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Motown4013

Has your opinion of kenny changed?

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saw this from HFB a few days ago, guess noone wanted to spread it but here's some kenny love:

http://espn.go.com/b...ost/_/id/20361?

"There are some incredibly smart GMs out there, guys like Ken Holland and Lou Lamoriello," said Whitney. "They’re not allowed to say anything but what the league is trying to do now is say, 'We don’t trust you GMs, we want to put in a system that tells you how to run your teams now. We’re going to cut your legs out. Kenny, I know you’ve got a genius mind when it comes to contracts and maneuvering things, but we’re not going to allow that anymore. We’re going to make it so the worst GM in the league can compete with you because your hands are tied.'"
Edited by evilzyme
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So you dont think Kenny did a good job?

Look, as far as GM's go I think Holland is one of the best, so I think he does a good job. However, you can't lose 3 of your top 4 defensemen in the course of two years and not bring somebody in. Obviously you can't replace Lidstrom, but you can replace Stuart and a very old and beat up Rafalski. Players were available, they weren't signed for one reason for another. I think that was a mistake. So to answer your question, yes I think he does a good job, but he didn't that time.

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Look, as far as GM's go I think Holland is one of the best, so I think he does a good job. However, you can't lose 3 of your top 4 defensemen in the course of two years and not bring somebody in. Obviously you can't replace Lidstrom, but you can replace Stuart and a very old and beat up Rafalski. Players were available, they weren't signed for one reason for another. I think that was a mistake. So to answer your question, yes I think he does a good job, but he didn't that time.

We traded a first rounder for Quincey(Size, speed, physical, and productive), brought in White(very underrated) for Rafalski albeit Raffy was amazing, he wasn't going to be the same player due to injuries and Ian White has been very very good for us. Quincey underperformed without a doubt, but he's only 27, on a good contract and has a track record of being a very productive scorer.

To put Quincey is perspective, as bad as he was last year he still put up the same numbers to Visnovsky, Eric Johnson, Corvo, Fowler, Bouwmeester, Zidlicky, and Hedman who are all top 4 defenseman at the very least.

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous, I don't see a trade that would have made this team better. If we landed Ryan Suter, we would have the best offensive defense in the league, and it wouldn't be close, right now we are below average defensively, and above average offensively. But that's just the current state, we have cap space, and assets to use. Not to mention a pretty young core with giant ceiling's in Quincey and Brendan Smith.

Look at Matt Carle's 5.5 million for 6 year deal. He's a solid two way player no doubt, but compared to Ian White he's the same age and signed for 2.75 million a year. Half the deal, and we got someone that's just as good .03 career PPG difference, Ian White is a better skater, and more physical even though Carle has a few inches. I just don't see how that contract and player would help the Wings in the long run.

Bryan Allen? Decent player, never much of an offensive guy, but I'd been ok with the signing. But instead we got Colaiacovo who is cheaper, younger, more offensive minded, takes much less penalties. I don't see how this would make or break our team.

I fail to see these numerous options Holland had that were no brainers, unless I missed Subban, Yandle, Enstrom etc. get traded for scraps.

Edited by Carman

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We traded a first rounder for Quincey(Size, speed, physical, and productive), brought in White(very underrated) for Rafalski albeit Raffy was amazing, he wasn't going to be the same player due to injuries and Ian White has been very very good for us. Quincey underperformed without a doubt, but he's only 27, on a good contract and has a track record of being a very productive scorer.

To put Quincey is perspective, as bad as he was last year he still put up the same numbers to Visnovsky, Eric Johnson, Corvo, Fowler, Bouwmeester, Zidlicky, and Hedman who are all top 4 defenseman at the very least.

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous, I don't see a trade that would have made this team better. If we landed Ryan Suter, we would have the best offensive defense in the league, and it wouldn't be close, right now we are below average defensively, and above average offensively. But that's just the current state, we have cap space, and assets to use. Not to mention a pretty young core with giant ceiling's in Quincey and Brendan Smith.

Look at Matt Carle's 5.5 million for 6 year deal. He's a solid two way player no doubt, but compared to Ian White he's the same age and signed for 2.75 million a year. Half the deal, and we got someone that's just as good .03 career PPG difference, Ian White is a better skater, and more physical even though Carle has a few inches. I just don't see how that contract and player would help the Wings in the long run.

Bryan Allen? Decent player, never much of an offensive guy, but I'd been ok with the signing. But instead we got Colaiacovo who is cheaper, younger, more offensive minded, takes much less penalties. I don't see how this would make or break our team.

I fail to see these numerous options Holland had that were no brainers, unless I missed Subban, Yandle, Enstrom etc. get traded for scraps.

Holland focused on rounding our team out with scrubs (quincey, bertuzzi, gustavsson, tootoo, and sammuelsson) for the same amount (11 mil per) that he could have paid Suter (9 mil per) and 4 prospects (.5 mil each). I would have ponied up for Suter and Parise. 9-10 mil per season each, 10 year deals. Dats and Z dont like it? Well, play good the next couple of years and we give those guys some golden parachutes too. Holland pussed out. We will feel it if the nhl ever gets going again.

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Holland focused on rounding our team out with scrubs (quincey, bertuzzi, gustavsson, tootoo, and sammuelsson) for the same amount (11 mil per) that he could have paid Suter (9 mil per) and 4 prospects (.5 mil each). I would have ponied up for Suter and Parise. 9-10 mil per season each, 10 year deals. Dats and Z dont like it? Well, play good the next couple of years and we give those guys some golden parachutes too. Holland pussed out. We will feel it if the nhl ever gets going again.

I'm pretty sure he did try and get Suter. Talking numbers does no good because we'll never know the actual truth. And considering the situation with Parise it's safe to say at the very least money wasn't everything for him. We were one of the few teams that had a shot at both Suter and Parise. We are going to be the team that is going to be linked to every big name free agent, we still have 8+ million in cap space, with Cleary's 3 mill off the books in a year.

We aren't in a bad situation right now, ideally we would have landed Suter, but let's not act like Holland didn't make an effort for Suter, was on a beach somewhere burning Red Wings jerseys yelling at the top of his lungs" I hate the Detroit fans I hope they enjoy all these s*** players I just got!"

And considering how this lock out is going, Holland might be even more of a genius by waiting to sign elite players after the new agreements get in place, we might get a better deal for a better player than Suter and Parise to 10 million each.

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I'm pretty sure he did try and get Suter. Talking numbers does no good because we'll never know the actual truth. And considering the situation with Parise it's safe to say at the very least money wasn't everything for him. We were one of the few teams that had a shot at both Suter and Parise. We are going to be the team that is going to be linked to every big name free agent, we still have 8+ million in cap space, with Cleary's 3 mill off the books in a year.

We aren't in a bad situation right now, ideally we would have landed Suter, but let's not act like Holland didn't make an effort for Suter, was on a beach somewhere burning Red Wings jerseys yelling at the top of his lungs" I hate the Detroit fans I hope they enjoy all these s*** players I just got!"

And considering how this lock out is going, Holland might be even more of a genius by waiting to sign elite players after the new agreements get in place, we might get a better deal for a better player than Suter and Parise to 10 million each.

Yah, im hoping it all works out too. But holmstrom signing for last 3 years, bertuzzi signings, samuelsson signing = all crap. Holland doesnt recognize the youth and energy need this team has. Hes too focused on extending guys past their usefulness. Im sick of watching 35+ year olds ( with a few exceptions like Lids) burn up minutes we should be giving to the prospects.

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Yah, im hoping it all works out too. But holmstrom signing for last 3 years, bertuzzi signings, samuelsson signing = all crap. Holland doesnt recognize the youth and energy need this team has. Hes too focused on extending guys past their usefulness. Im sick of watching 35+ year olds ( with a few exceptions like Lids) burn up minutes we should be giving to the prospects.

While it's good to have prospects up and getting time to develop, they can do the same in junior leagues on farm teams. It's good to have a mixture of veteran and young players. Too many young players and they won't have the experience or mentor ship to get them far. Too many veteran players and they normally will be too predictable and easy to maintain. A mixture will allow for fresh minds, while having the veterans working their magic into them. It's always been the way the franchise works and it's going to continue to be that while Holland controls the team. While I would love for some of our prospects to be in the big show currently, I understand that if you give them more time to mature, they will mature better with the game. In that sense, and i'm not sure how old you are but i'm hoping you can understand it, look back at your twenties, hell, from 18 til 22 you go through so many changes maturity wise. You see the world different, you think different, things just make more sense. If you allow for the prospects to mature, and get into that mindframe where they understand life just alittle more, they will develop better in the big leagues. Let them get the youngness out in juniors and the farm teams, let them develop, and then slowly implement them within the system with your veterans. So while you may be sick of watching "35+ year olds" (which is funny, because I believe the average age of this team like is 28ish) it's for the better of this team, and quite frankly it's been working the past two decades.

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Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous

We've lost Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. Here is our blue line, as it currently stands:

Kronwall - White

Quincey - Ericsson

Smith - Colaiacovo

Kindl

That's inexcusable - especially for 1) the best GM in the league, and, frankly, 2) The Detroit Effing Red Wings.

Saying, "Well, I don't really see any deals that could've been made. And looking at the list of the guys who were dealt...." isn't really a solid counterargument. Ken Holland deals in magic; his reputation (as the best GM in the league, a genius, etc.) is built largely on his ability to pull the perfect deal seemingly out of thin air and give this team exactly what it needs, often filling a hole everyone knows was there but no one reasonably believed could be filled - and all for good coin and term (usually).

That he hasn't done so re: our blue line (and he hasn't) indicates to me that he's in La La Land, not that there hasn't been a single worthwhile deal he could've made over the past 3-4 seasons (come on, man).

To be clear: I'm not tearing him down for losing the Suter sweepstakes. I'm not tearing him down at all, really. I'm just pointing out an extremely uncharacteristic lapse in, well, call it "GM smarts." Though, yeah - there is that fear in the back of my mind that it's more than a lapse....

P.S. Top GMs don't get points for trying.

Edited by Dabura
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Saying, "Well, I don't really see any deals that could've been made. And looking at the list of the guys who were dealt...." isn't really a solid counterargument. Ken Holland deals in magic; his reputation (as the best GM in the league, a genius, etc.) is built largely on his ability to pull the perfect deal seemingly out of thin air and give this team exactly what it needs, often filling a hole everyone knows was there but no one reasonably believed could be filled - and all for good coin and term (usually).

Well, heck, if the baseline standard for Holland as a GM is "deals in magic", no wonder he can't live up to the hype! Unfortunately, while Suter would have been a good signing, I don't think magic could've done the trick to get him here. Maybe witchcraft.

I think what people underappreciate about good GM's like Holland is that the majority of doing a good job is all about the moves you didn't make. Since the cap was implemented, you can't find a single long-term really bad deal that has strapped this team. Some people are hot and cold on Franzen, but his cap hit of under $4 million is totally reasonable for his level of production. Even the Ericsson and Quincy deals, which are 2 or 3 years between 3-4 million per...sure I was annoyed when we signed those, but if the alternative is paying the same amount on the open market for Jeff Finger, or going up to the $5 million range for similar players...the Wings never make those type of mistakes. And the reality of being an older team that's always a buyer or neutral at the deadline (because we're always in the mix) means that have lower drafter picks to use, and have to trade some of them for other veteran pieces.

I full admit acknowledge that Sammy and Tootoo deals make no sense to me, but I can't get too up in arms about relatively small commitments to role players when we still have quite a bit of cap room to play with. But the main thing is that we have no idea what the CBA will look like when we emerge from this lockout. Budget-wise, however, I would have to have think that it's much preferable to have a bit a buffer built into there, as opposed to being right up against the (current) Cap. I imagine that Cap will have to go down, one way or another.

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Well, heck, if the baseline standard for Holland as a GM is "deals in magic", no wonder he can't live up to the hype! Unfortunately, while Suter would have been a good signing, I don't think magic could've done the trick to get him here. Maybe witchcraft.

I think what people underappreciate about good GM's like Holland is that the majority of doing a good job is all about the moves you didn't make. Since the cap was implemented, you can't find a single long-term really bad deal that has strapped this team. Some people are hot and cold on Franzen, but his cap hit of under $4 million is totally reasonable for his level of production. Even the Ericsson and Quincy deals, which are 2 or 3 years between 3-4 million per...sure I was annoyed when we signed those, but if the alternative is paying the same amount on the open market for Jeff Finger, or going up to the $5 million range for similar players...the Wings never make those type of mistakes. And the reality of being an older team that's always a buyer or neutral at the deadline (because we're always in the mix) means that have lower drafter picks to use, and have to trade some of them for other veteran pieces.

I full admit acknowledge that Sammy and Tootoo deals make no sense to me, but I can't get too up in arms about relatively small commitments to role players when we still have quite a bit of cap room to play with. But the main thing is that we have no idea what the CBA will look like when we emerge from this lockout. Budget-wise, however, I would have to have think that it's much preferable to have a bit a buffer built into there, as opposed to being right up against the (current) Cap. I imagine that Cap will have to go down, one way or another.

3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.

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3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.

Sure 4 million would have landed Erhoff, but for 10 years. That's ludicrous for a one dimensional defenseman that really wouldn't fit into our defense, ideally I would like a guy like Wisniewski 6 years is pretty steep, but I wouldn't have minded he's young, he's a better two way player but I don't think he's the one that I want playing along side Kronwall or Smith that can allow those two the freedom to get involved offensively. Wisniewski would have to change his game, he's productive but takes a lot of chances that the Red Wings system would not allow.

Length of contract on mediocore to slightly above average players is not how you build a good team for the long run. Both those players are good right now, but those contracts are monsters in length, and that's the bigger issue. We already have Z,Dats, Franzen, Kronwall for long term deals, what makes you think we don't need flexibility in the coming years?

I'd like to see Holland build the best team he can, we need that top pairing defenseman, but filling that need with 10 year duck tape isn't the best way to go about it imo. We still have 8 million in cap space, we still have plenty of trading assets, and we still apparently have plenty of time. Holland can very easily still turn this into gold without too much more work.

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3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.

Wis was in it for the paycheck. If we would have offered 5, CBJ would've offered 6. They wanted the man, and quite frankly don't care how much they needed to pay for him. I don't think Holland has overpaid for anyone. We've seen little of Quincey, whom had to change systems within a season. We can further evaluate that situation after the next season. He also came into the system when we were on our winning streak. A lot of factors for someone to come back into to. When it comes to managing money and contracts, Holland is not the man to f with. He knows what he's doing, and quite frankly he knows a lot more than any of us could possibly imagine.

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We traded a first rounder for Quincey(Size, speed, physical, and productive), brought in White(very underrated) for Rafalski albeit Raffy was amazing, he wasn't going to be the same player due to injuries and Ian White has been very very good for us. Quincey underperformed without a doubt, but he's only 27, on a good contract and has a track record of being a very productive scorer.

To put Quincey is perspective, as bad as he was last year he still put up the same numbers to Visnovsky, Eric Johnson, Corvo, Fowler, Bouwmeester, Zidlicky, and Hedman who are all top 4 defenseman at the very least.

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous, I don't see a trade that would have made this team better. If we landed Ryan Suter, we would have the best offensive defense in the league, and it wouldn't be close, right now we are below average defensively, and above average offensively. But that's just the current state, we have cap space, and assets to use. Not to mention a pretty young core with giant ceiling's in Quincey and Brendan Smith.

Look at Matt Carle's 5.5 million for 6 year deal. He's a solid two way player no doubt, but compared to Ian White he's the same age and signed for 2.75 million a year. Half the deal, and we got someone that's just as good .03 career PPG difference, Ian White is a better skater, and more physical even though Carle has a few inches. I just don't see how that contract and player would help the Wings in the long run.

Bryan Allen? Decent player, never much of an offensive guy, but I'd been ok with the signing. But instead we got Colaiacovo who is cheaper, younger, more offensive minded, takes much less penalties. I don't see how this would make or break our team.

I fail to see these numerous options Holland had that were no brainers, unless I missed Subban, Yandle, Enstrom etc. get traded for scraps.

And to add to your point...

The Wings are currently front runners to scoop up Dan DeKeyser after this season is over (who apparently has comparable skill level to Justin Schultz, who is tearing up the AHL) and have drafted VERY well the past few years.

If you want a Matt Carle type guy, wait a year or 2 and we'll have Ryan Sproul.

Bryan Allen, wait for Xavier Oulette, who has a comparable play style with more offense as people have mentioned.

Want another big bruiser on the blueline, McKee should make his way up quickly. 4 years from now our D could be:

Kronwall-Smith

McKee-Dekeyser

Sproul-Ericsson/Quincey

Oulette

But we're all so spoiled from the moves Kenny made over the years to make/keep the Wings a powerhouse that we can't wait a couple years to be the front runner for the Cup again with the guys he drafted.

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We've lost Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. Here is our blue line, as it currently stands:

Kronwall - White

Quincey - Ericsson

Smith - Colaiacovo

Kindl

That's inexcusable - especially for 1) the best GM in the league, and, frankly, 2) The Detroit Effing Red Wings.

Saying, "Well, I don't really see any deals that could've been made. And looking at the list of the guys who were dealt...." isn't really a solid counterargument. Ken Holland deals in magic; his reputation (as the best GM in the league, a genius, etc.) is built largely on his ability to pull the perfect deal seemingly out of thin air and give this team exactly what it needs, often filling a hole everyone knows was there but no one reasonably believed could be filled - and all for good coin and term (usually).

That he hasn't done so re: our blue line (and he hasn't) indicates to me that he's in La La Land, not that there hasn't been a single worthwhile deal he could've made over the past 3-4 seasons (come on, man).

To be clear: I'm not tearing him down for losing the Suter sweepstakes. I'm not tearing him down at all, really. I'm just pointing out an extremely uncharacteristic lapse in, well, call it "GM smarts." Though, yeah - there is that fear in the back of my mind that it's more than a lapse....

P.S. Top GMs don't get points for trying.

Doughty - Mitchell

Scuderi - Greene

Voynov - Martinez

Drewiske

Volchenkov - Zidlicky

Tallinder - Salvador

Greene - Fayne

Larsson

We have a boat load of NHL ready forwards. Watch when the CBA gets decided and and other teams go into firesale mode. Kenny can sit back and use all the tradeable assists hes got a forward to bring in some D for cheap. Genius.

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But we're all so spoiled from the moves Kenny made over the years to make/keep the Wings a powerhouse that we can't wait a couple years to be the front runner for the Cup again with the guys he drafted.

Ah, yes, the "spoiled fans" angle.

We have good talent in the pipeline. If that's the reason Holland has allowed our D corps to fall into mediocrity, well, that's all kinds of wack.

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We have a boat load of NHL ready forwards. Watch when the CBA gets decided and and other teams go into firesale mode. Kenny can sit back and use all the tradeable assists hes got a forward to bring in some D for cheap. Genius.

He shouldn't be in this position, though. That's the point.

The Kings' blue line wasn't out-of-this-world spectacular, but it didn't need to be. The whole team was, to man, completely committed to winning. They played tremendously tight hockey. They played lights-out.

We aren't the same. We need a fairly out-of-this-world blue line to offset our scoring lines' inevitable postseason struggles.

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Ah, yes, the "spoiled fans" angle.

We have good talent in the pipeline. If that's the reason Holland has allowed our D corps to fall into mediocrity, well, that's all kinds of wack.

It's not an "angle" it's true lol. Other teams wait for many years for their entire team to rebuild...wings fans are not even patient enough to wait for 1 or 2 years while their mediocre defense gets rebuilt into a great one.

Commit to guys like Ehrhoff and Wisniewski for big money for 5+ years? or sign gappers like Colo on cheap short contracts and wait to have Sproul, McKee, Ouellete, Marchenko, DeKesyer on reasonable contracts? I'll take the latter

Wiz for over 5.5 for 6 years is bad business. Waiting a few years and having guys like Sproul for 3.5 is good business.

Not to mention wasting big money on long contracts on guys like Ehrhoff and Wiz means we won't have that to spend on our own young guys when they come up.

He shouldn't be in this position, though. That's the point.

The Kings' blue line wasn't out-of-this-world spectacular, but it didn't need to be. The whole team was, to man, completely committed to winning. They played tremendously tight hockey. They played lights-out.

We aren't the same. We need a fairly out-of-this-world blue line to offset our scoring lines' inevitable postseason struggles.

So the Kings don't need a good blue line because "theyre comitted to winning"....what?

Quick played lights out.

5 bad post season games and now we suck? gotcha

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Sure 4 million would have landed Erhoff, but for 10 years. That's ludicrous for a one dimensional defenseman that really wouldn't fit into our defense, ideally I would like a guy like Wisniewski 6 years is pretty steep, but I wouldn't have minded he's young, he's a better two way player but I don't think he's the one that I want playing along side Kronwall or Smith that can allow those two the freedom to get involved offensively. Wisniewski would have to change his game, he's productive but takes a lot of chances that the Red Wings system would not allow.

Length of contract on mediocore to slightly above average players is not how you build a good team for the long run. Both those players are good right now, but those contracts are monsters in length, and that's the bigger issue. We already have Z,Dats, Franzen, Kronwall for long term deals, what makes you think we don't need flexibility in the coming years?

I'd like to see Holland build the best team he can, we need that top pairing defenseman, but filling that need with 10 year duck tape isn't the best way to go about it imo. We still have 8 million in cap space, we still have plenty of trading assets, and we still apparently have plenty of time. Holland can very easily still turn this into gold without too much more work.

Six years is not too long for a young guy, as you mentioned. Especially one that is aggressive, is awesome on the power play, has a laser for a shot, and has put up 50 pts. in the past. I'd have spend on Wiz, rather than give Ericsson the raise he didn't deserve at the time.

As for Erhoff, I seriously doubt he plays into his 40's. When he retires, his contract comes off the books. No big deal. Even if he doesn't, he's a tradeable asset later on, teams put a premium on puck moving defensemen at the deadline when they're trying to make a playoff run and need help on the blue line.

But yes, it was a long contract.

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3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.

This is my point. Im fine with not overspending on A+ talent as long as the alternative isnt overspending on D- talent. Saying Parise is too expensive at 9 mil per and then signing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Quincey for 9 mil per is just STUPID.

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This is my point. Im fine with not overspending on A+ talent as long as the alternative isnt overspending on D- talent. Saying Parise is too expensive at 9 mil per and then signing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Quincey for 9 mil per is just STUPID.

Parise cant play 3 roster spots

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Ah, yes, the "spoiled fans" angle.

We have good talent in the pipeline. If that's the reason Holland has allowed our D corps to fall into mediocrity, well, that's all kinds of wack.

Our D may surprise you if a season ever starts. And with younger forwards added into the mix that have younger legs to backcheck it'll help a lot with positioning in the defensive zone.

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Tatar has been lighting up the AHL with Nyquist, but it still holds the same point. I'd rather go with the latter in that situation and take the 3 players over parise that 9mil. It's just fundamentals, we didn't sign them long-term but it gives us time to allow our minors to develop properly. Rushing a player into a league that he can't compete in, is worst for the player. They won't instill the confidence they would've if they were given more time in the minors. We talk about maturity and at the same time we got one of our leaders giving out his ID for an underage to go drink at the bars (i know how it works, but it just looks bad when you're a star prospect and leader for the team. just don't get caught) and the one using it getting a second alcohol infraction, this one being a DWI @ .3. So no, as much as I wanted parise to come to us, I don't want to give him the world and everything he wants. It should be hand in hand when dealing with a franchise. They supply you with a contract and money, and you supply them with the product. Sometimes, even the most wanted product isn't worth what it cost in the end. Not saying that Parise isn't worth money, or isn't a great player, but he certainly isn't a player that you throw 9mil/yr at.

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