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MrBest7

Message to Ken Holland...

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Speaking of signing players....there seems to be alot of us wishing for Harding to be Howards backup...what about Gustavsson or Clemmensen? Johnson seems to have lost his backup spot in Pitt as well...Al Montoya? Even Marty Biron had a nice season...

I'd rather keep Joey Mac over all of those guys. Harding would be a definite upgrade.

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The Preds have $38M in cap space, a handful of decent roleplayers already signed for cheap, and a few more that should be cheap to re-sign. They are prefectly capable of paying Weber $10M+ and still filling out a decent roster in the $55-60M range. You're not going to hurt them by forcing them to pay a little more than they want.

Giving up 4 firsts isn't just giving up 4 players we could protentially draft. It's also giving up the ability to trade those picks in the future. Between that and needing to significantly overpay to get him, you sacrifice a lot of flexibility. If he didn't mesh well with our system, or other holes in the lineup appear, we could still end up out of the playoffs...possibly giving up one or more top-10 picks. Maybe not likely, but it's a big risk to take for the right to overpay someone.

I'll say again, the RFA system is designed to very heaviliy favor the team owning the RFA rights. It gives a little bargaining power to the player, but little risk of the team losing its young assets. Offer sheets are very, very rarely worth making. It would have to be a team unable to match a fair offer or a player that the owning team isn't interested in keeping.

The Preds have refused in their entire history to spend higher than the cap floor, IIRC. Why would they loosen up the purse strings so much now?

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

The Preds have refused in their entire history to spend higher than the cap floor, IIRC. Why would they loosen up the purse strings so much now?

Because if they don't then Carrie Underwood will take a Louisville slugger to the Preds zamboni headlights.

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I'd rather keep Joey Mac over all of those guys. Harding would be a definite upgrade.

Problem with Mac is his health...if he didn't have the back issues, they wouldn't be looking for a back-up...would you still rather keep a lame Joey Mac or have a healthy Gustavsson? I too have Harding on the top of my list, but I think there are other places that he could wind up in starting role and then where do we go from there?

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Problem with Mac is his health...if he didn't have the back issues, they wouldn't be looking for a back-up...would you still rather keep a lame Joey Mac or have a healthy Gustavsson? I too have Harding on the top of my list, but I think there are other places that he could wind up in starting role and then where do we go from there?

Gustavsson (aka the Monster) has heart problems. I'll take my chances with Joey Mac's wonky back over a goalie who may collapse on the ice at any given time. Plus I don't think Gustavsson is that good anyway. I think Kenny would like to upgrade the back-up goalie position but he will not sign a guy just for the sake of signing him. Basically Joey Mac is the back-up unless a guy like Harding becomes available. I don't know who else is available which makes any sense for the Wings to trade for or sign. Maybe Kenny has a few in mind. I don't know.

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Guest Kronstantinov   
Guest Kronstantinov

I think Weber would easily be worth 4 firsts if we could get him for that but I think Nashville would match any offer we made

Problem with Mac is his health...if he didn't have the back issues, they wouldn't be looking for a back-up...would you still rather keep a lame Joey Mac or have a healthy Gustavsson? I too have Harding on the top of my list, but I think there are other places that he could wind up in starting role and then where do we go from there?

A healthy Gustavsson is a lame Gustavsson

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The Preds have refused in their entire history to spend higher than the cap floor, IIRC. Why would they loosen up the purse strings so much now?

The last three years the Preds have been $3.9M, 7.5M, and 3.4M over the floor. Next year, assuming the $70.3M cap figure and the floor rules stay in the new CBA, the floor would be $54.3M. That would put their expected internal cap right in the $55-60M range I mentioned in my post. Depending on their revenue figures for this year, and their recent taste of playoff success, they might even go higher.

Just the fact that, as it stands now, they have to spend $22M should tell you they aren't going to skimp on their captain and the face of their franchise.

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The Preds have $38M in cap space, a handful of decent roleplayers already signed for cheap, and a few more that should be cheap to re-sign. They are prefectly capable of paying Weber $10M+ and still filling out a decent roster in the $55-60M range. You're not going to hurt them by forcing them to pay a little more than they want.

I want the small Nashville market to over pay for Shea Weber. I think Nashville is getting a deal for $7.5 million. Without the cap, Shea Weber would easily have a salary of $10 million. Nashville paying $10 million WITH the cap... priceless!

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Just the fact that, as it stands now, they have to spend $22M should tell you they aren't going to skimp on their captain and the face of their franchise.

While they have considerable cap space, they also have 15 free agents to sign or replace, including their most expensive free agent, Shea Weber. If Weber signs for the exact same salary as last year (not likely, as he'll probably get some kind of raise), that gives them 14 players left to sign, with 14.5 million to the floor.

I agree that it's a given that they'll spend above the floor, but I'm not so sure how much above it they will spend. Even though they've made the 2nd round 2 years in a row, they were eliminated in 6 games last year and 5 games this year, so they've only had 5 "bonus" home games outside of the first round in the last 2 years. Those games help fill the war chest for future years, but I'm not so sure that it would be enough to cause them to start spending more towards the ceiling than the floor.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

I want the small Nashville market to over pay for Shea Weber. I think Nashville is getting a deal for $7.5 million. Without the cap, Shea Weber would easily have a salary of $10 million. Nashville paying $10 million WITH the cap... priceless!

It isn't about the money with Weber. He wants out of Nashville. If he wanted to stay he would have already signed a long term deal last summer. Nashville could offer 11 mil a season and he still wouldn't sign it. Like Suter, his actions say he wants out of Nashville.

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Until he (Weber) wins 4 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe trophy and 7 Norris Trophies, he cannot compare to Lidstrom. Weber may indeed may end up accomplishing alot in his career but then again he may not. We don't know that yet. I agree that Weber is worth giving up 3 1st round picks. He IS that good. But IMO he will never be in Lidstrom's league as one of the best dman to ever play the game. I mean we are talking about which dmen are the best of ALL TIME not which dmen are the best currently. Weber has a LONG way to go to even apprpach Lidstrom's awesome legacy of greatness. Will Weber play 20 seasons in the NHL as a top pairing dman? Maybe. Maybe not.

Weber will rarely make great passes to rack up a lot of assists like Lidstrom.

. Weber is in the category of
, and
. Opposing players hate 7 game series against these style of players. They sap the energy out of the best players.

I trade and research stock for a living. So I naturally think of future potential in players, because past performance doesn't make money. However, the past can help understand the future. I'm always looking for the next Microsoft or next Lidstrom or next Chris Pronger... It's in my blood...

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It isn't about the money with Weber. He wants out of Nashville. If he wanted to stay he would have already signed a long term deal last summer. Nashville could offer 11 mil a season and he still wouldn't sign it. Like Suter, his actions say he wants out of Nashville.

Excellent point...You make a good case to wait for next year when he's unrestricted...

However...there is one scenario we haven't thought about... Nashville trading Shea Weber for multiple players at the trading deadline. It happened with Eric Lindros... hence the might Colorado Avalanche were created under Patrick Roy.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Excellent point...You make a good case to wait for next year when he's unrestricted...

However...there is one scenario we haven't thought about... Nashville trading Shea Weber for multiple players at the trading deadline. It happened with Eric Lindros... hence the might Colorado Avalanche were created under Patrick Roy.

Actually I have thought about this scenario and I responded to another poster about it yesterday. Even if Weber is traded in the summer, during the season, or at the trade deadline, it does not mean he will sign a contract extension with that team. Essentially they would have him until next July 1st. Maybe he is traded to a team and he likes it there and does sign a new contract. Nashville is clinging to the faint hope they can keep both Suter and Weber because with those 2 players gone, their team basically becomes irrelevant. It's basically Pekka Rinne and everyone else. Poile has offered both these players numerous contract proposals and has been consistently shot down for 2 years now. He keeps upping the ante and it simply does not matter. They both want out of Nashville.

As for Roy, the Avs were there before he got there. Roy was the missing piece of their puzzle that's for sure. He put them over the top much like Shanahan put the Wings over the top in 96-97. Poile has been in denial for too long now. He should have read the tea leaves and known neither Weber or Suter wanted to stay in Nashville long term and traded them to get maximum value for them. Now he will get nothing for Suter unless he trades his rights before July 1st. Which is a far cry for what he could have received for him last summer, during the season or at the deadline. He made a choice. He went all in for this season and tried to win a Cup so he could convince both Suter and Weber to sign long term deals to stay in Nashville. He brought back Radulov and overpaid for Gaustad and also brought in Kostitsyn. He traded for Hal Gill. His gamble failed and now he has to live with the consequences. He SHOULD trade Weber this summer but I don't think he will. Poile seems to be in as much denial as Lou Lam is in NJ. He will end up getting no value in return for Parise who will be gone on July 1st. GMs can be their own worst enemy. Denial makes good GMs dumb sometimes.

Edited by Hatethedrake!

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Excellent point...You make a good case to wait for next year when he's unrestricted...

However...there is one scenario we haven't thought about... Nashville trading Shea Weber for multiple players at the trading deadline. It happened with Eric Lindros... hence the might Colorado Avalanche were created under Patrick Roy.

Now this I could see a team like Nashville doing.

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no way,will nashville let ya'll guys have both of their all-star defencemans.it isn't guaranteed that ryan suter will sign with detroit

It's not guaranteed he stays in Nashville either. They aren't the market to be a cap ceiling team, regardless of what David Poile says. I think it's been quiet because Suter doesn't want to bolt out and show up the organization, plus the Finals were going on. He will test the market, and would be foolish not to do so. I presented a question to their radio guys that which did not get a response.

"If the Predators couldn't get past the 2nd round WITH Suter and Weber, why now all of a sudden they are a Cup Contender by retaining them, at a MUCH MUCH more expensive rate, which affects resigning / obtaining other talents due to less cap space." You could hear a pin drop.

Actually I have thought about this scenario and I responded to another poster about it yesterday. Even if Weber is traded in the summer, during the season, or at the trade deadline, it does not mean he will sign a contract extension with that team. Essentially they would have him until next July 1st. Maybe he is traded to a team and he likes it there and does sign a new contract. Nashville is clinging to the faint hope they can keep both Suter and Weber because with those 2 players gone, their team basically becomes irrelevant. It's basically Pekka Rinne and everyone else. Poile has offered both these players numerous contract proposals and has been consistently shot down for 2 years now. He keeps upping the ante and it simply does not matter. They both want out of Nashville.

As for Roy, the Avs were there before he got there. Roy was the missing piece of their puzzle that's for sure. He put them over the top much like Shanahan put the Wings over the top in 96-97. Poile has been in denial for too long now. He should have read the tea leaves and known neither Weber or Suter wanted to stay in Nashville long term and traded them to get maximum value for them. Now he will get nothing for Suter unless he trades his rights before July 1st. Which is a far cry for what he could have received for him last summer, during the season or at the deadline. He made a choice. He went all in for this season and tried to win a Cup so he could convince both Suter and Weber to sign long term deals to stay in Nashville. He brought back Radulov and overpaid for Gaustad and also brought in Kostitsyn. He traded for Hal Gill. His gamble failed and now he has to live with the consequences. He SHOULD trade Weber this summer but I don't think he will. Poile seems to be in as much denial as Lou Lam is in NJ. He will end up getting no value in return for Parise who will be gone on July 1st. GMs can be their own worst enemy. Denial makes good GMs dumb sometimes.

Good points, and there was talk of a long term deal for Weber when Rinne was given his big pay-day (Somewhere around 7yrs @ 8 per which was turned down) but one of the Philly writers said the Flyers should try and deal for him, it would of course have to involve JVR and a combo of players picks and prospects, which would help Nashville in the long run, this team has many holes to fill and that would help. The reasoning behind NOT doing that, is people are threatening to drop their season tickets if Weber is not retained. I guess they don't see the big picture in all of this.

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Holland would be stupid to sign Weber to an offer sheet this summer. Poile would just match it. NEXT summer is when Kenny will go after Weber. Kenny's 3 steps to getting the Wings back to the Cup are...Parise. Suter. Weber. 2 of the 3 happen this summer and the last one happens next summer. Think of the A TEAM. I love it when a plan comes together.

Holland is too tightwad to throw picks away such as 4 #1's don't see that happening anytime soon. 4 1st rounders is too much for anyone. Not when they are about to become UFA the next season.

Edited by 2probert4

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Holland is too tightwad to throw picks away such as 4 #1's don't see that happening anytime soon. 4 1st rounders is too much for anyone. Not when they are about to become UFA the next season.

You're absolutely correct. Why give up 4 picks for one difference maker when we can get 4 Quincey's?

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The last three years the Preds have been $3.9M, 7.5M, and 3.4M over the floor. Next year, assuming the $70.3M cap figure and the floor rules stay in the new CBA, the floor would be $54.3M. That would put their expected internal cap right in the $55-60M range I mentioned in my post. Depending on their revenue figures for this year, and their recent taste of playoff success, they might even go higher.

Just the fact that, as it stands now, they have to spend $22M should tell you they aren't going to skimp on their captain and the face of their franchise.

they also (counting Weber and Suter) had 15 combined UFA and RFAs to decide upon (Radulov and Andrei Kostitsyn are not returning) so 13. Plus they have deals running out after next season.

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While they have considerable cap space, they also have 15 free agents to sign or replace, including their most expensive free agent, Shea Weber. If Weber signs for the exact same salary as last year (not likely, as he'll probably get some kind of raise), that gives them 14 players left to sign, with 14.5 million to the floor.

I agree that it's a given that they'll spend above the floor, but I'm not so sure how much above it they will spend. Even though they've made the 2nd round 2 years in a row, they were eliminated in 6 games last year and 5 games this year, so they've only had 5 "bonus" home games outside of the first round in the last 2 years. Those games help fill the war chest for future years, but I'm not so sure that it would be enough to cause them to start spending more towards the ceiling than the floor.

The cap number I used was with 12 players on the roster. So they only need 11 players. They also have 7 players they could sign for likely for around $1.5M on average, not including any cheap UFAs from other teams.

My point was that you're not going to hurt them by trying to make them pay Weber a little more than they're hoping. Maybe it would hurt a little if you make them overpay a lot (like an offer sheet for 10+), but then you risk that backfiring, overpaying him yourself as well as giving up four 1st-rounders.

There is absolutely nothing about the Weber situation right now that suggests an offer sheet would do anything good for us. Honestly, the best thing we could do is try to get him to sign a one year offer for cheap so they're sure to match. That would at least put him one step closer to UFA next summer. But if he wants out of Nashville, he'll do a one year anyway, so...

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You're absolutely correct. Why give up 4 picks for one difference maker when we can get 4 Quincey's?

1 year is a different beast than throwing away 4 years. Not sure what to think about that deal to be honest. Not every player is a Quincey.

Would be very surprised to see Holland trade away another 1st rounder.

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You're absolutely correct. Why give up 4 picks for one difference maker when we can get 4 Quincey's?

Wow, you know what? Put in that perspective, four 1st rounders doesn't sound too bad... I still think it isn't worth it, but if Holland thinks Quincey is worth ONE first round pick, would he hold Weber to that same standard and if he did, then one would think Holland would gladly trade FOUR first round picks for arguably the best defenseman in the league right now...

Honestly, this question goes out to everyone:

Would you be MAD at Holland if he DID sign Weber to an offer sheet of 10 yrs $100M?

Using Quincey as an example, which I don't think is worth a 1st round pick, but if Holland does, he knows more than I, I would assume Weber would be regarded as worth 4, so I wouldn't be as mad as I once thought I would be...I am sure if this did happen, most of us would be jumping out of our seats, since the draft is a crap shoot and Holland trades that 1st more times than not...besides, then if Nashville matches they are stuck paying him $10M for however many years...

Now this is a strange scenario, but what if Holland has that in his mind...

I am not going to get my hopes up for ANYONE to sign, when I do that, I usually wind up disappointed, mad and blow a gasket or two...but really with $70.3M and $26M in Cap space, what better way to start re-tooling than spending $16M-$18M on Weber and Suter... I don't think it'll happen but if there is anyone that Suter will want to play somewhere with if he leaves, it sure would be Shea Weber...Suter may even sign for a smaller, front loaded, cap hit, maybe this is why Lidstrom retired, maybe this was Hollands grand scheme, maybe it's already done (behind the scenes) maybe Holland was referring to Weber when he said he would trade for rights if he has to... I love the off season, we usually have about $1M in cap space, with $26M the sky is the limit! That being said, I am not saying this WILL happen, but it could very well and Holland has to make a huge splash to keep this team competitive and I am sure he has Iltich's blessing to spend up to the Cap if he has to the get more Cups here...

...que the blueadams capgeek roster in 3...2...1... :P

(I am not a math specialist, but what would a 10 year contract look like for Parise and Suter paying them $7M-$9M per season for the first 5-6 years then go down to $1M in the last season or two in order to keep the Cap Hit around $5M-$6M? Same with Abby and Helm, front loaded 10 year contracts so that the Hit stays around $1.5M for Helm and $1.2M for Abby, but paying them big bucks up front)

Edited by LeftWinger

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Actually I have thought about this scenario and I responded to another poster about it yesterday. Even if Weber is traded in the summer, during the season, or at the trade deadline, it does not mean he will sign a contract extension with that team. Essentially they would have him until next July 1st. Maybe he is traded to a team and he likes it there and does sign a new contract. Nashville is clinging to the faint hope they can keep both Suter and Weber because with those 2 players gone, their team basically becomes irrelevant. It's basically Pekka Rinne and everyone else. Poile has offered both these players numerous contract proposals and has been consistently shot down for 2 years now. He keeps upping the ante and it simply does not matter. They both want out of Nashville.

As for Roy, the Avs were there before he got there. Roy was the missing piece of their puzzle that's for sure. He put them over the top much like Shanahan put the Wings over the top in 96-97. Poile has been in denial for too long now. He should have read the tea leaves and known neither Weber or Suter wanted to stay in Nashville long term and traded them to get maximum value for them. Now he will get nothing for Suter unless he trades his rights before July 1st. Which is a far cry for what he could have received for him last summer, during the season or at the deadline. He made a choice. He went all in for this season and tried to win a Cup so he could convince both Suter and Weber to sign long term deals to stay in Nashville. He brought back Radulov and overpaid for Gaustad and also brought in Kostitsyn. He traded for Hal Gill. His gamble failed and now he has to live with the consequences. He SHOULD trade Weber this summer but I don't think he will. Poile seems to be in as much denial as Lou Lam is in NJ. He will end up getting no value in return for Parise who will be gone on July 1st. GMs can be their own worst enemy. Denial makes good GMs dumb sometimes.

Wow... excellent perspective... I couldn't have said it better!

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

I would be mad in the sense that it would be taking a potential UFA #1 franchise dman off the market. Why? Because Nashville would just match the contract and Detroit would have negotiated it for them. If Weber is a UFA and Kenny signed him to that deal then I would be happy. First of all it isn't my money paying Weber that big contract. Secondly, from a pure hockey standpoint, it improves our team in a big way. Franchise #1 dmen are very hard to come by and teams who have them don't usually let them go. When they do they are stupid (eg. Isles and Sens with Chara). Weber is just entering his prime years and will likely be a dominant dman for the next decade. As a RFA, Weber IS worth giving up the draft picks for. Who knows if those 4 players would be Quincey's or Datsyuk's. You don't know. The draft is still a crapshoot really. It's hard to believe you would find a player of Weber's ability with any of those 4 picks. However as long as Nashville can match any offer sheet, I want no part of signing Weber. I would rather just wait until next July 1st, keep my draft picks and sign him for straight cash and cap space. This is what I see Kenny doing.

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What does everyone think it would take to get Douglas Murray from San Jose via trade? And would you want him if he could be had at the price you suggest is fair? ESPN is speculating that he will be the odd man out of San Jose's top four once they sign Brad Stuart. Your thoughts?

http://insider.espn....features/rumors

Edited by kipwinger

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What does everyone think it would take to get Douglas Murray from San Jose via trade? And would you want him if he could be had at the price you suggest is fair? ESPN is speculating that he will be the odd man out of San Jose's top four once they sign Brad Stuart. Your thoughts?

http://insider.espn....features/rumors

I think Douglass Murray would be great here! I don't know what it would take to trade for him, might be too pricey, but he would be a great pickup, especially if for some reason we cannot get Suter...

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