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kipwinger

Buck Wild?

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Faith in what? I still love the team, but they won one playoff game and got noticeably worse since then.

You (not you directly; the front office more) cannot rely on the past success of the team to continue forward just because of their amazing run. Let's be honest -- the Red Wings have been a stale group since 2009 now and with three early playoff exits, fans need a new reason to feel excited beyond everything the organization has done for two decades.

I totally agree about not relying on past success and also about the Wings being a stale group since that SCF loss. In fact, ever since, the way the Wings play hockey has been stale. It almost feels like the other teams have figured us out. And it makes you wonder how the St. Louis Blues can come out of nowhere and almost win the Presidents' Trophy. Even more so, how does an 8th seeded team win the whole thing! (Parity, I know, I know.)

All I'm saying is that making a signing or two would make us better (and excite the fan base) but it doesn't guarantee success. And this team is still a good team. Like Holland said; Any team with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall, Howard and Helm on it is a good team.

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Repeat after me. Red Wings have 17 million dollars in cap space.

That is all.

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I totally agree about not relying on past success and also about the Wings being a stale group since that SCF loss. In fact, ever since, the way the Wings play hockey has been stale. It almost feels like the other teams have figured us out. And it makes you wonder how the St. Louis Blues can come out of nowhere and almost win the Presidents' Trophy. Even more so, how does an 8th seeded team win the whole thing! (Parity, I know, I know.)

All I'm saying is that making a signing or two would make us better (and excite the fan base) but it doesn't guarantee success. And this team is still a good team. Like Holland said; Any team with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall, Howard and Helm on it is a good team.

Great point. Definitely agree with you in the second paragraph too. There are still some very good pieces on this Red Wings team. I'm cautiously optimistic that some moves will still be made to complement those players and maybe push the Red Wings back closer to contending.

Some new blood and continuing that winning tradition will energize the fans again.

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I would have to agree with the OP...

The Wild is a team that hasn't made the playoffs for 4 years and finished under .500 last season..

Sorry, but these two players are not going to turn this team into stanley Cup champions. They MIGHT make the playoffs, but they won't go deep...

Edited by Datsyukian_Deke_13

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Great point. Definitely agree with you in the second paragraph too. There are still some very good pieces on this Red Wings team. I'm cautiously optimistic that some moves will still be made to complement those players and maybe push the Red Wings back closer to contending.

Some new blood and continuing that winning tradition will energize the fans again.

Yea see that's another thing. "Continuing the winning tradition." Ever since the lock-out this team has been cautious in making big changes to the roster. Signing Suter would've been awesome at the right price and term length. And I guess it would've been great if he was signed for 13 years and $90m like Kenny offered. But only because we are desperate for D-men, not because Suter is that good. IMO, these new contracts are getting way out of hand. How the hell does Parise deserve $12m this season while Jimmy Howard gets only $2.25m? It's outrageous.

As far as trading for Ryan or Yandle, or even Nash...

I think it would be great if we had these guys on our team because we have the cap space. But if you trade Franzen and Filppula and some youth/picks for Ryan or Nash, what have you really added? Same goes for adding Yandle.

Edit: Btw, isn't it time you changed your avatar? :tounge:

Edited by atodaso

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They have one good defenseman (and one or two borderline ones). Their goalie is middle of the road. These days, that could be good or bad. And their offense looks good on paper but wound up scoring the least in the league last year. They added Parise but I don't see one player transforming their lackluster offense. Specifically, they will have one very good (on paper) top line, a decent second line, and nothing under that.

They might make playoffs, but won't make any noise if they get in. Maybe 5 years from now they might have a one and done hot season, but no. They're just a middle of the road team.

this is the same thing i was telling my buddy at work. they still crap depth. beyond a top line of Parise-Koivu-Heatley

they have Granlund-Bouchard-Setoguchi. A rookie who hasn't played in the NHL yet making 2.1 mil, a centre who i'd be pretty choked if he was the Wings 2nd line C, and Dive-on-gooch....nuff said. Their 3rd and 4th lines consist of plugs. Their D now has Suter and Scandella followed by a way overpaid Tom Gilbert at 4mil per. the cherry on top is Backstrom at 6mil per. They will ultimately lose half of their prospects the same way Chicago lost theirs after what someone earlier mentioned as a one and done, but Chicago had way more depth when they won the cup that i just don't see the Wild having with 5 guys making over 6mil per year.

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all the naysayers on here are ending our season already? Holland isn't done... Doan is still there, there was just a report that Holland is in the hunt of Bobby Ryan, so it's not like we have sunk to the deepest depths of the Central division. I would say if Holland got Ryan, Doan and Kubina, other than Suter being better than most of our D, and honestly, I would put Kronwall right up there with him...Kronner had 37 points being on the 2nd pairing, Suter had 46 points on the 1st pairing...when it comes to hitting, Kronwall eats him up all day. I would give Suter the nod defensively, but other than that, pretty equal...except when it comes to pay...

Parise actually had better centers in NJ. Koivu is really good, but there is only room for one leftwing on his line and Heatley will start bitching if he gets bumped off of it...he is the f***in allstar you know...

It's not like I am saying they aren't any better, of course these two makes them tons better, but I think Parise scores less in Minny than he did in NJ...I could be wrong, but we will see. I am more afraid of the Blues (:puke: oh....excuse me that just snuck up on me) than I am of the Wild... They are not in the central so we won't see them as much as I'd like, but no, I am not afraid. As long as Holland isn't done. Ryan, Doan, Kubina and I think Holland is ready to roll...

FORWARDS

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)

Shane Doan ($5.750m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)

Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.000m)

Kyle Quincey ($3.550m) / Ian White ($2.875m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,383,712; BONUSES: $462,500

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,816,288

It's not as pretty as having Parise and Suter on there, but it's still a very VERY good roster...

CheliFan89, Frozen-Man and 55fan like this

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Elite or not, as it stands, they have a much stronger roster than us and I'm willing to guarantee that they finish ahead of us in the standings next season.

Way to early to say for our team. I would have to say they have a strong case to be contenders.

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I respectfully disagree. Suter and Parise make them better on paper, but I still think they will place 7 or 8 tops. I can see the Wings making 4-6 seed.

If they manage to win the division then they are at least 3rd. And the Wild should be able to compete for the NW division.

Wild forwards are as good if not better than Vancouver. Vancouver got better defense. Luongo apparently on the way out but regardless Wild and Canucks got comparable goaltending.

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I'll take that bet. They were last in the league in "goals for". So, unless Zach Parise scores 40 goals and 100 pts. (which he's never done in his career), they haven't really improved that much. Suter helps the defense, which was middle of the road at best.

Maybe not 100 points but in 09 he came damn close: 45 goals, and 49 assists for 94 points.

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FORWARDS

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)

Shane Doan ($5.750m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)

Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.000m)

Kyle Quincey ($3.550m) / Ian White ($2.875m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

So, we are gonna land Bobby Ryan and still somehow hang on to Franzen, Nyquist, Brunner, Helm, Abdelkader, Quincey and Smith? Even if they wanted to trade Ryan for Filppula, Cleary and Kindl, I wouldn't be too crazy about that deal. I don't know why everyone is s***ting on Flip. The guy had a career year (finally). He's only going to get better. I'd rather trade Franzen for Ryan (more because of the length of Franzen's contract than any thing else).

Also, I think Doan would be one hell of an addition but $5.75m? I know he could probably get that from a dozen teams in today's market but that would be an overpayment imo. The guy is 36 after all. Unless we're talking one year deal?

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this is the same thing i was telling my buddy at work. they still crap depth. beyond a top line of Parise-Koivu-Heatley

they have Granlund-Bouchard-Setoguchi. A rookie who hasn't played in the NHL yet making 2.1 mil, a centre who i'd be pretty choked if he was the Wings 2nd line C, and Dive-on-gooch....nuff said. Their 3rd and 4th lines consist of plugs. Their D now has Suter and Scandella followed by a way overpaid Tom Gilbert at 4mil per. the cherry on top is Backstrom at 6mil per. They will ultimately lose half of their prospects the same way Chicago lost theirs after what someone earlier mentioned as a one and done, but Chicago had way more depth when they won the cup that i just don't see the Wild having with 5 guys making over 6mil per year.

I do see Wild playing quite a bit. So I would offer few comments on Wild players. Koivu is a very good center. Bouchard is injury-prone, but when he is playing he is good enough to be second line center. Very few team are lucky to have Dats-Z or Crosby-Malkin as their top centers. And are you really saying that there is much difference in quality of bottom 6 plugs between Red Wings and Wild (Cleary, Helm, Tootoo, Eaves, Nyquist, Miller vs Cullen, Brodziak, Mitchell, Clutterbuck, Powe, Konopka)?

I haven't seen Gilbert enough to tell how good he is. Otherwise Jared Spurgeon is Wild's best d-man after Suter.

Backstorm got one year left. He will not be paid 6M by Wild if he stays.

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I don't know why everyone is s***ting on Flip.

I also do not understand that. He would be a solid second line center on half (if not more) NHL teams.

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My question is, will Suter and Parise have the patience to stick with this team if they go through 2 or 3 unsuccessful seasons? And by unsuccessful I mean anywhere from not making the playoffs to not making the Cup Finals. It's hard for me to imagine both of them staying with Minnesota for more than 5 seasons, let alone for the duration of their contracts.

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I also do not understand that. He would be a solid second line center on half (if not more) NHL teams.

Ok, you said it "HE WOULD BE A SOLID SECOND CENTER..." that is what Anaheim wants in return...nobody is s***ting on Filppula. But you are not going to get Bobby Ryan for our 13-16th forwards in trade...geez!

Anaheim wold not take Franzine from us...they want Filppula. Filppula almost guarantees Selanne returns for another year, he has said for awhile now he wants to play with Flip. Filppula is both our trump card and the key to this trade...I too would rather trade Franzine before Flip....or niether at all and just give them five 13th forwards for Ryan, but it doesn't work that way...

Filppulla/Mursak/Tatar/Draft Pick should get it done. Great 2nd line center and two NHL ready prospects...we will not miss those two guys...first of all we'd have Bobby frickin Ryan and our stable is still full of younsters:

Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Frk, Sheahan, Sproul, Tvrdon, Athanasiou, Bodin, McKee...the future will be fine!

Drake_Marcus and CheliFan89 like this

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While I was ideally trying to turn this thread into something other than a "What's Next for Holland" discussion, I'm pleased that I've finally started a thread that has actually held a discussion for more than a page.

Self high five *******!!!!!!!

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My question is, will Suter and Parise have the patience to stick with this team if they go through 2 or 3 unsuccessful seasons? And by unsuccessful I mean anywhere from not making the playoffs to not making the Cup Finals. It's hard for me to imagine both of them staying with Minnesota for more than 5 seasons, let alone for the duration of their contracts.

Honestly yes...Thier team is at it's best point right now...They have most of their lineup from last year and have added the bobsie twins...their window is in the first three years to win a Cup...they have to re-sign Backstrom after the season, Clutterbuck too. Heatley and Gucchi will be in the last year of their contracts and will be looking for hefty raises. Cullen and Bouchard are also due up next July...their team can get way worse in three - four years. I think if they don't win a Cup within 3 years, then team will be in anther rebuild session in 5 years (especially considering the way ownership gives up on young players too soon) and that is when I believe Suter gets divorced and unfriends Parise from facebook because he will blame his wife's family and Parise for his stupid mistake...Parise will hang in there, because he doesn't care to win...if he did he'd be in Pittsburgh right now...

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I personally think 2-3 years from now is when they'll be a contender, unless they screw up the development and retaining of their prospects. They need to get better defense and probably add a little more scoring depth. They have a pretty good situation but there are no guarantees for success. Lots of times when a team makes a big splash at the trade deadline or in the offseason they'll be hyped up as cup favorites, but it rarely works out so easily.

How will Suter react to being "the guy"? He's had a comfy position in Weber's shadow in front of Rinne. Parise will also be pressured to produce on a team in desperate need for scoring.

Lots of things can go wrong, and with those massive contracts come massive expectations and what if the first half of the season doesn't go so well for them? The fans could quickly turn on them.

Or they win 5 straight cups. Who knows.

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Realistically, what kind of a team can Holland ice these days that will get fans excited? We've been fortunate enough to ice some of the best players to ever grace the NHL, and there was never anywhere to go but down eventually. For those of you fortunate enough to have never seen the Wings struggle before, this is the beginning of a very hard reality. Sorry. We're here for you.

Not to say that the Wings are going to be cellar dwellers, but our lofty expectations are going to come down a notch or two. I'm still extremely grateful for the last 20 years and thrilled I got to see it. Can't wait to see it again!

Drake_Marcus likes this

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Yea see that's another thing. "Continuing the winning tradition." Ever since the lock-out this team has been cautious in making big changes to the roster. Signing Suter would've been awesome at the right price and term length. And I guess it would've been great if he was signed for 13 years and $90m like Kenny offered. But only because we are desperate for D-men, not because Suter is that good. IMO, these new contracts are getting way out of hand. How the hell does Parise deserve $12m this season while Jimmy Howard gets only $2.25m? It's outrageous.

As far as trading for Ryan or Yandle, or even Nash...

I think it would be great if we had these guys on our team because we have the cap space. But if you trade Franzen and Filppula and some youth/picks for Ryan or Nash, what have you really added? Same goes for adding Yandle.

Edit: Btw, isn't it time you changed your avatar? :tounge:

Agreed. I really like Ryan Suter, but he also benefitted greatly from the free agent class he was a part of. I'm not sure he is worth that type of money either, but when factoring in the current climate in the NHL and the Red Wings absolute need for a top d-man, it was ultimately a price that at least they attempted to pay. If Suter comes to Detroit, this entire off-season takes a completely different feel when you combine it with the moves Holland had already made. Unfortunately it didn't go in the Red Wings favor and with Lidstrom/Stuart leaving too, not getting Suter feels like a major deflator.

:lol: Yes, the avatar definitely needs a change now. I'm still in a little denial that Suter isn't a Red Wing.

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$50 sounds fair. Question is, how much will you donate if I'm right?

I'm not the one who is making guarantees.

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Yea see that's another thing. "Continuing the winning tradition." Ever since the lock-out this team has been cautious in making big changes to the roster. Signing Suter would've been awesome at the right price and term length. And I guess it would've been great if he was signed for 13 years and $90m like Kenny offered. But only because we are desperate for D-men, not because Suter is that good. IMO, these new contracts are getting way out of hand. How the hell does Parise deserve $12m this season while Jimmy Howard gets only $2.25m? It's outrageous.

As far as trading for Ryan or Yandle, or even Nash...

I think it would be great if we had these guys on our team because we have the cap space. But if you trade Franzen and Filppula and some youth/picks for Ryan or Nash, what have you really added? Same goes for adding Yandle.

Edit: Btw, isn't it time you changed your avatar? :tounge:

I don't think it's so much that you've added anything, but rather that you've changed. It certainly doesn't work in every case, but if you repeatedly try the same thing and it doesn't work, then there's really no point in sticking with it. Years ago, the Wings traded a first round pick, the best power forward they had, and a sure fire Hall of Famer for Brendan Shanahan, not because they were getting the best player in the world, but because they were getting a quality (and different) look after years of trying the same things without success. I think that the team is in a similar situation now. Obviously, the talent we have now is good. I'd love to keep Flip or Franzen or Cleary or Bert or whomever, if possible. But we keep trying that same lineup, and we keep getting the same results. Maybe we don't have to constantly upgrade, maybe a lateral move (just for the sake of change) is what we really need. I'm obviously not an NHL general manager, but there's a point where you have to admit that the status quo is just not working anymore. Perhaps that time is now.

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You can't compete for real for the Cup when your defense looks like

Suter-Gilbert

Spurgeon-Scandella

Stoner-Falk/Kampfer

They'll be improved, but they are not cup contenders. And as down as everyone is right now, the Wings are still a better team then the Wild. As are, LAK, CHI, SJS, VAN, STL, and PHO(for now). So they'll be in a fight for 6-8th in my opinion.

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