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Motown4013

Has your opinion of kenny changed?

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Exactly I am so glad, they didn't get L. Schenn otherwhise they'd be unstoppable, but I think they've lost some toughness in terms of Prust and Scott.

True but with Callahan, Boyle, and Rupp, plus adding Asham, Pyatt, and Halpern, their still tougher than us!

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Half the time Semin plays like he has doorknobs in his hockey pants, not bringing him here was a good decision.

Tootoo i'm fine with, but Prust would have been a better option for that role imo.

I'm good friends with a true Rangers fan that lives in NY and I hate every minute of the Rangers having a sick team right now.

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I didn't say that.

He's not responsible for starting this dynasty. However, he and several others helped carry it along and keep it at or near the top.

I agree. He didnt have much to do with our cup success. Good point, GMR.

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I agree. He didnt have much to do with our cup success. Good point, GMR.

Do you say this stuff because you actually believe it, or because you think it's really clever to instigate people? Seriously, I have to know.

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Do you say this stuff because you actually believe it, or because you think it's really clever to instigate people? Seriously, I have to know.

Do you say this because you "have to know" or because you think it's clever to instigate Axe? I have to know.

And do I really "have to know" or am I just trying to be funny?

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Do you say this because you "have to know" or because you think it's clever to instigate Axe? I have to know.

And do I really "have to know" or am I just trying to be funny?

Both, though I do have to wonder about anyone who can suggest that Holland didn't have anything to do with our Cups in spite of the fact that he was either wholly or partially responsible for drafting Zetterberg, Hudler, Franzen, Datsyuk, Fischer, and Kronwall, and signing or trading for Shanahan, Chelios, Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, Drake, Stuart, Malty, Kocur (the second time around), Larionov (the second time around), Samuelsson, or Cleary.

Because obviously none of those guys contributed to the cups (especially 2002 and 2008) in any serious way.

Edited by kipwinger
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He has been doing better lately: Smith, Sheahan, Sproul, Aubry, Callahan, Bodin

I think we tend to draft small because we play the skill game. When your system requires that most of your players are skilled your gonna have to draft a lot of skilled softies. And because we always pick late, all the players who are blessed with both size and skill are gone when they get to us.

I understand why Holland drafted the players he did - just that guys like Lucic, and that little snot Marchand (I say "little snot" with affection since I like his style of play) were available, but Kenny went other players instead.

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I understand why Holland drafted the players he did - just that guys like Lucic, and that little snot Marchand (I say "little snot" with affection since I like his style of play) were available, but Kenny went other players instead.

Yes Emmerton and Matthias a couple picks before Lucic is sad plus Axelsson a couple before Marchand

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Doesn't mean you don't bring someone in.

And I don't mean Carlo Colaiacovo.

Who?

Did you want to give up Filpulla, Smith and a first for Brent Burns? Did we even have a 30+ goal scorer to trade for Jack Johnson? Would either of those offensive minded defenseman really fit into the long term with this defense.

To me there hasn't been defenseman moved that would insure the top pairing outside of Burns and Suter. Kenny did the reasonable thing and not deal away the future, and hope to sign a top pairing defenseman through free agency. He tried to get Suter, he just missed. If he missed on Enstrom, Yandle getting traded for scraps, or something else I'd understand the dissapointment, but Holland can't get people to move their top defenseman at will, Holland's put us in great position to have plenty of cap space, and assets. I'm very happy with the current organization and feel we have a lot of flexibility that other playoff teams would dream to have.

Edited by Carman
Motown4013 and number9 like this

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Who?

Did you want to give up Filpulla, Smith and a first for Brent Burns? Did we even have a 30+ goal scorer to trade for Jack Johnson? Would either of those offensive minded defenseman really fit into the long term with this defense.

To me there hasn't been defenseman moved that would insure the top pairing outside of Burns and Suter. Kenny did the reasonable thing and not deal away the future, and hope to sign a top pairing defenseman through free agency. He tried to get Suter, he just missed. If he missed on Enstrom, Yandle getting traded for scraps, or something else I'd understand the dissapointment, but Holland can't get people to move their top defenseman at will, Holland's put us in great position to have plenty of cap space, and assets. I'm very happy with the current organization and feel we have a lot of flexibility that other playoff teams would dream to have.

I think the point that he was trying to make is that over the last three off seasons at least 10-15 defensemen have been moved (or were available) that are significantly better than anyone we've got aside from Kronwall. Of course they weren't going to replace Lidstrom or be a number one d-man, but they were still better than what we're left with now.

Edit: Here's just a cursory glance at some of the defensemen who have been moved in the last three offseasons, none of whom landed in Detroit but all of whom are an upgrade over almost every defenseman on our team. This list is limited to top four d-men, and doesn't include defensemen acquired in trades. Still, it does give you an idea that guys were out there to be had.

2012: Suter, Carle, Wideman, Allen, Garrison

2011: Bieksa, Hamerlik, Jovanovski, Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Salo, Erhoff,

2010: Gonchar, Hamhuis.

Edited by kipwinger

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I think being a GM behind a computer screen is an easy job. Sometimes the best moves are the ones that aren't made. Can't say I'm thrilled with all the moves that Holland makes, but I think overall, he does his job well. I think the lack of moves this offseason were correctly dictated by the lack of a CBA. I like the fact the Wings don't make moves for one season, but think long term as well.

That said, I would have rather seen another pure goal scorer (enough role players already). IMO, not EVERY player on the ice has to be good defensively. They need someone who shoots the puck at the net. There had to be some good reason why Semin wasn't signed. Maybe Datsyuk wasn't on board with it. Just speculating, but it seems like he would have filled a gaping hole and wasn't all that expensive or a long term committment.

Not a big Tootoo fan either. I don't think he's tough or gritty, just annoying and not to the other team. Reminds me a bit of Sean Avery. He takes bad penalties at inopportune times, not to mention, he still has a recent problem with alcohol.

It'd be nice to have a season to be able to judge.

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I think the point that he was trying to make is that over the last three off seasons at least 10-15 defensemen have been moved (or were available) that are significantly better than anyone we've got aside from Kronwall. Of course they weren't going to replace Lidstrom or be a number one d-man, but they were still better than what we're left with now.

Edit: Here's just a cursory glance at some of the defensemen who have been moved in the last three offseasons, none of whom landed in Detroit but all of whom are an upgrade over almost every defenseman on our team. This list is limited to top four d-men, and doesn't include defensemen acquired in trades. Still, it does give you an idea that guys were out there to be had.

2012: Suter, Carle, Wideman, Allen, Garrison

2011: Bieksa, Hamerlik, Jovanovski, Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Salo, Erhoff,

2010: Gonchar, Hamhuis.

Rights traded

Suter wanted to play with Parise at home in Minnesota

Carle wanted to be back in Tampa

Garrison wanted to be in his hometown Vancouver

Bieksa was never moved and said publicly he had no intention of leaving Vancouver

Jovo wanted to be back in Florida

Pitkanen wanted to play with Jokinen in Carolina

Hamhuis wanted to be home in BC

So you have Gonchar, Salo, Hamrlik, and Allen. And Gonchar, Hamrlik, and Salo are all old shells of their former selves

Dang we shoulda chased Bryan Allen

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I think being a GM behind a computer screen is an easy job. Sometimes the best moves are the ones that aren't made. Can't say I'm thrilled with all the moves that Holland makes, but I think overall, he does his job well. I think the lack of moves this offseason were correctly dictated by the lack of a CBA. I like the fact the Wings don't make moves for one season, but think long term as well.

That said, I would have rather seen another pure goal scorer (enough role players already). IMO, not EVERY player on the ice has to be good defensively. They need someone who shoots the puck at the net. There had to be some good reason why Semin wasn't signed. Maybe Datsyuk wasn't on board with it. Just speculating, but it seems like he would have filled a gaping hole and wasn't all that expensive or a long term committment.

Not a big Tootoo fan either. I don't think he's tough or gritty, just annoying and not to the other team. Reminds me a bit of Sean Avery. He takes bad penalties at inopportune times, not to mention, he still has a recent problem with alcohol.

It'd be nice to have a season to be able to judge.

If we had signed Semin that would have sent a message to the rest of our players that you can float and still be a wing. Not a good example for our young guys.

I think he had problems with pain killers too. You'd be surprised how many players abuse drugs and alcohol, most are capable of keeping it on the DL though.

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Well Marchand can act "tough'" because he knows guys like Boychuck, Chara, Shawn Thornton and Lucic are watching his back, he wouldn't do so otherhwise.

Like I said I really love the signing of the Monster, Colaiacovo what a pain to spell is just a depth signing so whatever but Tootoo and Samuellson aren't bringing anything we need, which is goalscoring and toughness. Tootoo while decent in his own class is more an agitator that an enforcer I'd compare him to Burrows, Marchand and Avery.

Top defenseman these days are very rare, if they don't want to wear the winged wheel it's sad but as a GM you need to have a plan B, C, D and maybe even F. Behind the GM behind a pc is an easy task but there are tons of reasons, why NHL GMs are making tons of money these guys are smart and know the business side of the job very very well.

So if you ask me imho would have prefered to not sign Tootoo and Samuellson in order to give some young guns more icetime and let them grow into a bigger role with the big club. Prust for sure is overpaid but he brings it all, every night and can add something Tootoo doesn't provide.

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Rights traded

Suter wanted to play with Parise at home in Minnesota

Carle wanted to be back in Tampa

Garrison wanted to be in his hometown Vancouver

Bieksa was never moved and said publicly he had no intention of leaving Vancouver

Jovo wanted to be back in Florida

Pitkanen wanted to play with Jokinen in Carolina

Hamhuis wanted to be home in BC

So you have Gonchar, Salo, Hamrlik, and Allen. And Gonchar, Hamrlik, and Salo are all old shells of their former selves

Dang we shoulda chased Bryan Allen

1. They weren't traded, their rights were.

2. I'm not really too upset about a guy who is mildly dirty as long as he's physical. That Allen video didn't break my heart.

3. Salo and Gonchar had stats either better or favorable to Kronwall last season, despite their age. Hamrlik wasn't great last season, but his 13 points and plus 11 are still better than all but two of our returning d-men.

4. Also, I think you're stretching this "wanted to be back in..." such and such place argument. Carle played 12 games in Tampa about four years ago. Fairly sure his roots aren't sunk too deep. Jovo hadn't played in Florida in 13 years, and I can't find one source that suggests that the reason Pikanen signed with Carolina is because of Jussi Jokinen.

Edited by kipwinger

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holland is one of the best GM's in the league and arguably the #1 GM, that being said even the greatest cant always get everything. my opinion hasnt changed on kenny at all, sure suter and parise are good but idk if their as good as their contracts says they are. im just glad kenny finally brought in a little grit this year instead of hoping bertuzzi's gloves come un stiched from his hands

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I agree that future planning for Lids should have started happening after we won the cup in 2008. How long did people really think he was going to play.

On another note, I cant predict whether or not Holland knew there was going to be a lockout but he is an intelligent and sophisticated GM...very respected and i would imagine he would have some clue as to what the league and his peers were thinking. Based on that assumption, I dont think he handcuffed the team with a major bonus signings or outrageoustacts and I respect him for that. If the Cap rolls back, teams are gonna be f4cked...and the wings really aren't!

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1. They weren't traded, their rights were.

2. I'm not really too upset about a guy who is mildly dirty as long as he's physical. That Allen video didn't break my heart.

3. Salo and Gonchar had stats either better or favorable to Kronwall last season, despite their age. Hamrlik wasn't great last season, but his 13 points and plus 11 are still better than all but two of our returning d-men.

4. Also, I think you're stretching this "wanted to be back in..." such and such place argument. Carle played 12 games in Tampa about four years ago. Fairly sure his roots aren't sunk too deep. Jovo hadn't played in Florida in 13 years, and I can't find one source that suggests that the reason Pikanen signed with Carolina is because of Jussi Jokinen.

1. Hence why I said "Rights traded"

2. Wasn't meant to

3. Signing Gonchar for 5.5 in 2010 would have been dumb. We still had Rafalski Stuart and Lidstrom. Salo's 3.75 cap hit takes him till he's 40. We need that money the next few years to give our young guys raises, instead it would be wasted on a 38-40 year old fast declining. Have no idea what your talking about with Hammer. Everyone one of our D-men outscored him last year except Ericsson, who had just 2 fewer points. (Smith had 7 pts in 14 gp and likely would have) (Kindl matched him playing 13 fewer games).

4. Jussi and Joni grew up playing together in Finland and are best friends. My bad on Carle, for some reason I thought Tampa drafted him, though I don't think he's worth 5.5. Jovo continued to live in Florida during those 13 years, I'm sure now that he's close to retirement he wanted to return home.

Like i said, why didn't Kenny chase Bryan Allen???

Z Winged Dangler likes this

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1. Hence why I said "Rights traded"

2. Wasn't meant to

3. Signing Gonchar for 5.5 in 2010 would have been dumb. We still had Rafalski Stuart and Lidstrom. Salo's 3.75 cap hit takes him till he's 40. We need that money the next few years to give our young guys raises, instead it would be wasted on a 38-40 year old fast declining. Have no idea what your talking about with Hammer. Everyone one of our D-men outscored him last year except Ericsson, who had just 2 fewer points. (Smith had 7 pts in 14 gp and likely would have) (Kindl matched him playing 13 fewer games).

4. Jussi and Joni grew up playing together in Finland and are best friends. My bad on Carle, for some reason I thought Tampa drafted him, though I don't think he's worth 5.5. Jovo continued to live in Florida during those 13 years, I'm sure now that he's close to retirement he wanted to return home.

Like i said, why didn't Kenny chase Bryan Allen???

We are spending 3 mil on Sammy. Horrible.

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1. Hence why I said "Rights traded"

2. Wasn't meant to

3. Signing Gonchar for 5.5 in 2010 would have been dumb. We still had Rafalski Stuart and Lidstrom. Salo's 3.75 cap hit takes him till he's 40. We need that money the next few years to give our young guys raises, instead it would be wasted on a 38-40 year old fast declining. Have no idea what your talking about with Hammer. Everyone one of our D-men outscored him last year except Ericsson, who had just 2 fewer points. (Smith had 7 pts in 14 gp and likely would have) (Kindl matched him playing 13 fewer games).

4. Jussi and Joni grew up playing together in Finland and are best friends. My bad on Carle, for some reason I thought Tampa drafted him, though I don't think he's worth 5.5. Jovo continued to live in Florida during those 13 years, I'm sure now that he's close to retirement he wanted to return home.

Like i said, why didn't Kenny chase Bryan Allen???

Yeah, I guess I misunderstood you. I was definitely in favor of signing Allen as well.

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Yeah, I guess I misunderstood you. I was definitely in favor of signing Allen as well.

So you dont think Kenny did a good job?

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(Belated response, sorry.)

The "Who?" game is lame. I don't know who Kenny should've-would've-could've picked had his head not been inserted firmly up his arse.

(Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. And our top-4 at present is, what, Kronwall-White--Quincey-Ericsson? Seriously?)

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(Belated response, sorry.)

The "Who?" game is lame. I don't know who Kenny should've-would've-could've picked had his head not been inserted firmly up his arse.

(Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. And our top-4 at present is, what, Kronwall-White--Quincey-Ericsson? Seriously?)

Smith

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