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Babcock's Job?


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#21 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:57 AM

Unfortunately there is a popular myth that Mike Babcock is the best coach in the league even though there is no evidence to support the claim. Just because he coaches the Canadian Olympic team he somehow is the best coach in hockey (that is the usual response).

 

No one should ever have a safe job in sports. If you lose when you are expected to win (in the Wings case losing would be not making the playoffs) you should be replaced by someone who can do the job better or fix your mistakes.

 

It is partially Ken Holland's fault. He signs the players, he negotiates with FA's and current dead weight players to keep them on the team and take roster spots away from guys like Eaves, Tootoo, Nyquist, and Jurco.

 

When Ken Holland retires and is replaced with someone who doesn't have the same love for Babcock (looking at you Stevie) then he will be more likely to be fired (if he screws up). But for now, short of missing the playoffs, Babcock being fired isn't a likely scenario.


Edited by Wings_Dynasty, 20 December 2013 - 12:02 PM.

"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#22 Euro_Twins

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:14 PM

Unfortunately there is a popular myth that Mike Babcock is the best coach in the league even though there is no evidence to support the claim. Just because he coaches the Canadian Olympic team he somehow is the best coach in hockey (that is the usual response).
 
No one should ever have a safe job in sports. If you lose when you are expected to win (in the Wings case losing would be not making the playoffs) you should be replaced by someone who can do the job better or fix your mistakes.
 
It is partially Ken Holland's fault. He signs the players, he negotiates with FA's and current dead weight players to keep them on the team and take roster spots away from guys like Eaves, Tootoo, Nyquist, and Jurco.
 
When Ken Holland retires and is replaced with someone who doesn't have the same love for Babcock (looking at you Stevie) then he will be more likely to be fired (if he screws up). But for now, short of missing the playoffs, Babcock being fired isn't a likely scenario.


In his tenure as an nhl coach he has more wins then any other coach, what more do you need for proof that he is the best nhl coach?

#23 frankgrimes

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:21 PM

Unfortunately there is a popular myth that Mike Babcock is the best coach in the league even though there is no evidence to support the claim. Just because he coaches the Canadian Olympic team he somehow is the best coach in hockey (that is the usual response).

 

No one should ever have a safe job in sports. If you lose when you are expected to win (in the Wings case losing would be not making the playoffs) you should be replaced by someone who can do the job better or fix your mistakes.

 

It is partially Ken Holland's fault. He signs the players, he negotiates with FA's and current dead weight players to keep them on the team and take roster spots away from guys like Eaves, Tootoo, Nyquist, and Jurco.

 

When Ken Holland retires and is replaced with someone who doesn't have the same love for Babcock (looking at you Stevie) then he will be more likely to be fired (if he screws up). But for now, short of missing the playoffs, Babcock being fired isn't a likely scenario.

 

Stanley Cup winning coach

Olympian gold medal coach in his own country

more wins than any other coach

 

As for Kennys replacement I pray it will be Chiarelli, Shero or my favorite obviously Stevo Y :)


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#24 uk_redwing

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:38 PM

Even though they are both to varying degrees overrated, I'd rather lose Ken Holland than Mike Babcock any day.


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#25 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:43 PM

... Just because he coaches the Canadian Olympic team he somehow is the best coach in hockey (that is the usual response).

vancouver-2010-gold-medal.jpg

 

Exhibit "A".


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#26 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:46 PM

Others have already pointed out the sound evidence that Babcock is one of if not the best coaches in the league.  And that's what it comes down to for me.  In terms of replacing him, I don't think there's a clear candidate that's better. 

 

Holland has been the most disappointing these last few seasons, not Babcock. 



#27 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:56 PM

Some people have a difficult time in realizing when it's time to retire.

It's a complex that can be complex.


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- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#28 frankgrimes

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:00 PM

Others have already pointed out the sound evidence that Babcock is one of if not the best coaches in the league.  And that's what it comes down to for me.  In terms of replacing him, I don't think there's a clear candidate that's better. 

 

Holland has been the most disappointing these last few seasons, not Babcock. 

 

Agreed, given their near endless resources the best owner in all of sports has provided, Kenny could and should have done a better job. Also I love the way Chiarelli is building his teams, Shero seems to have an eye for adding valuable complementary players and well Stevo Y rebuild the Tampa Bay Lighting without much resources.


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#29 Playmaker

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:02 PM

I don't really think Yzerman has proven himself as a GM.  I don't think Shero has done anything all that impressive Chiarelli has turned the Bruins around and made some good deals, but Boston hasn't won any more than Detroit has.

 

And for the record, Stevo, is the Jackass guy.  Yzerman is Steve or Stevie, Stephen to his mommy or just the Captain.  Had to get that off my chest.


Edited by Playmaker, 20 December 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#30 kipwinger

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:11 PM

I mean, as far as winning goes Quenneville has fewer wins but more cups.  So you can say it's a wash, or you can say Babcock is better because he wins more often, or you can say Quenneville is better because he wins more often when it matters. 

 

Personally, I think guys who do more with less are the better coaches.  Dave Tippett has missed the playoffs ONCE in a coaching career that has included Dallas, LA (before and causing their recent ascent), and Phoenix.  He's never had a Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lidstrom.  Hell he's hardly had a Rafalski or Franzen.  Barry Trotz, same deal.  These guys are good with no resources, give them as much support as Babs gets and they rule the roost, but that's just me.  I think of them like I think of Ron Gardenhire in baseball, a lot with a little.


Edited by kipwinger, 20 December 2013 - 02:12 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:36 PM

I mean, as far as winning goes Quenneville has fewer wins but more cups.  So you can say it's a wash, or you can say Babcock is better because he wins more often, or you can say Quenneville is better because he wins more often when it matters. 

 

Personally, I think guys who do more with less are the better coaches.  Dave Tippett has missed the playoffs ONCE in a coaching career that has included Dallas, LA (before and causing their recent ascent), and Phoenix.  He's never had a Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lidstrom.  Hell he's hardly had a Rafalski or Franzen.  Barry Trotz, same deal.  These guys are good with no resources, give them as much support as Babs gets and they rule the roost, but that's just me.  I think of them like I think of Ron Gardenhire in baseball, a lot with a little.

 

I wouldn't say Quenneville is a wash with Babcock.  He has more Cups but with two powerhouse teams.  Babcock has been to the finals three times with very different teams.  There's no way I'd want Quenneville over Babs. 

 

I think Tippet is a good coach, evidenced by what he's done in Phoenix.  But he was an assistant with the Kings, not head coach. And it was in 2002, well before their ascent.  The coaches most responsible for the Kings turnaround were Terry Murray and Darryl Sutter.  

 

 If forced to pick a coach other than Babcock I'd definitely go with Tippet or Trotz before Quenneville. 



#32 kipwinger

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:43 PM

 

I wouldn't say Quenneville is a wash with Babcock.  He has more Cups but with two powerhouse teams.  Babcock has been to the finals three times with very different teams.  There's no way I'd want Quenneville over Babs. 

 

I think Tippet is a good coach, evidenced by what he's done in Phoenix.  But he was an assistant with the Kings, not head coach. And it was in 2002, well before their ascent.  The coaches most responsible for the Kings turnaround were Terry Murray and Darryl Sutter.  

 

 If forced to pick a coach other than Babcock I'd definitely go with Tippet or Trotz before Quenneville. 

 

I agree with you on preferring Tippett or Trotz.  But I don't think Quenneville's teams were any better or worse than Babs.  Sure Quenneville has Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, and Keith.  But Babs had Pronger, Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Selanne, Perry, Kunitz, Datsyuk, Z, Franzen, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Hossa, Osgood (some people will argue but he's a hall of famer).  Babs has by no means had inferior talent to Quenneville.  Tippett and Trotz, of course, both have.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#33 rick zombo

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:49 PM

 

I agree with you on preferring Tippett or Trotz.  But I don't think Quenneville's teams were any better or worse than Babs.  Sure Quenneville has Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, and Keith.  But Babs had Pronger, Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Selanne, Perry, Kunitz, Datsyuk, Z, Franzen, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Hossa, Osgood (some people will argue but he's a hall of famer).  Babs has by no means had inferior talent to Quenneville.  Tippett and Trotz, of course, both have.

 

Carlyle had those guys.

 

Babs had Giggy, Kariya and mostly a bunch of plugs.


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#34 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:52 PM

 

Carlyle had those guys.

 

Babs had Giggy, Kariya and mostly a bunch of plugs.

 

Exactly.   He didn't have Selanne either and the Niedermayer he had was Rob, not Scott.

 

When you look down the roster it's surprising how average that Ducks team was, other than Giguere. 



#35 kipwinger

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:54 PM

 

Carlyle had those guys.

 

Babs had Giggy, Kariya and mostly a bunch of plugs.

 

You're totally right, I'm wrong.  I have no idea why I was thinking he coached them in 2007 when I watched him coach us in the series against them in 2007.  I concede on the Ducks front, but I still believe Babs' 2008 and 2009 Red Wings rosters were as good as anything Quenneville has had.


 

Exactly.  

 

When you look down the roster it's surprising how average that Ducks team was, other than Giguere. 

 

As noted above, you guys are totally right on this one.

 

Edit:  Just looked at that 2003 Ducks roster.  How the hell did they ever make it to the finals?  J.S. Giguere must still have fingernail imprints on his ears from the rest of that team jumping on his back and grabbing hold.


Edited by kipwinger, 20 December 2013 - 02:57 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#36 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:36 PM

In his tenure as an nhl coach he has more wins then any other coach, what more do you need for proof that he is the best nhl coach?

Quennville, Trotz, Ruff, Hitchcock, and Sutter all have more wins. Granted they have been in the league longer as head coaches but I think that your point was that wins=success? But his winning percentage under the Wings and his overall career is lower than 3 other coaches in both categories. So going by wins solely with the Wings and wins overall, he is not the best coach in the NHL. According to wins and time, Dan Bylsma is the top coach. And he has as many Cups.  

 

 

Stanley Cup winning coach

Olympian gold medal coach in his own country

more wins than any other coach

 

As for Kennys replacement I pray it will be Chiarelli, Shero or my favorite obviously Stevo Y :)

I could have won that medal with that team. Oh, it's overtime, who should I put on the ice? Oh, I guess those 5 future HoFs, then the next 5 future HoFs when the first 5 get tired. If he coached Libya to the gold then I would say, yes, no doubt, he is the best. I would say that Ron Wilson in coaching an underdog team to the finals and into OT against the far-and-away favorites was more impressive. The 2008 Cup and 2009 finals appearance were both impressive. And at the time it would be hard to argue that he wasn't the best coach in hockey. But right now??? Nah. Not when his coaching errors are so glaringly obvious and easily solved by other coaches in the Eastern conference. Granted, not all his fault. He has to work with what he is provided with. Holland's lapses in judgment and injuries do not allow him to roll with the team he wants.

 

I think 24/7 is going to show more Babcock human errors that some seem to think don't exist. I saw a huge personality defect in the first episode. He walks into the locker room says some "hey let's pick it up out there" line and leaves. That's it? TO's coach at least draws on a board and illustrates what he is talking about. Cites specifics. Makes sure it is understood. Understood that the tradition of being a Red Wing keeps you at a higher standard. But, doesn't mean you get to improvise on the ice and hope that your overall team-talent will carry you every game. That's what I took off of the episode at least.

 

vancouver-2010-gold-medal.jpg

 

Exhibit "A".

See above.


"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#37 Playmaker

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:50 PM

Seriously, you're judging Babcock on one midseason game, midgame speech or lack thereof?  Carlyle's speeches are obviously so effective 

 

As we know very well as Red Wing fans, the team with the most talent often doesn't win.  When a coach with a ton of talent wins, it's a piece of cake and anyone could do it.  When a coach loses, it's all his fault. 



#38 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:25 PM

Seriously, you're judging Babcock on one midseason game, midgame speech or lack thereof?  Carlyle's speeches are obviously so effective 

 

As we know very well as Red Wing fans, the team with the most talent often doesn't win.  When a coach with a ton of talent wins, it's a piece of cake and anyone could do it.  When a coach loses, it's all his fault. 

Nope, not judging him based on that alone. I've seen in interviews that he is very tough with his players and expects a lot from them. I am assuming that (based on this one episode) that he is either:

 

a. Not a between periods speech guy but a before and after game speech and speech at practice guy.

 

b. Not talking with the cameras around

 

But if all his between period coaching adjustments are this abrupt, then it could be an issue.

 

I am not blaming him on all the losses. Injuries and roster adjustments are OBVIOUSLY an issue. That falls on Holland. But for anyone to suggest that there is no upgrade available ANYWHERE in the NHL just because he's won in the past... come on... And he has had it easier than a lot of coaches. He came into the Wings Org. with a Bowman-Holland-Devellano team practically built and running on all cylinders. And team Canada is even more of a baby-fed team. He had the players to win and won... on home ice. What's so special about that? Is Bowman a genius to Wings fans because he won the 2002 Cup? No, fixing the team in the early 90s and taking them to dominance is why he is a genius. Babs turns the team around and they win the Cup after dominating in the playoffs will show that he is the top coach in the NHL. Nothing less.


"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#39 Echolalia

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:32 PM

We can look at wins, Stanley Cups, gold metals etc, but I think last year's cup run was really a testament to Babs' coaching skills. That roster had no business competing for the Stanley Cup and they eliminated the heavily-favorited Ducks and sent the Cup-winning team to OT of game 7.

#40 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:51 PM

I think if we lost Babs and could pick who we wanted.....Trotz would be my first. He has done good with the crap that the nashville ownership has given him year end and year out. Yea they are no power house but when your management screws you every year man what can you do.


We can look at wins, Stanley Cups, gold metals etc, but I think last year's cup run was really a testament to Babs' coaching skills. That roster had no business competing for the Stanley Cup and they eliminated the heavily-favorited Ducks and sent the Cup-winning team to OT of game 7.

which is true to a point but we just need that one thing to get us over the hump and it just seems like babs is a little sporadic on the line changes and who sits and who doesn't. Although I do place a ton of if not most blame on Holland for not better preparing us for the end of days (lids retirement).


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