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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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either that or it's a stall tactic by fehr. neither one would surprise me

Strategically why would Fehr want to stall at this point in the negotiations? What advantage would that give the NHLPA?

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Strategically why would Fehr want to stall at this point in the negotiations? What advantage would that give the NHLPA?

i think he believes that the pa will be able to get a better offer from the nhl the longer this goes on

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i think he believes that the pa will be able to get a better offer from the nhl the longer this goes on

Based on what?

The prevailing opinion certainly isn't that the deal will get better for the players as the lockout drags on. It certainly didn't in 2005 when they lost a season and accepted a salary cap and had their wages tied to revenue.

The players have finite careers so they have to weigh the deal against the lost wages from the lockout. Conventional wisdom is the longer it drags on the more leverage it gives the owners. The NHL franchise is only one of their businesses, where for players it's the only way they can generate income.

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Tim Panaccio@tpanotchCSN

Bill Daly told me the NHL has not agreed to a mediator yet and has "no idea" why a mediator is needed "at this point in time."

It's worth noting, that while the owners came up to $300M for make whole, $50M of that is in pension, which comes from the players share. So the league really only came up to $250M.

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Based on what?

based on the fact that they still haven't accepted a new cba yet and it is appearing like they aren't going to accept the latest proposal by the owners either.

The prevailing opinion certainly isn't that the deal will get better for the players as the lockout drags on. It certainly didn't in 2005 when they lost a season and accepted a salary cap and had their wages tied to revenue.

The players have finite careers so they have to weigh the deal against the lost wages from the lockout. Conventional wisdom is the longer it drags on the more leverage it gives the owners. The NHL franchise is only one of their businesses, where for players it's the only way they can generate income.

i agree, which is why i think it's ridiculous that the players are now willing to risk losing a season over contracting issues that only affect a minority of players and 90 million dollar difference in make whole.

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based on the fact that they still haven't accepted a new cba yet and it is appearing like they aren't going to accept the latest proposal by the owners either.

i agree, which is why i think it's ridiculous that the players are now willing to risk losing a season over contracting issues that only affect a minority of players and 90 million dollar difference in make whole.

Your position seems to be that they NHLPA should accept whatever the league is offering right now. That's fine, but that has nothing to do with what Fehr actually thinks or what his strategy is.

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Your position seems to be that they NHLPA should accept whatever the league is offering right now. That's fine, but that has nothing to do with what Fehr actually thinks or what his strategy is.

I personally think its unreasonable that a skilled negotiator like Fehr feels that he should be getting a better deal, so he throws the "mediators" trump card out there in order to delay the negotiations. A skilled and good negotiatior would get in there and negotiate, not stall. If the NHL denies his request, then he can come out to the press and pontificate like he has done through this entire process. There is no excuse for either side in this debacle of a negotiation.

hillbillywingsfan likes this

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does anyone know if the topic of realignment is on the CBA's agenda? I was a bit excited with the new alignment and playoff format changing (not that it was perfect)

I haven't heard anything about the proposed realignment and I'd be willing to be it's not even being discussed right now given the fact that they have much bigger fish to fry.

Sidenote: I love the idea of realignment. I hated their proposal simply due to the fact that it gave the "Old Eastern" conference teams a better shot at making the playoffs given they had two less teams than the "Old Western" (no pun intended) conference. The best they can do right now is realign and keep the 6 divisions because you can't make it square with 4 unless you add or drop 2 teams (dropping two teams....also not a bad idea).

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That's fine, but that has nothing to do with what Fehr actually thinks or what his strategy is.

fehr wanting to bring in mediators is a perfect example of his stalling tactic. talks were progressing without the mediators, why bring them in now, especially since mediation was a complete failure last time.

bob mackenzie went on tsn radio earlier today and said that he was getting comments from the rank and file players telling him that they liked the deal on the table. just like the moderate owners did to bettman and jacobs, hopefully these players step up and force fehr's hand in this.

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Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika

Owners are furious with Fehr, yes. I think they also sense a number of players want to vote on what is on table.

Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika

My comment on a number of players wanting vote is not based on NHL sources, but players. Can't say I know ratio, though.

John Shannon@JSportsnet

The Negotiations are on again. Curious to note, NO Bettman on the NHL side.

Edited by chances14

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If Fehr thinks he can pull stunts like he had while he was the head of the MLB players union then he needs to get kicked to the curb, and let the players go on their own.

His ignorance of the BOG is what's gonna kill this season.

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Unreal. It’s the word of the day for me. As I write, it appears as if the NHL CBA talks are blowing up again. Owners are “furious” at Donald Fehr, one top industry source told me. The biggest reason? They think he’s stalling again by wanting to bring in mediators again to the talks. That, and a list of other grievances, including essentially “injecting” himself and what owners consider his giant ego into the middle of things just when the sides looked like they were getting along and closing in on a deal.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012/12/06/nhl-lockout-2012-ugly-including-radio-toronto/11978/

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fehr wanting to bring in mediators is a perfect example of his stalling tactic. talks were progressing without the mediators, why bring them in now, especially since mediation was a complete failure last time.

bob mackenzie went on tsn radio earlier today and said that he was getting comments from the rank and file players telling him that they liked the deal on the table. just like the moderate owners did to bettman and jacobs, hopefully these players step up and force fehr's hand in this.

According to McKenzie and several other people, after the first night of goodwill, things got heated and precarious. I honestly don't know why they'd bring in mediators since it didn't work last time, but I don't see why it's a stall tactic or why that would make any lick of sense as a strategy for the NHLPA. It could just as easily be a move to bring in a neutral third party to try and facilitate productive discussion when things get heated (futile as it may be).

They're so friggin close to a deal I hope this is the darkest before the dawn moment. If the majority of players really do want to take what's on the table then absolutely Fehr should listen. But it's probably more difficult to get a real sense with 700 players (I think that's the number I heard the NHLPA represents) than 30 owners.

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I personally think its unreasonable that a skilled negotiator like Fehr feels that he should be getting a better deal, so he throws the "mediators" trump card out there in order to delay the negotiations. A skilled and good negotiatior would get in there and negotiate, not stall. If the NHL denies his request, then he can come out to the press and pontificate like he has done through this entire process. There is no excuse for either side in this debacle of a negotiation.

I guess it's been a few pages since we've talked about not replying to each others posts so do I really have to say it yet again?

Especially since your reply contains several assumptions, there's no point in discussing your unsubstantiated version of events.

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Dreger:

PA made presentation today. Say time is now to make a deal. Say addressed league concerns.
PA very disappointed Bettman and owners didn't attend todays meeting. 16 players, Don and Steve Fehr represented PA.

Ward:

Told NHLPA tabled another proposal tonight.Moved in some areas in hopes that it is enough to keep negotiations going.
The NHLPA counter was based off of the NHL's offer from yesterday's negotiations.
NHLPA counter,players asking for 8 year term(year 6 option) on contracts and have agreed on significant money issue (Make Whole).

That part I bolded sounds promising.

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Fehr: Complete agreement on dollars

Season gotta be possible now

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Tweets are coming in quicker than I can read them, to summarize....

-Owners are pissed at Fehr and his 'tactics'. They believe he is stalling.

-Players are pissed Bettman and owners were not present when they tabled an offer based off of yesterday's NHL offer.

-Fehr says it appears they have an agreement on money, make whole and pension.

-Offer includes max contracts at 8 years with lowest year required to be at least 25% of highest year. CBA length proposed at 8 years with opt out options at year 6.

-Transition rules have yet to be discussed.

-Daly and Batterman left to present offer to owners and Bettman.

Pierre LeBrun@Real_ESPNLeBrun

When Fehr says he thinks there's agreement on total dollars, that includes accepting NHL's Make Whole offer he says

Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika

Don Fehr: We made the proposal. We were with people who were told they were designated to receive it and carry it back.

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i'm not getting my hopes up until i see the owner's reaction to the pa's latest proposal. we have seen this before where the devil is always in the details.

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Yep. It's hard not to get the emotions rolling though.

Pierre LeBrun@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Steve Fehr just whispered something in Ron Hainsey's ear...

Winging It In Motown@wingingitmotown

"Your fly is undone" RT @Real_ESPNLeBrun: Steve Fehr just whispered something in Ron Hainsey's ear...

I'm glad someone is around to provide comic relief.

Edited by rrasco

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I have SO much homework and studying to do, but this suspense is killing me. I have 5 websites open that will hopefully break the good news. Guys and gals, lets hope this is it.

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I have SO much homework and studying to do, but this suspense is killing me. I have 5 websites open that will hopefully break the good news. Guys and gals, lets hope this is it.

^^^ same here. week before finals... don't care, there's more important issues at hand

Edited by amato

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