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unsaddleddonald

Putting Hank's goal scoring problems into perspective.

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Hanks been hurt all year...how many of you here have skated with a shredded groin...at the NHL level? s*** 95% on this forum has called in sick....Dude is leaving it all on the ice BUT because he's not potting 25 goals we might as well throw him on the trash heap with all the other guttless Wings.

I know you used to do s*** for me....but what have you done for me lately...

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Hanks been hurt all year...how many of you here have skated with a shredded groin...at the NHL level? s*** 95% on this forum has called in sick....Dude is leaving it all on the ice BUT because he's not potting 25 goals we might as well throw him on the trash heap with all the other guttless Wings.

I know you used to do s*** for me....but what have you done for me lately...

well we don't know if it is a "shredded" groin... but ya, I think Hank will be different next season. He played unreal earlier this year and has dropped off since because i think he has a lingering issue and is kinda burt out.

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Hanks been hurt all year...how many of you here have skated with a shredded groin...at the NHL level? s*** 95% on this forum has called in sick....Dude is leaving it all on the ice BUT because he's not potting 25 goals we might as well throw him on the trash heap with all the other guttless Wings.

I know you used to do s*** for me....but what have you done for me lately...

Link on the shredded groin thing or just speculation? Brent Gilchrist had a shredded groin, you don't tough that out no matter who you are. Zetterberg isn't scoring because he and Datsyuk get keyed on all game, every game, because they're the only offensive threats we've got. If Franzen's line started scoring goals regularly then the defensive emphasis would shift to that line and Zetterberg would score again. That's called depth and it will help you. Simple as that.

Edited by kipwinger

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I've been to some of these game and I've had the opportunity to sit up close (thanks to company tickets my father gets every year), let me tell you guys something. These guys get beat up day in an day out. I've watched Hank get his butt checked by guys almost twice as big as him from a few seats away. I'll tell you one thing though, he protects the puck with one hand very well, something even Datsyuk doesn't do as well. However Datsyuk has been fun to watch with his crazy deking ability that makes some of the D fall on their butts. Anyways the point im trying to make is, these guys are simply beat up. Half the time on ice that I've watch Zetterberg, he seems exhausted 30 seconds into his shift but just keeps on going. My buddy sitting next to me at the Chicago game at home said something like "Zetterberg plays like he's ran 30 miles before the game" Seriously, though up close the man looks exhausted this season.

These two men (zet and dats) have an incredible amount of pressure on them. Datsyuk is clearly in better shape and so he has a bit more stamina than Z but even he doesn't seem anywhere close to the speed he used to have a few years ago. Say what you guys must, but I've been analyzing these two all season long and have had the opportunity to do so from a few seats away.

Edited by kickazz
Hockeymom1960 likes this

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I've been to some of these game and I've had the opportunity to sit up close (thanks to company tickets my father gets every year), let me tell you guys something. These guys get beat up day in an day out. I've watched Hank get his butt checked by guys almost twice as big as him from a few seats away. I'll tell you one thing though, he protects the puck with one hand very well, something even Datsyuk doesn't do as well. However Datsyuk has been fun to watch with his crazy deking ability that makes some of the D fall on their butts. Anyways the point im trying to make is, these guys are simply beat up. Half the time on ice that I've watch Zetterberg, he seems exhausted 30 seconds into his shift but just keeps on going. My buddy sitting next to me at the Chicago game at home said something like "Zetterberg plays like he's ran 30 miles before the game" Seriously, though up close the man looks exhausted this season.

These two men (zet and dats) have an incredible amount of pressure on them. Datsyuk is clearly in better shape and so he has a bit more stamina than Z but even he doesn't seem anywhere close to the speed he used to have a few years ago. Say what you guys must, but I've been analyzing these two all season long and have had the opportunity to do so from a few seats away.

Of course they look worn out, they're carrying the team on their shoulders, and everybody knows it. Our team is a one trick pony and everybody has figured that out.

unsaddleddonald likes this

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I don't think they're passengers.

they're flat out just not good enough.

I agree that a lot of them are not good enough, but I think they're misutilized as well. For instance, Datsyuk needs the puck on his stick to be effective but he doesn't like to shoot, Brunner doesn't carry the puck much and does like to shoot. So put them together. Similarly, Zetterberg is defensively responsible and has shown that he can score a lot. Filppula is defensively responsible, and despite every opportunity, has shown he can't score. So why not let Flip center the second line (and take the lion's share of the defensive responsibility) and let Zetterberg play the wing where he can score. The defense is still in capable hands as Flip excels in that area, but at least you'll have someone on the wing that can score. Ideally, for the remainder of the season I'd like to see this.

Brunner-Dats-Franzen

Zetterberg-Flip-Abby

Nyquist-Andersson-Cleary

Tootoo-Emmerton-Miller/Eaves

When Bert gets back swap him with Abby and put Abby where Emmerton is. When Sammy gets back he rotates in and out with Cleary. Also, if we make the playoffs I'd strongly consider scratching both Cleary and Sammy and putting Tatar with Nyquist and Andersson as they've obviously got a lot of chemistry and have worked well together

Edited by kipwinger
Hockeymom1960 and ogreslayer like this

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Zetterberg and Datsyuk need a Stamkos. Until Holland pulls his head out and ponies up, why even get on these guys? Datsyuk has played with Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, Clearly and Abdelkader. This is hideous. I liken it to punishment. Imagine what it would be like if he had Z and a sniper. Oh wait. I don't have to imagine. It was fricken awesome when Z and Hull were his wingers. Holland should be doing everything possible to pry Bobby Ryan away from the Ducks and put him on a line with Z and Dats. That will help Zetterberg's output.

Really???

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What do you suggest if not building around our best guys?

Build for the future. Stockpile young players. Avoid panic-induced roster juggling. Look for moves that make sense long-term, rather than making moves just because you feel like you have to, and "well, it's the best we can do" at the time. Aim for a versatile prospect pool. Avoid long-term commitments unless they're players key to the future.

In time we'll find someone new to build around. With good work, we'll have a strong supporting cast already assembled and developed. With luck it will happen soon enough that Pav and Hank will still be around and good enough to lead the team while the next foundation players grow into it, and we'll be in position to make another long run at the top. Hopefully, we could get all that done without falling out of the playoffs.

If not, oh well. Nothing wrong with a little down stretch while we rebuild. "Down" is the easiest place to find those foundation players.

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Build for the future. Stockpile young players. Avoid panic-induced roster juggling. Look for moves that make sense long-term, rather than making moves just because you feel like you have to, and "well, it's the best we can do" at the time. Aim for a versatile prospect pool. Avoid long-term commitments unless they're players key to the future.

In time we'll find someone new to build around. With good work, we'll have a strong supporting cast already assembled and developed. With luck it will happen soon enough that Pav and Hank will still be around and good enough to lead the team while the next foundation players grow into it, and we'll be in position to make another long run at the top. Hopefully, we could get all that done without falling out of the playoffs.

If not, oh well. Nothing wrong with a little down stretch while we rebuild. "Down" is the easiest place to find those foundation players.

I agree that they're probably have to go young and start with the rebuild now (though I'm not sure that was the plan as recently as a couple weeks ago). But I hope they don't "stockpile" the young talent. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Seems like if they're going to do this they really need to see what they've got, and they can't do that unless they play these guys and give them good looks. You're not really doing yourself any favors by loading up on all these young guys only to keep them in GR while guys like Abby, Sammy, Cleary, Colaiacovo, and White are in the lineup. If you're going to rebuild, it seem like you're still going to have to make the unpleasant choice of cutting guys loose. And that's something this organization is generally reluctant to do.

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Or maybe people need to understand dats and z are OLD. They can't play forever and if people took of their fandom classes they'd see z is declining more rapidly than dat and he is younger!

I'm not saying they're not bad by any means. Dats is still one of the beat players in hockey hank is prolly in the 15-20 range. Where not too long ago they were both top 5 along with lids. That's the biggest problem.

They're still great players but not single handling carry a team every night of the week great. And its Hollands fault for not realizing this and getting them the help they need.

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Or maybe people need to understand dats and z are OLD. They can't play forever and if people took of their fandom classes they'd see z is declining more rapidly than dat and he is younger!

I'm not saying they're not bad by any means. Dats is still one of the beat players in hockey hank is prolly in the 15-20 range. Where not too long ago they were both top 5 along with lids. That's the biggest problem.

They're still great players but not single handling carry a team every night of the week great. And its Hollands fault for not realizing this and getting them the help they need.

Don't you know you can't say that about Holland? He's the best. Geez

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Here's some perspective. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the biggest offensive threats we have. You know it, I know it, and every team we play knows it. When they're separated they get double teamed, and when they're together no other line has any potential offense. We simply don't have the horses. That's why they don't score...because everyone and their brother knows to key on those guys to the exclusion of everyone else.

To a point. Hank's has been down for four years. Datsyuk isn't down much. Of course having better players around them or more depth would help. But neither of them is the same player they were a few years ago. Part of their job is to elevate the players around them. In that respect, they have failed as often as the players around them have failed at playing up to their capabilities. It's not like they're serving up goals on a silver platter and the rest of the team is just blowing the opportunities. They're getting double-teamed and turning the puck over. Part of that is teammates failing to give them enough options, part of it is Pav and Hank failing to find the options they do have.

But I don't want to further derail this with criticism. Probably gives the wrong impression. Both do all I would expect of them, and occasionally more. The thread is about Hank's degrading goal-scoring, which I believe to be more about him than everyone around him.

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Hank on a wing with pav at center and Ryan on the other wing = point a game players all 3. Need a legit goal scorer. Not ice capades.

Z-Dats-Ryan

Horton-Helm-Nyquist

Tatar-Andersson-Ericsson

Jarnkrok-Emmerton-Sheahan

Ferarro

Kronwall-Dekeyser

Kindl-Quincey

Smith-Lashoff

Sproul, Ouelette

Howard

Mrazek

That's my roster.

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His goal scoring numbers have slowly been dwindling over the years.

In his best years, he took a boatload of shots, but had better aim and was good in front of the net. Now, he just throws pucks from crappy angles like the rest of the team.

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His goal scoring numbers have slowly been dwindling over the years.

In his best years, he took a boatload of shots, but had better aim and was good in front of the net. Now, he just throws pucks from crappy angles like the rest of the team.

.

Z and Dats have been abysmall with putting shots on goal! Sadly they get the best looks yet still missing net

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Hank on a wing with pav at center and Ryan on the other wing = point a game players all 3. Need a legit goal scorer. Not ice capades.

Z-Dats-Ryan

Horton-Helm-Nyquist

Tatar-Andersson-Ericsson

Jarnkrok-Emmerton-Sheahan

Ferarro

Kronwall-Dekeyser

Kindl-Quincey

Smith-Lashoff

Sproul, Ouelette

Howard

Mrazek

That's my roster.

You are being sarcastic on this one right?

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.

Z and Dats have been abysmall with putting shots on goal! Sadly they get the best looks yet still missing net

It's too bad they canot be counted on to pot the goals like Chicago's core.

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Yes Z and dat have been slowly declining for about 5 years now. Not a giant sudden drop, but the slow one that happens with father time. It will continue. 1 is 32 the other 35. This is to be expected. neither was ever truely a goal scorer. Like most Euro C's they forced themselves to learn to shoot, and did well for several years.neither is very big and yes the season and grind will wear them down. This isn't a surprise. It is normal. It is the fact we have no one to step up and replace/improve over them that is new. When Stevie, Federov, and Shanny started to slow down, we have Z and dat. Now we have..... tatar? Yikes.

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I'm not sure if I agree with people who've been saying that Z is "declining" over the years. Sure, his goal scoring ability is far lower than what it used to be, but his assists have gone up. And he's been leading the team in points the past 3 years, albeit he's played more games each season than Datsyuk did. Datsyuk had a broken hand and was forced to play less games. Sure. But to be honest guys, I would rather have a broken hand for one season then have back problems for 3. Zetterberg's has been leading in points for 3 years and he has been doing it through back problems. I'm not sure how many of us here have played some ice-hockey for local teams but don't you guys agree than back pains can seriously cause you to slow down? And to those of you have experienced it, you know very well as I do that it's not something you recover right away from and it's ALWAYS lurking around if you play a long season. Look closely at Z when he skates, he really does not look anything like he used to in the 08 season, his form is completely different. When he was younger he had more of a "bend" while he skated. If you look now, his plays more in an "erect" posture. Those are signs of someone who has a bad back. Z reminds me of Stevie a lot. He's playing hockey through injury. Not necessarily good for him in the long run but hey, give him credit.

I don't think we will be seeing Z able to produce 40 goals and 90 points unless we have another young talent on our team. Z has no way of sitting games out. The pressure is on him and if this continues, he will be aging out way sooner than he should be. Stevie Y was able to play until 40 because of the fact that he had young guys who could step up and take over the goal scoring and point producing for him (this was dats and zet when they were younger), Who does Zet have to fill in his shoes? Nobody... I mean look at Stevie, he had a year off for rest, came back and scored 18 goals and 51 points as a 38 year old as a 3rd line center... That's pretty damn impressive.

Edited by kickazz

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If a team is going to get anywhere, the stars have to play like stars. I like Pav and Z and realize they are probably battling injuries, but this is what they get paid the big bucks for. Not trying hard, not playing sound defense, but by putting the puck in the net. Yes, Franzen and Flip and others need to contribute as well, but it starts at the top.

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If a team is going to get anywhere, the stars have to play like stars. I like Pav and Z and realize they are probably battling injuries, but this is what they get paid the big bucks for. Not trying hard, not playing sound defense, but by putting the puck in the net. Yes, Franzen and Flip and others need to contribute as well, but it starts at the top.

You can't physically have the speed if you're battling injury and fatigue though. You're comparing apples to oranges when ya say "they're getting payed big bucks". Look at Kobe Bryant, the guy makes more an Z and Dat combined and now he's out of the season with a torn ACL. How is that his fault? Similarly, if Dat and Z are being overworked because they don't have good teammates, how is it theyre fault that theyre fatigued? They're giving it all they can with the little bit of gas they have left. We know for a fact that Z and Pav are the hardest working members on that team. The coaching staff and players have said it to the media.

They may look sloppy to us, but they do give it their best. Unfortunately it doesn't work out when youre losing your touch.

Edited by kickazz

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I agree that they're probably have to go young and start with the rebuild now (though I'm not sure that was the plan as recently as a couple weeks ago). But I hope they don't "stockpile" the young talent. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Seems like if they're going to do this they really need to see what they've got, and they can't do that unless they play these guys and give them good looks. You're not really doing yourself any favors by loading up on all these young guys only to keep them in GR while guys like Abby, Sammy, Cleary, Colaiacovo, and White are in the lineup. If you're going to rebuild, it seem like you're still going to have to make the unpleasant choice of cutting guys loose. And that's something this organization is generally reluctant to do.

Yes, eventually the young guys have to play, and I believe they will. But most of our prospects haven't yet played pro hockey in NA. Many will be in GR next season. Cleary and White will likely be gone this summer, Sammy, Bert, and Cola likely after next year. The openings will come. Maybe not as quickly or as many as some would like, but they'll be there. Some of the kids will likely wash out in the AHL. Once we have a better idea of what we have, some may be traded away to better balance our strengths. The windows may be small and the kids may have to really excell in limited time to squeeze in.

The past and the future are very different situations, so I would expect different behavior from management. Even though some of the decisions this past summer may look similar, to me they look more like stop-gap measures to try to keep us in the playoffs while we wait for the kids to develop some more. And who can say what might have been different if we'd had a real training camp.

Likely no different for Andersson and Lashoff. But the spots they'd fill are already filled with young players anyway. Helm, Abby, and Emmy are all young bottom-6 centers. Mursak was a kid getting his chance. Andy's chance likely would have come next year, luckily for him injuries gave it to him sooner. Same for Lashoff, though with all the questions on defense and so many young guys anyway, injuries may have been his only opportunity. Again, lucky for him, and maybe the team as well since now we have a decent 6/7 guy we didn't know we had. I guess that's the silver-lining on the injury cloud.

I think Tatar and Nyquist would have had a chance in training camp, though the addition of Brunner didn't help their cause. Bert and Sammy are certainly in the way, but both offer elements that the kids lack. Not a great chance, and maybe not the way I'd have done it, but I can't fault management for trying to remain competetive through a rebuild. Personally, I think they're both trade candidates. I think they're close enough to the NHL that we can safely conclude that neither of them is particularly special, and they're too similar to what we already have. We can try to trade them to address other weaknesses. That we haven't traded them yet is maybe a good thing. Our needs on defense don't seem quite as desperate as they did in the summer, while they have both been valuable injury replacements.

Over the next few years, I expect more kids to start trickling in and out while we try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Maybe some more stop-gaps depending on how well guys do; who stays and who goes. Likely to be frustrating, and we'll almost certainly let someone go that will turn out better than we thought. But so long as at least a handful work out well for us, we'll be in good shape once we find our next generation stars. No one's going to like the process, and the boards will be full of ideas for what could be or should have been done, some realistic some not so much. I can understand the impatience, and the thought that we should have started the rebuild sooner. But building takes time, as does decline. We need to be more patient.

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I'm not sure if I agree with people who've been saying that Z is "declining" over the years. Sure, his goal scoring ability is far lower than what it used to be, but his assists have gone up. And he's been leading the team in points the past 3 years, albeit he's played more games each season than Datsyuk did. Datsyuk had a broken hand and was forced to play less games. Sure. But to be honest guys, I would rather have a broken hand for one season then have back problems for 3. Zetterberg's has been leading in points for 3 years and he has been doing it through back problems. I'm not sure how many of us here have played some ice-hockey for local teams but don't you guys agree than back pains can seriously cause you to slow down? And to those of you have experienced it, you know very well as I do that it's not something you recover right away from and it's ALWAYS lurking around if you play a long season. Look closely at Z when he skates, he really does not look anything like he used to in the 08 season, his form is completely different. When he was younger he had more of a "bend" while he skated. If you look now, his plays more in an "erect" posture. Those are signs of someone who has a bad back. Z reminds me of Stevie a lot. He's playing hockey through injury. Not necessarily good for him in the long run but hey, give him credit.

I don't think we will be seeing Z able to produce 40 goals and 90 points unless we have another young talent on our team. Z has no way of sitting games out. The pressure is on him and if this continues, he will be aging out way sooner than he should be. Stevie Y was able to play until 40 because of the fact that he had young guys who could step up and take over the goal scoring and point producing for him (this was dats and zet when they were younger), Who does Zet have to fill in his shoes? Nobody... I mean look at Stevie, he had a year off for rest, came back and scored 18 goals and 51 points as a 38 year old as a 3rd line center... That's pretty damn impressive.

I played for about 20 years (obviously never made it pro), and in my 19th season, I was playing a holmstrom type role and screening/tipping on the PP. The defender at one point, spun me around with a shove and my teams defense-men took a slapper from point (mind you he had the hardest shot on our team) which hit me in the lower spine, fracturing a vertebrae. I had to have surgery that summer, and was able to come right back and play next season, but I was never the same. I was much slower, couldn't really skate with the jump i had before and, as you pointed out about Z, I had to skate more erect due to the lower back. The problems from my back (along with other injuries over the years) made me play a completely different way. It was so bad for me, that I had to stop playing after the 20th season because I was no longer effective in any capacity anymore. I'm just happy we still have a healthy enough Zetterberg to play and show us magic when he can.

He's past prime years , but as with Pav, when he turns it on, I'm still awed and impressed.

kickazz likes this

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.

Z and Dats have been abysmall with putting shots on goal! Sadly they get the best looks yet still missing net

This.

For every one of Pav's snipes, he misses the net completely another 20 times.

But, again, he isn't a goal scorer so we can't get too upset or surprised about that.

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