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TheDetroitRedWings

Wings to Keep Tootoo?

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I love the "Well player X wouldn't take liberties if we had a 6'3 235 pound guy who would break jaws." argument.

Really, the only people who are not going to take liberties because John Scott is on the roster are the guys unlikely to do it to begin with.

When Matt Cooke laid out Savard, wasn't Savard a member of the big bad Bruins, not the soft euro Wings?

Because John Scott is on Buffalo's roster does that mean no one will ever take a dirty shot on a Sabre player?

No it does not, in fact more than likely it will have no impact at all!

A guy like Raffi Torres is not sitting on the bench looking at the opponents bench thinking:

"Man I better not take a run at Bergeron, Thornton may knock my teeth out!"

Again, the league has changed, they are legislating fighting out of hockey.

Not because Hockey fans like you or me don't like it, but because some soccer mom somewhere doesn't want little Johnny to see it, Won't some one please think of the children.

But the Goons stop things from happening argument is BS, guys who take liberties will take them with or without a John Scott on your roster.

EDIT: BTW nice job of coming up with one incident in the last what 3 seasons where Z or D got "gooned" up, so the WIngs' need a guy on their roster to eat up 8 minutes a night doing nothing but being ready for the once in a three year event.

Good post.

I forget the year but Maguire from the Blues jumped Yzerman with Probert ON the ice.

Point being, if some idiot wants to run a Crosby, Z or Dats....they will, without a second thought.

the league knows the Wings are NOT a dirty team so an opposing team understands they will never have to worry about one of their stars getting sticked,boarded or cheapshotted by a Wing.

I say f*** the goon...give me some crazy unpredictable dude that nobody really knows what he will do. Thats the kind of player that will make ya think before ya act!

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"More likely" is a thoroughly relative term. It's entirely possible that they're more likely to make mistakes in that situation, but unlikely. And if they are, it's probably not by any appreciable amount.

The Wings have an admirable number of forecheckers, so I don't see your point.

Like when? Kronwall is one of the hardest hitters in the league, but I can't remember the last time this had an appreciable effect upon anything but the crowd and the guy who got hit.

Admirable is a good word to describe them, indeed.

I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game. Interesting.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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Admirable is a good word to describe them, indeed.

I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game. Interesting.

The DetroitRedWings including Holland are in for a rude awakening in the east. Like I said there is a reason why Montreal traded for and signed tough guys.

Also these guys are well liked by their teammates and coaches like Eakins already admitted, that they thought about guys like MacIntyre whenever he was on the ice. I don't like the anti tough style, puckpossion is nice as long as you are a powerhouse team but with diminishing skills it'boring.

There is a reason why fans are cheering for fights and bonecrushing hits, you think Orr, Thornton or Scott won't jump Kronwall after one of his hits? -sigh-

sent from a mobile device autocorrections errors are possible!

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Guest Crymson   
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I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game. Interesting.

Though "every night" is an exaggeration---Downey played 65 games and May only 40---it's true that people enjoyed them. However, enjoying having such a player is not the same as wanting one around, or feeling it necessary to have one around, or believing that the roster spot might not be better used on a more versatile player.

So no, it's not interesting.

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Guest Crymson   
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The DetroitRedWings including Holland are in for a rude awakening in the east. Like I said there is a reason why Montreal traded for and signed tough guys. Also these guys are well liked by their teammates and coaches like Eakins already admitted, that they thought about guys like MacIntyre whenever he was on the ice. I don't like the anti tough style, puckpossion is nice as long as you are a powerhouse team but with diminishing skills it'boring.

Again with this unfounded talk of the East being tougher. It isn't.

There is a reason why fans are cheering for fights and bonecrushing hits, you think Orr, Thornton or Scott won't jump Kronwall after one of his hits? -sigh-

Remember when Kronwall crushed both Briere and Voracek inside of a month and got beaten up afterward both times by the ultra-tough Flyers? I don't remember it, because it didn't happen that way. Instead, he got challenged afterward and chose not to answer the bell, and no fight came of it either time.

Also strange is this idea that none of the teams whose players Kronwall has hit have had an enforcer on the roster. Perhaps the thought is that because it was the West, the coach didn't have his shiny fighter go after Kronwall. Either way, it doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Crymson

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The DetroitRedWings including Holland are in for a rude awakening in the east. Like I said there is a reason why Montreal traded for and signed tough guys.Also these guys are well liked by their teammates and coaches like Eakins already admitted, that they thought about guys like MacIntyre whenever he was on the ice. I don't like the anti tough style, puckpossion is nice as long as you are a powerhouse team but with diminishing skills it'boring. There is a reason why fans are cheering for fights and bonecrushing hits, you think Orr, Thornton or Scott won't jump Kronwall after one of his hits? -sigh- sent from a mobile device autocorrections errors are possible!

This was my first thought when I heard about our move East. Watching the East last year and it seemed every great hit was immediately followed by the hitter getting jumped. Boston and Chara were embarrassing the way they did this!

I too worry about Kron because at least once, this will happen. I dont think he will fight. If he's smart he wont and if he does he will get hurt and this is where the enforcer argument enters in.

With a type of goon, At least the other team knows that their stars are in jeopardy of being run or battered if they jump Kron for a clean hit.

I dont know if there is a right or wrong side of this argument... Wait and see and if we need to change our game, theres always next year to start the retooling.

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Again with this unfounded talk of the East being tougher. It isn't.

Remember when Kronwall crushed both Briere and Voracek inside of a month and got beaten up afterward both times by the ultra-tough Flyers? I don't remember it, because it didn't happen that way. Instead, he got challenged afterward and chose not to answer the bell, and no fight came of it either time.

Also strange is this idea that none of the teams whose players Kronwall has hit have had an enforcer on the roster. Perhaps the thought is that because it was the West, the coach didn't have his shiny fighter go after Kronwall. Either way, it doesn't make any sense.

I take the words from actual players, coaches and GM's over these of people who think, Holland and this organization can't do anything wrong thanks.

Also facts are speaking a different language: this new division will features 6 of the top 10 teams in PIMs from last year.

Engelland, who is one of the best pound for pound enforcers in the game crushed Shaw and the next shift Scott came out flying (punching), he didn't ask if Engelland wanted to go he had to go, Engelland had no choice/chance at all and now imagine what will happen to a non-fighter like Kronwall?

People who have actually watched the East have seen guys getting jumped after hard but clean hits against starplayers or young ones thats a negotiatable fact. Bergervin isn't stupid he realized his team was too soft and he reacted, Mactavish did the same thing a few days ago and there are reasons behind those moves. I'll take a guy like MacIntyre, McGrattan, McLaren, Orr or Matt kassian over Tootoo 10 times out of 10 at least these guys do intimidate the enemy and prevent them from going crazy. Take Buffalo for example, Ott can be more of an agitator thanks to a guy like Scott, same goes for Montreal with the duo of Parros and Prust.

MacIntyre is usually that scary, so even extremely tough heavyweights are afraid to fight him, other coaches don't want him going after anybody so they bring in a clean game and don't go after starplayers.

If a guy like Orr jumps Zetterberg, Kronwall or Datsyuk what is there to fear? Oh yes the DetroitRedWings enforcer called "powerplay" which was - lets be honest - more of a gongshow than a powerplay without the perfect human, I am sure the other teams are extremely scared of that. I think, some people are still having that impression, that somehow the DetroitRedWings are immune to certain styles, they are NOW in the east not just playing a game here and there, now other teams know if they beat this team they might also get the tie-breaker so basically the games between DetroitRedWings versus team X now are meaning more...

Edited by frankgrimes

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I take the words from actual players, coaches and GM's over these of people who think, Holland and this organization can't do anything wrong thanks.

Also facts are speaking a different language: this new division will features 6 of the top 10 teams in PIMs from last year.

Engelland, who is one of the best pound for pound enforcers in the game crushed Shaw and the next shift Scott came out flying (punching), he didn't ask if Engelland wanted to go he had to go, Engelland had no choice/chance at all and now imagine what will happen to a non-fighter like Kronwall?

People who have actually watched the East have seen guys getting jumped after hard but clean hits against starplayers or young ones thats a negotiatable fact. Bergervin isn't stupid he realized his team was too soft and he reacted, Mactavish did the same thing a few days ago and there are reasons behind those moves. I'll take a guy like MacIntyre, McGrattan, McLaren, Orr or Matt kassian over Tootoo 10 times out of 10 at least these guys do intimidate the enemy and prevent them from going crazy. Take Buffalo for example, Ott can be more of an agitator thanks to a guy like Scott, same goes for Montreal with the duo of Parros and Prust.

MacIntyre is usually that scary, so even extremely tough heavyweights are afraid to fight him, other coaches don't want him going after anybody so they bring in a clean game and don't go after starplayers.

If a guy like Orr jumps Zetterberg, Kronwall or Datsyuk what is there to fear? Oh yes the DetroitRedWings enforcer called "powerplay" which was - lets be honest - more of a gongshow then a powerplay without the perfect human, I am sure the other teams are extremely scared of that. I think, some people are still having that impression, that somehow the DetroitRedWings are immune to certain styles, they are NOW in the east not just playing a game here and there, now other teams know if they beat this team they might also get the tie-breaker so basically the games between DetroitRedWings versus team X now are meaning more...

Honestly if a guy jumped Zetterberg or datsyuk and actually jumped him, not just shoved him around a little the league would suspend them. Its not the old league where the players settled all the disputes the league is slowly grandfathering out that way of dispute settling. If kronwall was to lay a big hit the only action that wouldnt' be dealt with by the league is the immediate scrum that always follows.

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Honestly if a guy jumped Zetterberg or datsyuk and actually jumped him, not just shoved him around a little the league would suspend them. Its not the old league where the players settled all the disputes the league is slowly grandfathering out that way of dispute settling. If kronwall was to lay a big hit the only action that wouldnt' be dealt with by the league is the immediate scrum that always follows.

Hasn't Datsyuk already fought Niedermayer and Perry, and almost fought Gary Roberts in the Finals, before the refs saved him?

I realize those guys aren't the MacIntyre's or McGrattans of the world, but Datsyuk still shouldn't be fighting anyone, since he's not a pesty player that gets into scrums, like say Crosby, who's been in several fights. I doubt Datsyuk would have to defend himself even against skill players if we had more toughness in the lineup for retribution.

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It's pretty obvious Holland and Babcock know we need fighters. Just look at the last few drafts, the players are bigger, tougher, and most of them have at least a small fight card. Also look at Babcock gushing over McKee. Tootoo is exactly what Detroit needs.

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I'd love if Detroit carried two fighers. Doubt that's going to happen anytime soon though. And notice I said fighter, implying they can also play hockey. Tootoo is great, I loved the signing a year ago, but I'd be thrilled if we had a real checking line for once.

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Admirable is a good word to describe them, indeed.

I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game. Interesting.

I thought that was why we signed Cleary...

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Hasn't Datsyuk already fought Niedermayer and Perry, and almost fought Gary Roberts in the Finals, before the refs saved him?

I realize those guys aren't the MacIntyre's or McGrattans of the world, but Datsyuk still shouldn't be fighting anyone, since he's not a pesty player that gets into scrums, like say Crosby, who's been in several fights. I doubt Datsyuk would have to defend himself even against skill players if we had more toughness in the lineup for retribution.

Datsyuk chose to fight Perry and chose to fight Roberts. He was not defending himself in either situation. And in the latter case, it was Pavel throwing punches and knocking down Roberts while the refs held him back. It would really be better if you did not distort the facts to support your argument.

I take the words from actual players, coaches and GM's over these of people who think, Holland and this organization can't do anything wrong thanks.

That would be that, if not for the fact that this supposed avalanche of evidence in favor of your position does not actually exist.

It's pretty obvious Holland and Babcock know we need fighters. Just look at the last few drafts, the players are bigger, tougher, and most of them have at least a small fight card. Also look at Babcock gushing over McKee. Tootoo is exactly what Detroit needs.

The guys you're referring to are able to play a role on the ice and fight. The former is more important than the latter, and the latter must be present in addition to the former rather than on its own. Because Tootoo can only really do the latter, he is certainly not what the Wings need, and that's why he won't be retained.

Edited by Crymson

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Hasn't Datsyuk already fought Niedermayer and Perry, and almost fought Gary Roberts in the Finals, before the refs saved him?

I realize those guys aren't the MacIntyre's or McGrattans of the world, but Datsyuk still shouldn't be fighting anyone, since he's not a pesty player that gets into scrums, like say Crosby, who's been in several fights. I doubt Datsyuk would have to defend himself even against skill players if we had more toughness in the lineup for retribution.

Datsyuk's had only 2 fights - That actually seems to show that he hasn't had to protect himself. I mean everyone seems to fight at some point even if they have "protection."

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Datsyuk chose to fight Perry and chose to fight Roberts. He was not defending himself in either situation. And in the latter case, it was Pavel throwing punches and knocking down Roberts while the refs held him back. It would really be better if you did not distort the facts to support your argument.

That would be that, if not for the fact that this supposed avalanche of evidence in favor of your position does not actually exist.

The guys you're referring to are able to play a role on the ice and fight. The former is more important than the latter, and the latter must be present in addition to the former rather than on its own. Because Tootoo can only really do the latter, he is certainly not what the Wings need, and that's why he won't be retained.

He just didn't want to back down. That doesn't mean he wanted to fight those guys or sought them out. More like they sought him out, thinking he's some soft Euro who won't harm them. You don't want star players taking the initiative to fight, or to be pushed around in any way. I'm not distorting anything.

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Datsyuk's had only 2 fights - That actually seems to show that he hasn't had to protect himself. I mean everyone seems to fight at some point even if they have "protection."

I'm still pissed he had to fight those fights. You don't want your star players taking those kind of chances, especially an inexperienced fighter.

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Exact why should a guy like Pasha have to fight? Crosby had had scrums but no real fights. I mean the move he pulled against Chara was hilarious even Chara laughed at it. Stars fighting other stars is acceptable but they shouldn't have to fight some experienced enforcers. Someone mentioned McKee well alongside Dekeyser and Tatar he is my favorite prospect. This guy is going to be an aabsolute force in a few years.

meanwhile it would be nice having someone to keep the other team honest, hoe about Peluso? He can play in a fourth line role and fight, the Jets waived him. I'd love to have Engelland there is just no way the Penguins are waiving him, after they waived MacIntyre.I

Oh yeah I am very sure enforcers are afraid of the Bergman and Shanahan rulings, if they can jump other starplayers without retailing. It should be like you are sending your tough guys on our stars your stars are going to get the payback next shift. Even Eakins my mentioned that in an interview that's on ice policy and or keeps the other team honest.

sent from a mobile device autocorrections errors are possible!

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I'm still pissed he had to fight those fights. You don't want your star players taking those kind of chances, especially an inexperienced fighter.

You are again warping the facts. He did not need to participate in those fights. He chose to do so. Everyone was surprised that he decided to fight Perry; and the affair with Roberts in the 2008 finals was part of a large scrum, one that began when Sykora decked Osgood. Do you just not remember these things?

He just didn't want to back down. That doesn't mean he wanted to fight those guys or sought them out. More like they sought him out, thinking he's some soft Euro who won't harm them. You don't want star players taking the initiative to fight, or to be pushed around in any way. I'm not distorting anything.

It's a tad pretentious to think that you know why he chose to get involved in those two donnybrooks, and your interpretations of those two situations deliberately fit the point you're trying to make. Needless to say, they also aren't accurate.

Besides, what are you implying could have happened differently? Were an enforcer on the roster, he'd not have been on the ice with Datsyuk in those situations. So, would Pavel have given a secret hand signal to have the guy leave the bench and do something? Perhaps he'd have skated away from Perry and asked the enforcer to beat him up on the next shift? Your argument makes no sense at all. In fact, your reference to the mini-fight with Roberts contravenes your own argument; Downey was on the roster at that time but was a healthy scratch, as his roster spot was far better used on more valuable players.

Indeed, rarely does any team ever give ice time to an enforcer in the playoffs, and that says it all. In the most important games, guys who can do nothing but fight don't really have a place. They don't have much of one in the regular season either these days.

Edited by Crymson

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