gdt 10/5 GDT : Red Wings 1 at Bruins 4

[GoWings1905 2,694]

People are on Weiss after three games, but sat through many years waiting for Val Filppula's "potential"? I think Weiss probably deserves a little more time before a negative judgment.

[Guest mjtm77]

RE: Weiss, From 7/5:

"I'm on board with the people aligning with this style of thinking. I just don't understand how you give nearly $5M to a guy that has only performed exceptionally well when flanked by really good wingers (Booth/Horton). Even then, he isn't much of a two-way player, and isn't very good in the faceoff circle (although, I will admit, he's finally reached 50% over the past two years). I suppose I would be okay with the money if it was over three years and not five, but I think this signing will turn out to be a move that fans point back to in a couple of years and wonder why the Red Wings jumped the gun.

I may very well be wrong. In fact, as a fan of the team, I WANT to be wrong. But when I hang up the sweater and look at this objectively... I think it has all of the makings of the subject featured in another popular thread: an overreaction. I think the Red Wings jumped the gun and way overpaid in both years and dollars for a guy in a limited pool. If it was $5.9 over two years... fine. But $4.9 over 5? Not a fan."

And I stand by what I said. This guy will not ever take over for Datsyuk, nor Zetterberg. He will not be a true #1 center, nor will he be so dominant on the second line that you said, "DEFINITELY worth $5mil/yr".

When you look at what Tyler Kennedy or Matt Cullen signed for, it makes you shake your head. Here's guys that can play the PK and would also be a physical presence next to Zetterberg. Look at Tyler Bozak playing next to Kessel. Think that couldn't be Zetterberg instead? He signed for less money and he's 2 1/2 years younger.

Instead, you've got players like Jarnkrok and Sheahan coming through the ranks- and quickly- yet you commit $5/yr to a guy who will never be better than a #2C. Irrational decision in a weak market. I think Jarnkrok tops out as a #2 Center and a PP guy while Sheahan settles in at #3 Center and a lead PK guy. So in three years (when I think they'll be ready to assume these roles), do you push Weiss out via trade? Cut him? Keep him and put him at #1? Move Jarnkrok and Sheahan down?

It's just asinine to think that tying that much money up in a guy for five years is a good idea when due to previously-sustained injuries and age he's likely to be declining. The only players signed for more than four years include Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard- three of the top four leaders. The only other player in that group is Franzen (and I think he's amnestied this offseason). Do you really see him as one of the top four players on the team? The only skaters making more money than Weiss are Zetterberg and Datsyuk-- he's making more than Kronwall will.

Like I said, over-payment for an average 2nd-line center. I hope I'm wrong, because I'm a fan of the Detroit Red Wings and he is a player on the team, but man... the move, from an objective point of view, makes you scratch your head.

People complain about Filppula only averaging .52 points per game over his career... Weiss only averaged .6 points per game. And he was running top minutes for quite some time. Weiss averaged a goal every five games (.22) while Filppula averaged a goal every five games (.21)... Weiss has averaged 1:45/gm more than Fippula over 480+ games... that's a LOT more time on the ice, when it is all said and done. +/- = -17 for Weiss's career with just two seasons over 10+... and the only other positive year was 2011-2012 @ +5. Filppula = +44 with the opposite- just three season with a NEGATIVE +/- (-4, -4, and -1). Compare that to Weiss who has seven seasons in the negative... wow.

And, yes, it has to do with the team around them, but Weiss was also +12 more than any other player ON THE POWER PLAY during his best season (+19) with playing only on 14.5% of the PK. So he takes advantage of not playing on the PK while also playing on the PP.

But... you all wanted to run Filppula out of town? Dude, the Red Wings didn't replace him with anyone significantly better....

Only time will tell on Weiss dude. we are only 3 games in!!!! But as it stands the second line looks like dog s***. HUGE disappointment so far...

[Dabura 12,232]

People are on Weiss after three games, but sat through many years waiting for Val Filppula's "potential"? I think Weiss probably deserves a little more time before a negative judgment.

Seriously.

Look, I hate our team as much as the next guy. But it's been three f****** games. How long did Flip have? Forever? C'mon.

We all know Weiss is a good player, quite possibly even a better player than Flip. How can we possibly make that call? Because Weiss consistently put up better numbers on a consistently craptastic Panthers team, whereas Flip consistently had the best "supporting cast" a guy could ask for yet he still managed to consistently disappoint.

Again, Weiss has had all of three games to gel. And to his credit, he hasn't looked terrible. Maybe not the second coming of Shanahan circa '96-'97, but oh well.

[Dabura 12,232]

I didn't realize the two were that close PPG-wise. I was referring more to sheer points totals, though (e.g. Flip's only registered over, what was it, forty points once thus far?)

Both Flip and Weiss are good. Neither is bad. Neither will blow you away. But I do think this team, as it stands, needs a Weiss more than it needs a Flip. I also think trashing Weiss after all of three games is incredibly lame, especially if said trashing leans heavily on the tired subject of Valtteri Filppula's Potential (capital P!)

I do feel Weiss ultimately has sort of "done more with less," making a name for himself without the aid of, well, the Detroit Red Wings. I realize Weiss got the "star treatment" down in Florida, but even so, if I had to call one of him and Flip an overall disappointment, I think I'd choose Flip. (I'm not saying a case couldn't be made for Weiss being more of a disappointment (see: being picked, what was it, fourth overall?))

Whoa! Foligno almost took Flip's head off just now.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Dabura

[_SP_ 129]

I didn't realize the two were that close PPG-wise. I was referring more to sheer points totals, though (e.g. Flip's only registered over, what was it, forty points once thus far?)

Both Flip and Weiss are good. Neither is bad. Neither will blow you away. But I do think this team, as it stands, needs a Weiss more than it needs a Flip. I also think trashing Weiss after all of three games is incredibly lame, especially if said trashing leans heavily on the tired subject of Valtteri Filppula's Potential (capital P!)

I do feel Weiss ultimately has sort of "done more with less," making a name for himself without the aid of, well, the Detroit Red Wings. I realize Weiss got the "star treatment" down in Florida, but even so, if I had to call one of him and Flip an overall disappointment, I think I'd choose Flip. (I'm not saying a case couldn't be made for Weiss being more of a disappointment (see: being picked, what was it, fourth overall?))

Whoa! Foligno almost took Flip's head off just now.

I think you're missing my point, although it may not be clear: I didn't like Filppula. However, that doesn't mean I like Weiss simply for the fact that he's the replacement. I think he's a replacement-level player, but they were BOTH given SIGNIFICANTLY overvalued contracts. That's my issue.

Also, talking about point totals, Weiss came into the league in 2002, while Filppula came into the league in 2006. Think about that for a second. I mean, of course Weiss is going to have a higher point total- he has logged just under four THOUSAND more minutes.

Now, knowing this, lets look at even strength stats:

Stephen Weiss ES GoalsPG = .143; ES AssistsPG = .230... ES PointsPG = .373, or three points every eight games.

Valtteri Filppula ES GoalsPG = .173; ES AssistsPG = .253.... ES PointsPG = .426, or three points every seven games.

Like I said, Weiss makes up his stats on the Power Play, and always has. He's too small to do any better 5-on-5. He operates best in space, not the kind of contract you give to an undersized, 2nd center.

Edited October 9, 2013 by _SP_

[Dabura 12,232]

I don't mean cumulative point totals - I mean "In x season, Weiss registered [insert total] and Filppula registered [insert total]."

The only thing I've really taken issue with here - and this is the reason I decided to enter this conversation (admittedly, without having read your posts) (I mostly just wanted to agree with something GoWings1905 had said) (...which I think he said in response to you) (...so I guess that's why it looks like I'm in total disagreement with you, when that's not necessarily the case) - is the notion that Weiss sucks and Flip is awesome.

I've been intoxicated most of the day, and I'm only going to be more so as the night deepens. So if I disagree with someone, whether it's in one or two or a thousand degrees of separation or whatever, it's probably nothing to worry about.

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

:lol: The sheer amount of parentheses made me giggle.

That's not my intentions at all. I never liked Filppula... but, when you sober up a bit (read: a lot... there's a lot of stats and math), it definitely speaks to the fact that Weiss is not worth his contract and will hurt this team down the road- in three years or less.

More worth it than Flip would have been

I'd recommend not quoting entire posts without adding significant input...

Uhh, I just showed you that Weiss has averaged .1 more points per game than Flip, while playing in significantly more minutes over his career. If you take his points per minute it is .033.... Flip's is .032.... dude, they are NOT that far off. And who's to say that the "supporting cast" on the Panthers' top line was consistently worse than the Red Wings' second line? I mean, Weiss played on some pretty good teams... He played on four teams with 85+ points and two teams with 72+ points. All four teams with 85+ points were teams with winning records.

The Panthers weren't AWFUL. During eight of the last ten years (not counting lockout seasons), they've finished with more goals over the entire season than multiple playoff teams three times and within 6 total goals of multiple playoff teams three other times. That speaks towards poor overall team defense and goaltending. It says nothing about a lack of scoring- and that's what you're arguing, player points (Goals+Assists)

Numbers, numbers, numbers... Weiss has been average (if that's what you're calling Flip) on offense, even while playing on fairly decent scoring teams- teams scoring enough to make the playoffs.

We know his defense is suspect and he is one of those offense-oriented players... people didn't want to give Flip even three million, but they think Weiss has really done more to warrant $5mil/yr?

Filppula career = .52 g/g

Weiss = .6 g/g

5 mil for Weiss is better than 5 mil for filppula

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Weiss was the ideal replacement for Fil. Why we are arguing this, I don't know.

[Nev 1,085]

This is how bad it is: Flip is better than Weiss on defense. Weiss is marginally better than Flip on the offensive end, at best. But the Red Wings shoved him out the door and didn't replace him with anyone significantly better- and for five freakin' million dollars per year. That's a LOT for an average player, no?

Unrestricted Free Agents are overpaid period. Look around the league at the contracts that were handed out this summer. I've said it before, UFA's are as overpaid as RFA's are underpaid, its just the way the economic system works in the NHL.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Fil wanted $5 million, and Kenny wasn't going to pay him that, and no sensible armchair-gm Red Wings fan would have either.

[matthewdanna 143]

This Fil vs Weiss/Babs is an idiot/the sky is falling crap makes me laugh... good times.

We should have traded for Hertl because he's on pace for 164 goals this year... what was Holland thinking?

[RyanBarnes! 293]

In regard to the Filppula vs Weiss debate I think there are important aspects that will not show in the stats. I personally feel that Weiss is an upgrade because he crashes the net while Filppula circled away from the net. This will potentially make a huge difference in the post season when the game is more defensive.