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kipwinger

Buck Wild?

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Wings need a top 6 fw and a #1 d. Semin and Yandle and they stand a chance next year.

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And that's another thing. Holland needs to understand the press and excitement that come with signing new players. He's given us NOTHING to be excited about.

I can't wait to see next season's Red Wings commercial.

"The 2012 Detroit Red Wings.......we got Tootoo!!!".

Wait, so you're advocating Holland mortgages the team's future to provide short term buzz? No thanks.

Realistically, what kind of a team can Holland ice these days that will get fans excited? We've been fortunate enough to ice some of the best players to ever grace the NHL, and there was never anywhere to go but down eventually. For those of you fortunate enough to have never seen the Wings struggle before, this is the beginning of a very hard reality. Sorry. We're here for you.

Not to say that the Wings are going to be cellar dwellers, but our lofty expectations are going to come down a notch or two. I'm still extremely grateful for the last 20 years and thrilled I got to see it. Can't wait to see it again!

Leave it to Vladdy to inject the forums with some realism. Agreed 100% man.

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I also do not understand that. He would be a solid second line center on half (if not more) NHL teams.

It's probably just people feeling like he has peaked and this would be a good time to trade him because you would get the maximum in return. I can understand why some people feel that way. Still, I'd rather have Flip here.

Filppula almost guarantees Selanne returns for another year, he has said for awhile now he wants to play with Flip. Filppula is both our trump card and the key to this trade...I too would rather trade Franzine before Flip....or niether at all and just give them five 13th forwards for Ryan, but it doesn't work that way...

Then he should sign with us. :lol:

Agreed. I really like Ryan Suter, but he also benefitted greatly from the free agent class he was a part of. I'm not sure he is worth that type of money either, but when factoring in the current climate in the NHL and the Red Wings absolute need for a top d-man, it was ultimately a price that at least they attempted to pay. If Suter comes to Detroit, this entire off-season takes a completely different feel when you combine it with the moves Holland had already made. Unfortunately it didn't go in the Red Wings favor and with Lidstrom/Stuart leaving too, not getting Suter feels like a major deflator.

Yea, what can you do. It's just the way the NHL has gotten to be. These long term contracts are ruining the league. Maybe another lockout is looming?

I don't think it's so much that you've added anything, but rather that you've changed. It certainly doesn't work in every case, but if you repeatedly try the same thing and it doesn't work, then there's really no point in sticking with it. Years ago, the Wings traded a first round pick, the best power forward they had, and a sure fire Hall of Famer for Brendan Shanahan, not because they were getting the best player in the world, but because they were getting a quality (and different) look after years of trying the same things without success. I think that the team is in a similar situation now. Obviously, the talent we have now is good. I'd love to keep Flip or Franzen or Cleary or Bert or whomever, if possible. But we keep trying that same lineup, and we keep getting the same results. Maybe we don't have to constantly upgrade, maybe a lateral move (just for the sake of change) is what we really need. I'm obviously not an NHL general manager, but there's a point where you have to admit that the status quo is just not working anymore. Perhaps that time is now.

I agree with everything you said. And if that ends up happening I'm sure the Wings will benefit in some way. But it is a gamble, and even Holland can't win them all. But you're definitely right about something needing to change. Otherwise we're looking at another 100pt season and a 1st/2nd round exit. I just wish it was a signing (Doan, Semin?) rather than a trade.

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I'd rather have Ryan here than Filppula and Selanne...why? Cost...

Ryan is signed for 3 more years at $5.1M...Flip is UFA next July and will get $5M+ somewhere if not here...Ryan at $5.1M is far better than Flip at $5M+. I like Flip a ton! But if he is the key in getting Ryan....DO IT! Kenny.....Get it DONE!

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all the naysayers on here are ending our season already? Holland isn't done... Doan is still there, there was just a report that Holland is in the hunt of Bobby Ryan, so it's not like we have sunk to the deepest depths of the Central division. I would say if Holland got Ryan, Doan and Kubina, other than Suter being better than most of our D, and honestly, I would put Kronwall right up there with him...Kronner had 37 points being on the 2nd pairing, Suter had 46 points on the 1st pairing...when it comes to hitting, Kronwall eats him up all day. I would give Suter the nod defensively, but other than that, pretty equal...except when it comes to pay...

Parise actually had better centers in NJ. Koivu is really good, but there is only room for one leftwing on his line and Heatley will start bitching if he gets bumped off of it...he is the f***in allstar you know...

It's not like I am saying they aren't any better, of course these two makes them tons better, but I think Parise scores less in Minny than he did in NJ...I could be wrong, but we will see. I am more afraid of the Blues (:puke: oh....excuse me that just snuck up on me) than I am of the Wild... They are not in the central so we won't see them as much as I'd like, but no, I am not afraid. As long as Holland isn't done. Ryan, Doan, Kubina and I think Holland is ready to roll...

FORWARDS

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)

Shane Doan ($5.750m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)

Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.000m)

Kyle Quincey ($3.550m) / Ian White ($2.875m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,383,712; BONUSES: $462,500

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,816,288

It's not as pretty as having Parise and Suter on there, but it's still a very VERY good roster...

Well the list of times you have been right is certainly not long or distinguished, especially when it comes to the Wild lol

But let me ask you this? What if Holland gets nobody? What if Doan and Ryan don't end up in Detroit? What if he only signs mediocre bottom line/bottom pairing type players? That roster would look pretty pathetic if you ask me with the only notable acquisition being that of Jordin Tootoo.

Or conversely, what if he DOES get Doan and trade for Ryan? You're getting a guy who is turning 36 soon and who hasn't topped 60 points since 2008. He's a leader, sure. But not the answer offensively. Ryan would be a considerably better option. He's pretty much a lock for 30 goals and 60-75 points. That would really help, no doubt, but what are you going to have to give up to get him? Letting go of Bobby Ryan would blow a hole through Anaheim's already abysmal roster and they won't give him away. They hold all the cards on him. He still has a few years left on his deal so if the Ducks don't like the packages they are offered for him then they can just hold on to him and he can either play or rot on the bench if he refuses. Point is, the Ducks are going to need A LOT in return. 2 NHL players, 2 prospects and a pick will likely be the demand. At least something like that. So the Red Wings would need to give up probably Filpula and Abdelkader along with a couple of top prospects. The Ducks just lost Schultz to Edm. so they would probably need Smith to be included and then they would also ask for either Nyquist, or any two of Tatar, Jarkrok, Jurco, or Pulkkinen. Plus a high pick, probably a second rounder.

Obviously that is a lot but you can bet your ass that Anaheim won't do any deal for Ryan where they don't make out like bandits because, like I said, they hold all the cards and are in a sort of rebuild. I fail to see how a deal anything like what I mentioned would benefit the Red Wings.

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I fail to see how a deal anything like what I mentioned would benefit the Red Wings.

You'd prefer that there be nothing anywhere that could benefit the Red Wings. You have made this clear.

Edited by Crymson

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They do have some really nice young talent in Granlund and Brodin so if they can keep developing their prospect they might be really dangerous in a couple of years.

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Wait, so you're advocating Holland mortgages the team's future to provide short term buzz? No thanks.

That's exactly what he's advocating. He advocates it at every single trade deadline, too.

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Honestly yes...Thier team is at it's best point right now...They have most of their lineup from last year and have added the bobsie twins...their window is in the first three years to win a Cup...they have to re-sign Backstrom after the season, Clutterbuck too. Heatley and Gucchi will be in the last year of their contracts and will be looking for hefty raises. Cullen and Bouchard are also due up next July...their team can get way worse in three - four years. I think if they don't win a Cup within 3 years, then team will be in anther rebuild session in 5 years (especially considering the way ownership gives up on young players too soon) and that is when I believe Suter gets divorced and unfriends Parise from facebook because he will blame his wife's family and Parise for his stupid mistake...Parise will hang in there, because he doesn't care to win...if he did he'd be in Pittsburgh right now...

Heatley is making $7.5M the next two seasons. He's turning 32 and has consistently declined in points since his first year with the Sharks. No way should he be getting a raise. Either way they'll have prospects they'll have to pay and pretty much screwed themselves out of signing any other quality players

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They do have some really nice young talent in Granlund and Brodin so if they can keep developing their prospect they might be really dangerous in a couple of years.

I cannot wait until they all become UFAs and they cannot afford to sign them.

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I cannot wait until they all become UFAs and they cannot afford to sign them.

$19Million coming off the books next year. $36Million in cap space the following year and $54Million the year after that. Even if Heatley is resigned, which is a big if, it'll be at a discounted price. There's no way he's going to be making more than Parise and Suter. If he wants to stay, he'll need to take a big discount. The prospects' contracts are going to be staggered. They only start one the player has over 9 NHL games under his belt. 2 or 3 prospects might make the roster this fall. 3 or 4 the following year and the last few the year after that. They are going to be RFA's in separate years, which is going to make it really easy for Chuck to resign them. There will be plenty of space to resign all the prospects after their entry level deals are done. No worries at all.

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They'll, without a doubt, be strong competitors. But you're right, I don't exactly see them as runaway contenders at this point. There are still too many holes both at forward and at defense. When you look at some of the prospects in the system though, there's potential for a bright future there. Just not this year.

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$19Million coming off the books next year. $36Million in cap space the following year and $54Million the year after that. Even if Heatley is resigned, which is a big if, it'll be at a discounted price. There's no way he's going to be making more than Parise and Suter. If he wants to stay, he'll need to take a big discount. The prospects' contracts are going to be staggered. They only start one the player has over 9 NHL games under his belt. 2 or 3 prospects might make the roster this fall. 3 or 4 the following year and the last few the year after that. They are going to be RFA's in separate years, which is going to make it really easy for Chuck to resign them. There will be plenty of space to resign all the prospects after their entry level deals are done. No worries at all.

Then they can sign enough good dmen to have a proper top 4 and not pay Gilbert $4mil? Don't forget, Backstrom also makes $6mil and Koivu over $6mil and they're not gonna take the pay cut that Heatley will have to take to remain with the team. The bottom 6 depts is not that great and they have 3 good dmen now that Suter's there. As good as the prospect pool is, they have to wait a couple years to get them in there because of all the plugs that are signed. And Setoguchi will probably ask for a raise too when his contract is up.

Either way you look at it, i don't believe that the Wild will have a line-up solid enough top to bottom to make it even to the WCF.

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I have lived in Minnesota for the last 9 years and actually have followed the Wild as a "2nd team", so I've seen and followed more of this team than most. This fan base is very knowledgeable about the sport of hockey, but extremely delusional and under-informed about the NHL (in my opinion). Jacque Lemaire and Doug Risebrough (former GM) did this fan base a great disservice by ushering in a boring trap style of hockey for years, which was especially ill-equipped to deal with the post-lockout style of play.

If the question is whether this Wild team scares me, the answer is "no", at least not any more than any other playoff contender in the West. After being the hottest team in the NHL through December, this team was TERRIBLE for the rest of the year. And they didn't even have a sufficient excuse. They entered last season with the lowest payroll on defense in the league ($14 million, IIRC) and they are still young, undersized, and lacking depth. They swapped Schultz for Gilbert, but neither of those guys are legitimate Top 2 defensemen. Suter obviously gives them a centerpiece, but keep in mind that virtually everything he did was with the assistance of Shea Weber playing next to him. Defensemen, like goaltenders, are extremely vulnerable to their situation, and while Suter is very good (and I wanted him on the Wings), I don't think he's a Pronger or Chara-like building block that can completely turn around a defense. We'll see.

The Wild are now up against the cap and have the most expensive forward corps in the NHL. That's unbelievable to me. The problem is that there are some pretty bad long-term contracts in there (Koivu $6.7 mil, Heatley $7.5 mil, PMB $4 mil). Heck, even $3 or $3.5 mil for Setoguchi and Cullen is a bit much for what you get. They get some more of those deals off the books next offseason, and Mikael Granlund is expected to be star quickly, but we haven't SEEN any of these young guys produce in the NHL yet.

I think you could fairly say that the Minnesota Wild are "better positioned for the future" than the Detroit Red Wings right now. But keep in mind that the Minnesota Wild have done nothing BUT position themselves for the future since Fletcher took over as GM, since they have failed to put a winning team on the ice during that time.

I think they could potentially be a team with a lot of firepower, but until they've established some kind (any kind) of track record, I wouldn't bet them against Detroit. Their defense is still garbage. Even with Suter, I don't think I would trade their unit for ours, and Detroit has obvious problems in that department.

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Then they can sign enough good dmen to have a proper top 4 and not pay Gilbert $4mil? Don't forget, Backstrom also makes $6mil and Koivu over $6mil and they're not gonna take the pay cut that Heatley will have to take to remain with the team. The bottom 6 depts is not that great and they have 3 good dmen now that Suter's there. As good as the prospect pool is, they have to wait a couple years to get them in there because of all the plugs that are signed. And Setoguchi will probably ask for a raise too when his contract is up.

Either way you look at it, i don't believe that the Wild will have a line-up solid enough top to bottom to make it even to the WCF.

This is a good point. This organization has made some terrible decisions not just in the draft and in their long-term deals, but also in the ticky-tack 3rd and 4th liners they sign to these multi-year deals, at the expense of using organization guys for less money and less commitment. It's not that guys like Kyle Brodziak and Torrey Mitchell are bad players. They might even help the Wild improve this year. The point is that they aren't appreciably better than the young players or other veterans you could have used for $1.5 million or less. And I'm sorry, but just because you pay guys like Heatley and Koivu superstar money does not mean they are superstars.

They need to hand this team over to Parise now and continue the rebuild with this new talent. I agree that paying (and playing) guys like Mitchell and Konopka is counter productive when this team should be focusing on developing Granlund, Coyle, Phillips, Palmieri and a bunch of other guys before it comes time for THEIR big pay day.

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Sure we have a weak D on paper as it stands. But they might just pleasantly surprise us. Look at 2007-08 and 2008-09:

07-08 we had 257GF and 184GA, won SC.

08-09 we had 295GF and 244GA, lost in SCF.

The point is that in 09 we had Lidstrom and Stuart, and some of the other guys we have now but our D still sucked. And we still almost won the cup (BS imo).

Hard to believe we won it in 07-08 when our O sucked

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The Wild are now up against the cap and have the most expensive forward corps in the NHL. That's unbelievable to me. The problem is that there are some pretty bad long-term contracts in there (Koivu $6.7 mil, Heatley $7.5 mil, PMB $4 mil).

Heatley and PMB are overpaid. Koivu on the other hand is worth the money.

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We should trade for their prospect Brodin, he is EXACTLLY what we need...

Edited by Ekmanc

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