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Wings to Keep Tootoo?


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#41 GMRwings1983

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 05:36 PM

I said the same thing but some folks think that Miller and Eaves are superstars that can;t be replaced on the PK

 

They can be replaced easily on the PK.  They're not exactly a prime Maltby or Draper.  

 

In all honesty, any 4th liner is expendable, but on this roster, Tootoo is the only lower line player that can hit hard and drop the gloves.  


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#42 Crymson

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:54 PM

Humorously enough, this article was posted today. The author, who is now Yahoo's main hockey writer, wrote for the Detroit Free Press for a long time before taking his current job.



#43 GMRwings1983

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 09:00 PM

The Wings won whether they had enforcers on their roster or didn't.    

 

Also, I personally don't think of guys like MIller, Eaves or Emmerton as skill guys, nor is every fighter a mindless goon who can't play hockey.  Holland seems to have a very cut and dry view in that article.  


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#44 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 01:45 AM

The Wings won whether they had enforcers on their roster or didn't.    

 

Also, I personally don't think of guys like MIller, Eaves or Emmerton as skill guys, nor is every fighter a mindless goon who can't play hockey.  Holland seems to have a very cut and dry view in that article.  

 

As I've mentioned, the category of capable power forwards who both score and fight has been shrinking for the past 20 years, and is now almost gone. There were zero scoring forwards amongst the top 20 in fighting majors in 2013, and only two (Clarkson and Simmonds) in the top 30. Also almost extinct are quality defensemen who will drop the gloves. There were zero amongst the top 50 in fighting majors last season, with the first decent one (Kaleta) placing #52.

 

In general, most players who fight regularly are good for little else. Of the most prolific fighters last season (let's call it the top 25), only Nystrom was useful for anything beyond fisticuffs. In other words, the data disagrees with your assertion.

 

More, there has simply been less and less need for pure fighters as time has gone on and the game has become more refined, and most teams have found it fitting to use that roster spot for a more generally valuable player. There has also been steadily less need for the average player to drop the gloves at all.

 

I know you yearn for the old days where this particular category is concerned, but that period is gone and likely won't be coming back.


Edited by Crymson, 25 September 2013 - 01:59 AM.


#45 Opie

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:11 AM

The Wings won whether they had enforcers on their roster or didn't.    

 

Also, I personally don't think of guys like MIller, Eaves or Emmerton as skill guys, nor is every fighter a mindless goon who can't play hockey.  Holland seems to have a very cut and dry view in that article.  

 

See I read that as the opposite, I took that he was saying if he could get a Lucic type big body that also has skill he would, but there are very few legit Power Forwards in this league.


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#46 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

Humorously enough, this article was posted today. The author, who is now Yahoo's main hockey writer, wrote for the Detroit Free Press for a long time before taking his current job.

Good read, however, it fails to mention a CRITICAL component of the TOR/BUF incident. What happens the next time they play? Is John Scott going to be sat because BUF wants to avoid fights? No, if he is not in the minors he will play. He will still be a deterrent from TOR players hacking and whacking BUF skill guys. And he will probably have to fight a TOR enforcers.

 

So when a goon goes and shoulders Z in the head, pops Datsyuk in the mouth, cross-checks Alfredsson in the face, no one will be there to retaliate/answer the bell. Tootoo is what we have that can manage any kind of challenge. He is small and a light-heavyweight at best, but he can run people and isn't afraid to jump up and smack Scott in the mouth. If we lose him, we are left with Abdelkader (who at best can grab a jersey and fall down), Ericsson (who is dangerously close to pulling a Lilja everytime he fights someone who CAN fight), and Bert (too old, but holds his own against agitators like Phanny and Torres, NOT fighters).


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It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#47 Opie

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:35 AM

Good read, however, it fails to mention a CRITICAL component of the TOR/BUF incident. What happens the next time they play? Is John Scott going to be sat because BUF wants to avoid fights? No, if he is not in the minors he will play. He will still be a deterrent from TOR players hacking and whacking BUF skill guys. And he will probably have to fight a TOR enforcers.

 

So when a goon goes and shoulders Z in the head, pops Datsyuk in the mouth, cross-checks Alfredsson in the face, no one will be there to retaliate/answer the bell. Tootoo is what we have that can manage any kind of challenge. He is small and a light-heavyweight at best, but he can run people and isn't afraid to jump up and smack Scott in the mouth. If we lose him, we are left with Abdelkader (who at best can grab a jersey and fall down), Ericsson (who is dangerously close to pulling a Lilja everytime he fights someone who CAN fight), and Bert (too old, but holds his own against agitators like Phanny and Torres, NOT fighters).

 

When was the last time Z or D got "popped" in the mouth?

When has getting punched in the face ever stopped anyone from slashing or hacking.

In your own example, Phil Kessel continued to hack away at John Scott, that is a non enforcer/goon hacking away at a heavy. Taking huge swings by the way! (his bs suspension of 3 fake games is another topic for another day)

 

So where is your deterrent again?

 

Listen I would prefer the players policed themselves like they used to, it forces them to respect each other. However rules have changed that, and the rules they continue to put in place change it even more.

 

The new Helmet rule is exhibit A in this case.

 

Not only is fighting potentially the same 17 minutes(5 for fighting, 2 for instigating, 2 for 3rd man in, 10 min misconduct) in PIMs it could have been before but now they are tacking on another 2 min possibility, for doing the honorable thing!

 

The league is trying to usher out fighting in a less publicize way the NFL is trying to legislate head hits out of the game.

 

IF John Scott Crosschecks Dats in the face, do you really think nothing will happen, that no one will try to exact revenge (which is all you are looking for anyway), that the league will not suspend him?

 

Dats is more likely to get a concussion from a hit or slew foot than he is to get one from being crosschecked in the face. Because in the history of the league you can count violent crosschecks to the face on your hands!


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#48 StormJH1

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:48 AM

 

As I've mentioned, the category of capable power forwards who both score and fight has been shrinking for the past 20 years, and is now almost gone. There were zero scoring forwards amongst the top 20 in fighting majors in 2013, and only two (Clarkson and Simmonds) in the top 30. Also almost extinct are quality defensemen who will drop the gloves. There were zero amongst the top 50 in fighting majors last season, with the first decent one (Kaleta) placing #52.

 

In general, most players who fight regularly are good for little else. Of the most prolific fighters last season (let's call it the top 25), only Nystrom was useful for anything beyond fisticuffs. In other words, the data disagrees with your assertion.

 

More, there has simply been less and less need for pure fighters as time has gone on and the game has become more refined, and most teams have found it fitting to use that roster spot for a more generally valuable player. There has also been steadily less need for the average player to drop the gloves at all.

 

I know you yearn for the old days where this particular category is concerned, but that period is gone and likely won't be coming back.

I'd "like" this post 5 times if I could!  Of course, with Red Wings fans, it's mostly preaching to the converted.

 

Even if you believed that a John Scott-level enforcer actually had some redeemable value on an NHL team (which I don't), Jordin Tootoo isn't that guy.  He's actually more of a pest and agitator that elevates the level of chippiness in any game he plays in.  Tootoo running guys behind the play and generally being annoying encourages other teams to retaliate with cheap shots against all Detroit players, as opposed to just playing hockey.  And yet, some fans still tell themselves that you need Tootoo to fight people after a cheap shot has already occurred, because that somehow has "deterrent" effect.  Never bought it.



#49 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:08 PM

I'd "like" this post 5 times if I could!  Of course, with Red Wings fans, it's mostly preaching to the converted.

 

Even if you believed that a John Scott-level enforcer actually had some redeemable value on an NHL team (which I don't), Jordin Tootoo isn't that guy.  He's actually more of a pest and agitator that elevates the level of chippiness in any game he plays in.  Tootoo running guys behind the play and generally being annoying encourages other teams to retaliate with cheap shots against all Detroit players, as opposed to just playing hockey.  And yet, some fans still tell themselves that you need Tootoo to fight people after a cheap shot has already occurred, because that somehow has "deterrent" effect.  Never bought it.

When was the last time you seen tootoo run someone behind the play? And explain to me the difference between he and Helm.  I think we seen the perfect example why we need a player like Tootoo on the ice in the Chicago playoff series when they started playing really chippy against us. I feel real strong as that being one of the main reason why Detroit was thrown off of their game and lost that series. We had no one to stand up to the Bickell's and the likes on Chicago. That's why yeah not even I want a "goon" on our team because I feel the same way we can play without them but we do need players like tootoo that hit,not afraid to drop the gloves with just about anyone,has heart and can even chip in on offense. It may not be a total deterrent which I have never said he was but it does keep the players he is on the ice honest to a point.


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#50 maverick918

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:24 PM

I like this thread. So many different views on Tootoo. 

 

Personally I think if worked on his fore-checking ability (which it seems so far he has). He could be a good player to go to the hard areas and cause turnovers / mistakes for the other team. He is a player that doesn't always do what you expect him to do, which is something wings were missing before they signed him.

 

I agree that he is not an enforcer and wont "Protect" our skill players like an enforcer does.

 

Whatever happens he is still fun to watch.



#51 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:31 PM

Good read, however, it fails to mention a CRITICAL component of the TOR/BUF incident. What happens the next time they play? Is John Scott going to be sat because BUF wants to avoid fights? No, if he is not in the minors he will play. He will still be a deterrent from TOR players hacking and whacking BUF skill guys. And he will probably have to fight a TOR enforcers.

 

So when a goon goes and shoulders Z in the head, pops Datsyuk in the mouth, cross-checks Alfredsson in the face, no one will be there to retaliate/answer the bell. Tootoo is what we have that can manage any kind of challenge. He is small and a light-heavyweight at best, but he can run people and isn't afraid to jump up and smack Scott in the mouth. If we lose him, we are left with Abdelkader (who at best can grab a jersey and fall down), Ericsson (who is dangerously close to pulling a Lilja everytime he fights someone who CAN fight), and Bert (too old, but holds his own against agitators like Phanny and Torres, NOT fighters).

 

And how often has that happened in recent memory, whether against teams from the west or teams from the new conference? Eh? I don't remember any instances. Some people are acting as if the eastern conference is a new, unknown universe, and that gameplay will be a paradigm shift away from what it is in the western conference. That just ain't so, and it ignores the fact that the Wings have regularly played against eastern conference teams every season but the last.



#52 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

 

And how often has that happened in recent memory, whether against teams from the west or teams from the new conference? Eh? I don't remember any instances. Some people are acting as if the eastern conference is a new, unknown universe, and that gameplay will be a paradigm shift away from what it is in the western conference. That just ain't so, and it ignores the fact that the Wings have regularly played against eastern conference teams every season but the last.

When is the last time you have heard we had a legitimate rival team in the East or that one was even starting to get that way with the wings? I think it does matter to a point what side you are playing on since it seems that when you play teams in your same conference they play harder against their own because of how the playoffs work on who gets in and who doesn't. From what I remember and have seen the East has been known for more physical teams/play then what the west has had so I can totally see why we would need to keep players like Tootoo even more now that we are in the East.


Edited by hillbillywingsfan, 25 September 2013 - 03:47 PM.

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#53 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:54 PM



When is the last time you have heard we had a legitimate rival team in the East or that one was even starting to get that way with the wings? I think it does matter to a point what side you are playing on since it seems that when you play teams in your same conference they play harder against their own because of how the playoffs work on who gets in and who doesn't. From what I remember and have seen the East has been known for more physical teams/play then what the west has had so I can totally see why we would need to keep players like Tootoo even more now that we are in the East.

 

This is a strange notion, one that doesn't agree with the facts. For fun, I performed and posted a data-based analysis on this topic a few months ago. There was no significant difference (indeed, the gap was miniscule) between the West and the East in terms of fights and hits. There are, beyond this, pretty basic reasons why no real variance in play exists between the two conferences: all of those involved in the matter are professional hockey players; there are (obviously) no environmental differences between the conferences that would account for such a disparity; many (perhaps most) of these players have resided in both conferences throughout their careers; and so on. Those with the most influence over the degree of physicality in play are general managers---in player selection---and coaches---in play direction---both of whom see regular turnover, and very many of whom have served in both conferences.

 

The post in question is here.


Edited by Crymson, 25 September 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#54 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 04:16 PM

 

This is a strange notion, one that doesn't agree with the facts. For fun, I performed and posted a data-based analysis on this topic a few months ago. There was no significant difference (indeed, the gap was miniscule) between the West and the East in terms of fights and hits. There are, beyond this, pretty basic reasons why no real variance in play exists between the two conferences: all of those involved in the matter are professional hockey players; there are (obviously) no environmental differences between the conferences that would account for such a disparity; many (perhaps most) of these players have resided in both conferences throughout their careers; and so on. Those with the most influence over the degree of physicality in play are general managers---in player selection---and coaches---in play direction---both of whom see regular turnover, and very many of whom have served in both conferences.

 

The post in question is here.

I would be curious to see how that would turn out if you added PIM as one of the stats as well.


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#55 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 05:19 PM

 

When was the last time Z or D got "popped" in the mouth?

When has getting punched in the face ever stopped anyone from slashing or hacking.

In your own example, Phil Kessel continued to hack away at John Scott, that is a non enforcer/goon hacking away at a heavy. Taking huge swings by the way! (his bs suspension of 3 fake games is another topic for another day)

 

So where is your deterrent again?

 

Listen I would prefer the players policed themselves like they used to, it forces them to respect each other. However rules have changed that, and the rules they continue to put in place change it even more.

 

The new Helmet rule is exhibit A in this case.

 

Not only is fighting potentially the same 17 minutes(5 for fighting, 2 for instigating, 2 for 3rd man in, 10 min misconduct) in PIMs it could have been before but now they are tacking on another 2 min possibility, for doing the honorable thing!

 

The league is trying to usher out fighting in a less publicize way the NFL is trying to legislate head hits out of the game.

 

IF John Scott Crosschecks Dats in the face, do you really think nothing will happen, that no one will try to exact revenge (which is all you are looking for anyway), that the league will not suspend him?

 

Dats is more likely to get a concussion from a hit or slew foot than he is to get one from being crosschecked in the face. Because in the history of the league you can count violent crosschecks to the face on your hands!

 

Shea Weber smacking Hank's head into the boards wasn't enough?

 

How about Shaw and Bickell constantly going after our stars during scrums and whistles.  Think they'd do that with a MacIntyre on the bench watching?  I wouldn't if I was them.

 

I've said this before, if I'm a pest or fake tough guy playing in the NHL, I'd love to play against a team like the Wings, because I'd constantly harass Zetterberg and Datsyuk after whistles, get up in their face, try to get them off their game.  Why?  Because I'd know nobody would do s*** to me.  

 

At the same time, I'd be hesitant to go after star players on the Bruins or Senators, because they have tough guys all over the roster.  


Edited by GMRwings1983, 25 September 2013 - 05:25 PM.

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#56 uk_redwing

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 05:33 PM

 

Shea Weber smacking Hank's head into the boards wasn't enough?

 

My very first thought when that question was asked! Are our memories really that short?


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#57 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 05:41 PM

 

My very first thought when that question was asked! Are our memories really that short?

 

But Zetterberg didn't get injured, so everything's alright.

 

:rolleyes:


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#58 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 06:07 PM

 

But Zetterberg didn't get injured, so everything's alright.

 

:rolleyes:

I don't know that anyone would've prevented it, but it was sad when a 38 year old with a bad back is the one to drop the gloves with Weber next time the teams played.  

 

Good on Bert but doing it, but jeez.

 

 

Bert fighting SOB twice in the same game is a good example of how sticking up for yourself can change the tone of the game.  They were running guys all game until that point. 



#59 SensViking

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 06:47 PM

I only post this link tongue in cheek because of all the cross check to the face comments....

 

http://blogs.thescor...inaldo-in-face/



#60 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

 

Shea Weber smacking Hank's head into the boards wasn't enough?

 

 

If you're stooping to that as your evidence, then you're truly short on material. Your argument is that fighters are needed to prevent other players from physically abusing (or, in your words, "gooning up")a team's skill players. The incident in question took place at the very end of a game, and occurred because Weber lost his temper. It was neither a calculated act of abuse nor something that having a fighter on the team would have prevented.

 

I would be curious to see how that would turn out if you added PIM as one of the stats as well.

 

The majority of penalties arise from mundane infractions such as interference, hooking, tripping, high sticking, and the sort. Only a minority transpire as the result of roughing, boarding, and other penalties of the sort. As such, quantity of penalty minutes is not in any fashion an accurate measure of physical play.







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