hudler, who are both on the top two lines right now.

Not to mention, we'll likely have to trade a forward to get Doan.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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When will people stop calling Miller dead weight?

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/2011_NHL_Review.pdf

That formula would prove that Miller is great for his money.

An easier calculation is this: How many points does Miller have? How many does Eaves have?

By not using formulas and actually watching him play. He'll score the odd goal, PK decently and thats about it. This team has all of that covered and its completely redundant to keep him. There are definitely other guys who would help the team much more

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When will people stop calling Miller dead weight?

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/2011_NHL_Review.pdf

That formula would prove that Miller is great for his money.

An easier calculation is this: How many points does Miller have? How many does Eaves have?

Dead weight and redundant are very different terms. I don't have a problem with Miller -- he is a great value for a 4th liner and has been especially strong this season so far. Honestly, I just don't really see the need for both Miller AND Eaves to play when both are healthy, especially considering the abundance of bottom six forwards the Wings currently possess.

Your second calculation isn't really fair either. Granted Eaves only has one point, but he has played in just ten games compared to 27 for Miller. Besides, points aren't really the best indicator of an effective 4th liner. Sure it's nice if they chip in offensively, but I will still argue Eaves is a much better penalty killer than Miller.

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I don't agree. The games the line has been together, the team has been playing great. I would like to see the line more before making a statement like that. IMO the Abby- Helm- Cleary line has been great, as was Bert- Abby- Cleary last playoffs. The current third line has been good, but it is too soon for any statements like yours, especially when the third line has looked as good over similar stretches the past year.

I totally agree with your apprehension as well. I did say that they have been pretty much one of the best combos (in a checking capacity) that have chemistry together (paraphrasing, of course) since the Grind Line. The key names are Helm and Cleary, as it was being Draper and Maltby. If you recall, both Joe Kocur and Martin Lapointe spent time on the "Grind Line" before McCarty became the permanent fixture there. Just like it seems that Helm and Cleary gel with Eaves just as good as Conner, Conner just brings that extra speed. I will say that comparing Conner or Eaves to Lapointe or Kocur/MCarty is like apples and oranges, but you really cannot argue the Draper/Helm and Cleary/Maltby comparison's. At least they are the closest thing to another "Grind Line" that we have had since those three played together back in the day. My point was just (and I do believe you got it the first time) this line is gelling right now (along with the rest of the team) and as long as they keep it up, it would be stupid to send Conner away. As you mentioned, they have a ways to go to be a true equal to them, but as third line combos go, this combo has been our best all season. (also I think that Eaves has a bit better chemistry with Abby than Helm, but six in one hand, half a dozen in the other)

I believe that Conner has more chemistry with Helm/Cleary than either of Brunnstrom or Emmerton, which is why I think Conner should stay in place of either of them...but that is just my opinion.

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He's played well, but how many undersized forwards should we keep in our bottom 6?

Hudler, Mursak, Helm and Connor. Can you see those guys wearing a bigger team down physically in a seven game playoff series? If they have a bigger forward there to complement them they do, but not if they're all dressed together at the same time.

Someone is gonna have to sit out or be traded (Hudler).

15,000th post. :siren: :!: :yowza::clap:

No, not physically, but the speed that Helm/Conner bring is not kid stuff either. Cleary (and Helm to an extent) can handle a lot of physical play, but when you have the speed of Helm and Conner out there fore-checking, back-checking and dodging body checks, and creating odd man rushes, that can wear down a physical team just as well...

...as good as Hudler is playing (and I am glad he is) I hope it just increases his trade value by the deadline. :)

Connor has put more on the board and on the floor than Cory, and I've been watching him for 2 years in GR and was dying for him to come up and play. And Fabian is sorta my baby, because he's really trying to stay in what he loves. But Chris impressed me with the Pens, I liked his grit and speed then and I like it more now. He has my vote over both these lads, and frankly over Janny, too. If he can keep it up. Drew and Patrick have earned their spots and will stay with us. Watch and see, unless there is something in the locker room or behind the bench that likes him not....

THIS.

I agree, right now if you are asking me today, Conner stays over Brunnstrom and Emmerton. Mursak can rotate with Miller for a bit to see what he really brings and then when Eaves comes back, it's time to deal someone(s).

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This is definitely a good problem to have.

Been very impressed with Conner and I think he's earned a spot to stay temporarily. Absolutely zero clue what to do with other 3rd/4th line personnel to risk losing somebody, I really don't want to lose any of them!

In no particular order...

Miller has been playing well lately and been pretty solid all season so far, you know what you get from him with solid penalty killing and an occasional goal/offensive stat sheet contribution.

Holmstrom is too valuable to scratch because of his potential to get goals or contribute on the power play with his role, even if he only plays 10 minutes a game or barely contributes anything on the stat sheet in even strength. Not that he's been bad even strength, but we know what we're going to get from him there unless he's playing with Datsyuk or Zetterberg and he's not going to see much ice time late in games in defending situations. Still, too valuable to take out.

Eaves is great on the penalty kill and busts his rear end every play and has more offensive upside than Miller. He's not going anywhere once he gets healthy.

Abdelkader hasn't been great, but far from terrible. Unless he falls off the face of the earth he's solid on a 3rd/4th line still.

The biggest wild cards are Emmerton and Mursak. Not that Emmerton has been bad, the other guys are either too valuable in a given role to take out or been playing too good to justify being scratched. Mursak deserves his chance once he's healthy but if he doesn't pan out after so many games (how many, I have no clue), do you risk a trade/waiver with him? Same with Emmerton?

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It doesn't matter if they play small or not. The fact is that they're smaller forwards. A spade is a spade. I'm saying they won't physically wear teams down if they're all in the lineup at the same time. You need a bigger forward in there somewhere as well. Someone has to be the odd man out.

Doesn't anyone here understand the concept of balance through a lineup? This isn't a video game where you can just throw skilled players of any size on all 4 lines. You need some sandpaper guys out there. There's a difference between regular season success and playoff hockey, and people here keep forgetting it all the time.

The top 6 forward I agree with you. We need to make some kind of move at the deadline. It'll likely involve moving several of our forwards to get some big name in return.

If we acquire Doan, I don't think he'd be on the 3rd line. He's a better player than Bertuzzi or Hudler, who are both on the top two lines right now.

Not to mention, we'll likely have to trade a forward to get Doan.

AGREED!

He would for sure be top 6, I would say if Phoenix falls out of the playoff race, Hudler/Emmerton & another prospect could land us Doan to step onto Zetterberg's line (if Doan is the way they go) and that should take care of the log jam in the bottom 6 as well. Just rotate Holmstrom/Miller/Mursak the rest of the season on Abby and Eaves line.

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I totally agree with your apprehension as well. I did say that they have been pretty much one of the best combos (in a checking capacity) that have chemistry together (paraphrasing, of course) since the Grind Line. The key names are Helm and Cleary, as it was being Draper and Maltby. If you recall, both Joe Kocur and Martin Lapointe spent time on the "Grind Line" before McCarty became the permanent fixture there. Just like it seems that Helm and Cleary gel with Eaves just as good as Conner, Conner just brings that extra speed. I will say that comparing Conner or Eaves to Lapointe or Kocur/MCarty is like apples and oranges, but you really cannot argue the Draper/Helm and Cleary/Maltby comparison's. At least they are the closest thing to another "Grind Line" that we have had since those three played together back in the day. My point was just (and I do believe you got it the first time) this line is gelling right now (along with the rest of the team) and as long as they keep it up, it would be stupid to send Conner away. As you mentioned, they have a ways to go to be a true equal to them, but as third line combos go, this combo has been our best all season. (also I think that Eaves has a bit better chemistry with Abby than Helm, but six in one hand, half a dozen in the other)

I believe that Conner has more chemistry with Helm/Cleary than either of Brunnstrom or Emmerton, which is why I think Conner should stay in place of either of them...but that is just my opinion.

2008 third line of Cleary Draper Drake for the playoffs was by far the closest I would say

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2008 third line of Cleary Draper Drake for the playoffs was by far the closest I would say

Ya, which just goes to prove, yet again, that Cleary plays much better on a checking line, rather than trying to make him a top 6 forward. I hope Babs never tries it again!

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Ya, which just goes to prove, yet again, that Cleary plays much better on a checking line, rather than trying to make him a top 6 forward. I hope Babs never tries it again!

Agreed. Cleary showed some good scoring potential last season before his injury, but let's just keep him as a checker for now.

And as for Miller being dead weight, he is redundant, but he's a good energy guy who gives his all and usually makes an impact. That's the kind of guy you want in your bottom 6. Eaves has been the bizarre story of the year. The guy has potential and has a wicked shot, and has always been a great energy guy for us...but this year between the injuries and benchings I feel we haven't really gotten a good look at him.

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2008 third line of Cleary Draper Drake for the playoffs was by far the closest I would say

That line was pretty good. Not an incredible source of offense for a third line but you had Draper, the gritty and intelligent defensive veteran who really knew the game, agitated opponents with his mouth and work ethic, and served as a big voice in the locker room and on the bench; and Drake who fans hated during the regular season but turned out to be quite a wrecking ball on the ice and he knew the game as well. Cleary, though, imo wasn't near 95-100% because of the jaw situation but he played well defensively. Draper and Drake made that line awesome though mainly because of their veteran knowledge and experience and they really excelled in a playoff style and atmosphere.

I don't really think we've really seen anything like that line since. At best a younger, unpolished version of that line at some points the past few years. I have yet to see anything close to a young Dallas Drake.

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