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Guest Crymson

Flyers sign Weber to offer sheet: 14y/$110m ($56m 1st 4yrs)

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Guest Crymson

I wonder if they will be addressing these signing bonuses like this in the next cba. I do think if it's not addressed it's another tactic big market teams can use to sign players from smaller market teams. I wonder if the league will approve the contract.

It has been mentioned that the league wants the next CBA to eliminate signing bonuses and set a limit on contract length.

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Hold on a sec. Weber's definitely worth 4 Detroit 1st rounders if we're talking the past. BUT with Lidstrom gone and our superstars all getting older we can't assume the future will be paved in low 20's draft positions.

Well there is no way to know either way is there, but the argument is the same nonetheless. The draft is a lottery, but Weber is a sure thing.

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http://phlyinhigh.bl...-breakdown.html

First four seasons (2012-'13 through 2015-'16) $1 million per year w/ 13M signing bonus

- Next two seasons (2016-'17 through 2017-'18) $4 million per w/ 8M signing bonus

- Next four seasons (2018-'19 through 2021-'22) $6 million per

- Following year (2022-'23) $3 million per

- Last three seasons (2023-'24 through 2025-'26) $1 million per

This contract is odd, the signing bonus's i don't understand, why sign for 1 mill with a 13 mill bonus? Is there a reason for that?

The structure of the contract is to prevent Nashville from matching.

Signing bonuses have to be paid immediately, so as soon as they match they'd owe Weber 13 million, with another 1 million paid out over the course of the season. Then exactly 365 days from the time of the signing they'd owe him another 13 million. So in the first calendar year of the contract they would pay out 27 million dollars to Weber.

With the threat of a work stoppage looming, its a tough decision for a cash strapped franchise to commit 27 million in a year where they may not have any income. Then as others have mentioned, if the cap is lowered and salaries are rolled back Weber would still be owed all of his signing bonus money.

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Honestly...Holland was Asst. GM when the first Balls to the Wall move was made for Shanahan, that won us Cups...he showed his Balls by acquiring Chris Chelios...and when we were too old Holland made another Balls to the Wall move by getting Hasek, Hull & Robitaille that won us Cups....He needs another Balls to the Wall trade...Bobby Ryan. He needs to stop lowballing GM's and UFA's...player want to get paid, no longer do they take a discount to play in Detroit because it's Detroit...

Holland was one of 3 GM's when they traded for Shanahan FYI. Him Develanno and Bowman were all listed as interim GM's for that season, but I agree that was a pretty ballsy move, as was dealing for Hasek and Chelios. Did you ever wonder why the Wings got the better of every one of those trades? its by refusing to overpay in a trade, he's smart enough not to give up more than he's getting just for the sake of mixing things up on his team.

I think you're overreacting on the "lowballing" to use your term when it comes to FA's as well. He didn't low-ball Suter, he didn't submit the best offer, but there is a difference between being outbid and lowballing. (besides it didn't matter what he offered, Suter and Parise were going to Minnesota regardless, they used other franchises to drive the price up that's the only reason the Wings were even involved)

I know he had discussions with Weber but it sounds like Philly signed him to an offer sheet before the Wings even formally submitted one, so I don't think you can call that a lowball either.

I agree that Holland needs to make a move this off-season, but considering the amount of players we've been linked too, and the # of trade talks he's been involved in, I think its only a matter of time before a trade is announced. I too hope its for Ryan.

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Guest Crymson

The structure of the contract is to prevent Nashville from matching.

Signing bonuses have to be paid immediately, so as soon as they match they'd owe Weber 13 million, with another 1 million paid out over the course of the season. Then exactly 365 days from the time of the signing they'd owe him another 13 million. So in the first calendar year of the contract they would pay out 27 million dollars to Weber.

With the threat of a work stoppage looming, its a tough decision for a cash strapped franchise to commit 27 million in a year where they may not have any income. Then as others have mentioned, if the cap is lowered and salaries are rolled back Weber would still be owed all of his signing bonus money.

It's absolutely hilarious that the CBA, which is intended to encourage parity (and the creation of which necessitated a lockout!) allows this sort of predation by richer teams on those with less money.

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I agree that Weber is one of the top 3 at his position, but I don't necessarily think that justifies a max deal.

You said it yourself, it was a poison pill to prevent Nashville from matching. If they offered him his market value Nashville would definitely match.

You will never land a player via offer sheet without overpaying. I'm not saying Philly made a mistake, I'm just rejecting the notion that signing someone to an offer-sheet is somehow a more prudent strategy than overpaying via trade or signing. Its all overpaying, what difference does it make which way you do it?

By your definition all players are overpaid, and that might be true in some regard, but if the market is willing to support this contract it is market value. Many GM's around the league would happily match this offer if given a chance, if the Preds can or not is a matter of Financial means, not market value.

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Maybe

By your definition all players are overpaid, and that might be true in some regard, but if the market is willing to support this contract it is market value. Many GM's around the league would happily match this offer if given a chance, if the Preds can or not is a matter of Financial means, not market value.

Neither of us have any idea if other GM's would match this offer. I suspect the # that wouldn't is higher than those that would.

I don't think its his caphit that is the problem (its quite reasonable actually, I miscalculated his age at the end of his contract so his cap hit is under 8) Its the bonus money paid upfront that would cause a lot of GM's to balk.

My point is that signing someone to an offersheet is not a better or cheaper strategy than trading or signing someone as a UFC. its impossible to sign someone to an offer-sheet that won't be matched without overpaying in some form. Otherwise his former team will match every time.

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Maybe

Neither of us have any idea if other GM's would match this offer. I suspect the # that wouldn't is higher than those that would.

I don't think its his caphit that is the problem (its quite reasonable actually, I miscalculated his age at the end of his contract so his cap hit is under 8) Its the bonus money paid upfront that would cause a lot of GM's to balk.

My point is that signing someone to an offersheet is not a better or cheaper strategy than trading or signing someone as a UFC. its impossible to sign someone to an offer-sheet that won't be matched without overpaying in some form. Otherwise his former team will match every time.

Any GM looking for a franchise defenseman and with the financial means necessary would match this offer, I have no doubts. If by "overpaying" you mean pay more than someone else -then yes. It is like buying a house, if you buy it, this mean you have paid more than anybody else was willing to and thus by the same definition you would have "overpaid". So what I'm objecting to is really the word "overpaying", because on this board it seems to be losely tied to some imaginery figure in people's minds with no relation to the actual market. Naturally there's a premium to lure away talent like Weber, but in support of the market theory, history show that most offer sheets have been matched (the only exceptions being Gratton and Penner). In order to evaluate an asset (a house or a player) I think you must also consider what it is worth to you.

In conclusion, I agree it is not a cheaper strategy, but it could still prove to be worth it for a financially strong team. It is all about how you evaluate the talent.

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I would not want to give up 4 first rounders. The draft is the life blood of a hockey club. IF Nashville let's him walk it's their job to make the most of thoes picks. They could trade some of thoes picks as well. If they have drafted well in the past it will help them fill in the holes on their blue line. Although I must say thoes are some BIG shoes to fill. So I guess what I'm saying is I would not give up the draft picks.

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That is hockey Gods punishing Preds for beating the Red Wings in the first round.

I truly feel sorry for Preds watching their team being dismantled like that. The whole future of the team goes down the drain in a month. If Weber goes, Preds need to rebuilt.

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Any GM looking for a franchise defenseman and with the financial means necessary would match this offer, I have no doubts. If by "overpaying" you mean pay more than someone else -then yes. It is like buying a house, if you buy it, this mean you have paid more than anybody else was willing to and thus by the same definition you would have "overpaid". So what I'm objecting to is really the word "overpaying", because on this board it seems to be losely tied to some imaginery figure in people's minds with no relation to the actual market. Naturally there's a premium to lure away talent like Weber, but in support of the market theory, history show that most offer sheets have been matched (the only exceptions being Gratton and Penner). In order to evaluate an asset (a house or a player) I think you must also consider what it is worth to you.

In conclusion, I agree it is not a cheaper strategy, but it could still prove to be worth it for a financially strong team. It is all about how you evaluate the talent.

I agree... "overpaying" requires an initial value. For example if you go to a dollar store, or a Poundland over here, and pay $1.50 or £1.50 for something, you're overpaying as the product is worth a dollar/pound. To say a player is worth a certain amount (or as you mentioned a house) is entirely subjective. They're worth what you're willing to pay. Some will think Player A is worth $3m some will think $6.5m. They're worth what they get really.

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I'm not being disrespectful whatsoever. In fact I've shown nothing but respect on this board and in every encounter I've had with wings fans my entire life.

As for being stuck with a "sulky" defenseman, you'd give your left nut to have him so keep your tears off the board. I know it sucks missing out in him after you had such high hopes.

You were being disrespectful in the post I previously quoted. And you're very interested in telling other people what they would give their left nut for. You know what I'd give for Weber? Your left nut. I lost interest in him long ago. And that STILL doesn't mean he wants to be in Nashville, however you want to try and misdirect the attention.

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Save your cap geek garbage for somebody else. Your wrong on every level here. Poile will match and he will be a pred for a very long time. Deal with it

Cybulski & Co@Cybulskishow

Here is our interview with Shea Weber's agent Jarrett Bousquet - http://bit.ly/MocI6a

Did you not listen to Weber's agent and what he said? "everything changed July 4th" meaing when Suter left Weber knew it was time to move on and he said he weasn't going to go through another "rebuilding" phase. Translastion he wanted out.

As for the Capgeek link the number don't lie, granted it's all a numbers game, but at the end of the day Nashville will have a very hard time matching or trying to match the offer sheet. Your team isn't turning a profite on it's investment aka your franchise is losing money every year. Remember Jim Balsillie want to buy the Preds and move them to Hamilton, OT? If Weber signs with the Flyers all's you have is Rinne with a 7yr/$49M contract. You guys have lost Suter, Radulov, Tootoo, Kostitsyn and Bouillion and you haven't bothered to replace any of those players.

Polie keeps saying the Preds will match it and retain him...if that was the case Nashville would have already inked Weber to a deal. Since that hasn't happened now Nashville is in a huge bind and are looking to see IF they can pull off a match. At the end of the day Nashville has screwed this up and he signs with the Flyers.

These are the facts of the issue and this is the reality of it all.

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haha....at least the preds may win some faceoffs this year. boo-yah!

That's about all they're going to be winning... I hope Rinne is prepared to face 50 shots a game...

With all that said, I still think Nashville will ultimately match and keep Weber, there's too much to lose if they don't (and not just in the form of a player, but what it says to other FA, what it says about the market there, what it says about management/ownership and also, what it says about their commitment to winning)

The money will be damn near crippling to them, but they don't have a choice... especially with the new CBA coming up, they may get some reprieve from his contract, not much, as a lot of it will be protected, but SOME... they may even work in the ability to trade a player immediately after a match of an OS is made in the new CBA, so who knows...

Edited by stevkrause

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I truly feel sorry for Preds watching their team being dismantled like that. The whole future of the team goes down the drain in a month. If Weber goes, Preds need to rebuilt.

I agree, I was just thinking how bad does Rinne have to be feeling now.

With all that said, I still think Nashville will ultimately match and keep Weber, there's too much to lose if they don't (and not just in the form of a player, but what it says to other FA, what it says about the market there, what it says about management/ownership and also, what it says about their commitment to winning).

I think they probably will too but that is a lot of money and term to lock up in someone who obviously doesn't want to be there.

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Gaustad has got to be kicking himself for re-signing...

Ooooooh *wincy face immediately before a car crash*. Perhaps he should have let the other shoes drop before agreeing. I would have rather had him than Tootoo, but Gaustad made his bed...

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Am I the only one who actually feels bad for the Predators in all of this? They finally get a cup contending team and it's dismantled in a single offseason.This is a lose-lose situation for Nashville - they'll lose a lot of fans if they don't match the offer sheet, and they risk financial peril/locking up too much money in one player if they do match. Either way, this is a hard hit financially for Nashville.

How this contract is valid is beyond me. The entire purpose of the CBA and NHL salary cap was to allow small market teams to compete with the larger market teams. The way this deal is structured (being so heavily front-loaded) basically allows the large market teams to beat out the small market teams for any free agent they want to pursue. I'd be worried this could start a precedent, but they'll probably address it in the next CBA in the aftermath of this offseason.

Excellent post.

First, yes, I feel genuinely bad for the real Nashville fans. They may not be many in number, but it takes a lot more dedication to declare yourself a diehard hockey fan in a market like that compared to Detroit or Minnesota. The fans showed up in the Playoffs, they committed long-term to a star goaltender, and they absolutely cleaned our clocks. Now this happens...

In August of 2010, Arbitrator Richard Bloch overruled the Kovalchuk contract, even though it didn't seem too fundamentally different from several other contracts that had been signed recently. The primary offender in that agreement was the payment beyond retirement age (thru age 44), but it was also heavily front-loaded and obviously designed to circumvent the Salary Cap.

This Weber deal in the context of an RFA offer sheet really presents a whole new set of problems. In a situation where you have one strong financial team versus a vulnerable one (PHI vs. NAS), the stronger team can really exert extreme financial pressure on the weaker team with bonuses and front-loading. The question, however, is whether this is significantly different with "poison pill" clauses, and other tactics used to give one side an advantage within the rules.

This just feels illegal to me. I'm not sure it will be overturned, since I didn't really feel there was any precedent to overturn the Kovalchuk deal in the first place. But there are other issues with this deal that take it above and beyond, and the structuring of deals has to be something they look at in a new CBA.

Rinne has got to want out now

You feel for him a bit, too. However, it was the responsibility of him and his agent to recognize that neither Weber nor Suter were signed to long-term deals, and that an expensive long-term deal for Rinne would actually make it less likely that NAS could afford to retain one or both of them. Rinne also GREATLY benefited from cashing in during a time where he had two of the NHL's best young defensemen playing in front of him. If he was on a crap team posting a 2.50 GAA, there's no way he gets that kind of deal.

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