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#1 lomekian

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:20 PM

Watching the Rags game and then reading the GDT I felt moved to post, given the vaguely suicidal feel to many of the posts.

 

While I'm not averse to a coaching change, it might be worth noting that not only are the wings a playoff bubble team in transition, but they are currently having to dress Zetterburg, Bertuzzi, 3 borderline 4th liners and the AHL team.

 

Oh my God lets kill ourselves and burn it down because we can't score and are losing ground. Well our star forward, 3 of our 5 top scorers, our big (albeit woefully underachieving) UFA signing and our only 3rd liners with any scoring threat and chemistry with the other players are all missing at once. Which leaves kids and the players who wouldn't be good enough to play filling in. Out of the team that iced tonight, up front its only really Z, Abdelkader, Miller and Nyquist who are guaranteed to even be playing here next year (barring trades). 1's a dime a dozen 4th liner who can PK, Abdelkader is a good team player with no scoring touch, and Nyquist is as cold as ice (and was unlucky off the post at the end). Sure Jurco has talent, but his lack of strength is exposed at this level, and Sheahan looks a long term defensive forward. 

 

As for the rest..cleary's a busted flush who has no legs left at all, despite the willingness of his spirit; Bert is a big body with good hands who is all but useless without a top playmaker and speed with him; Sammy is only here because we get nothing for sending him down and no one else wants him; Eaves is only up because of injuries, but is a serviceable 4th liner; Emmerton is just a warm body; Glendenning is an angry warm body who may one day make a genuine 4th liner...

 

To put it another way, tonight we were without our planned centre's for all 4 lines, plus 3 of our top 5 scoring wingers (including Z here), and out top defensive D man. That's a lot to take out of a team against opposition in form. For a team who is already in mid evolution, its just too much. More importantly its the players with the attributes this team needs most (shooting, speed, composure) that are all out at once and Z is playing hurt. The penguins did great with their injuries, but even they didn;t have such a concentration of key players all out at once. 

 

The effort was there, we had over 35 shots (despite giving up a stupid amount), and Henrik actually made 3 or 4 world class saves...plus we dinged the iron. With half a team and some AHL scrubs. Much like last year, at least we are getting a good look at the next wave. Tats and Goose (though snakebitten) are now locks in this team. Sheahan and Jurco have shown they can contribute at this level in the right roles. Glendenning might make a useful AHL man who will clear waivers when needed next year (if waivers apply), and we have seen enough from Oullett and Marchenko to know that even if we can't snag a big UFA D-man this year, replacing Quincey will probably be a better value upgrade. So the evolution and youth movement we have all been bitching about is happening, and the only players who appear to have no value as future players or trades are the ones we all knew had no value anyway.

 

The playoffs may be on the line, and we find ourselves 2 points on the outside looking in, and with plenty of company. But sure SOME of the walking wounded will be back before the Olympics? Tatar has been a real spark and he's back, and appears to be channelling his loss to help the team. Of course our PP is struggling....but then its our goalscorers who are missing. I also think that the likes of Jurco & Sheahan have shown enough to suggest they can contribute if they stay up. 

 

Obviously the problem is people like Sammy and Cleary, who without doing anything wrong contribute almost nothing, but also have no room to improve. The latter can still occasionally complement the right players, but not much. Bert is not much better, but his size and instincts mean that he still is worth his place as he brings attributes that we lack.

 

I'm concerned about this year, but I'm really looking forward to next year already. Cleary, Sammy and Quincy are all gone for sure. Bert may be depending on his performance over the next few months. Eaves will be off to take an opportunity somewhere where his skillset isn't duplicated. We'll be left with a core of those have proven their worth even this year and those who have shown improvement that gives hope. Even Smith is looking pretty stable now he is more often free from the clutches of Quincy. We'll be out of our cap crunch, and places will be up for grabs for the senior kids at camp. I hope Alfie stays, but if not there are a few FAs that can contribute. Weiss is the big worry, but we'll see.

 

Personally, I think we'll squeeze into the playoffs much like last year, bolstered by getting healthy just in time, and then will upset a top seed or two in the postseason, much like last year.

 

 



#2 GMRwings1983

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:24 PM

Guys like Cleary, Sammy and Bert should have been gone seasons ago. I didn't think they'd be back this year but are. I give up on waiting for Holland to cut loose with the dead weight. As for injuries, there's plenty of teams in the league suffering from injuries and doing better than us. Also, did you ever think maybe people are panicking because we have so many injuries and have been riddled the last several seasons with them? What's to say we won't have any injuries the rest of the year? Nothing.
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#3 Dabura

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:33 PM

My big fear is we're never going to get fully healthy.


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#4 RedWang

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:37 PM

Were 6th out of 8 in our division (in front of only FLA and BUF).

And 10th out of 16 in the East (possibly 11th before the night ends).

And our upcoming schedule is absolute hell.

If we even do get healthy at some point after the olympics, which i highly doubt, were gonna be so far out of playoff contention it wont matter.

#5 SimonSin

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:46 PM

Were 6th out of 8 in our division (in front of only FLA and BUF).

And 10th out of 16 in the East (possibly 11th before the night ends).

And our upcoming schedule is absolute hell.

If we even do get healthy at some point after the olympics, which i highly doubt, were gonna be so far out of playoff contention it wont matter.

I agree with this. There are 11 games left before the Olympics. If the Wings don't win at LEAST 6 games out of that 11 you can kiss the playoff streak goodbye.



#6 dat's sick

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:49 PM

It's a ridiculous season. Almost 50 games in and we haven't dressed a 'healthy' team even once. But a lot of that comes down to mismanagement by Holland/Babcock. Really these injuries highlight what a terrible job Kenny has done. Bertuzzi, Cleary and Samuelsson are supposed to be seasoned NHL veterans that know how to succeed in this league. This is the exact situation where they should step up and score some goals and get us points. Yet they are night after night outplayed by everyone who is called up from Grand Rapids. 

 

It's also a mistake to only look at the forwards and say "of course we can't score with these lines!". Our defense is close to healthy and produces nothing offensively. Now, we don't need Erik Karlsson back there. But maybe Almqvist could help us, even if only on the PP? Maybe Marchenko would contribute more than Kindl? 

 

Bottom line is it's not only injuries that cause one to look through the lineup and see 90% players that it would be a shock to see on the scoresheet. Kenny has handcuffed the team to some very poor players and he refuses to do anything to solve it. 



#7 wings87

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:50 PM

Guys like Cleary, Sammy and Bert should have been gone seasons ago. I didn't think they'd be back this year but are. I give up on waiting for Holland to cut loose with the dead weight. As for injuries, there's plenty of teams in the league suffering from injuries and doing better than us. Also, did you ever think maybe people are panicking because we have so many injuries and have been riddled the last several seasons with them? What's to say we won't have any injuries the rest of the year? Nothing.

 

I actually think Bert has a done a decent job, he was good earlier in the year while playing with Dats and Z and is still our best net-front presence. Plus the salary he gets paid is pretty negligible.

 

I think we'll be good enough to make the playoffs, whether we will be healthy enough to compete once we get in remains to be seen.   


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#8 RedWang

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:55 PM

I agree with this. There are 11 games left before the Olympics. If the Wings don't win at LEAST 6 games out of that 11 you can kiss the playoff streak goodbye.


This is the unfortunate truth we are faced with.

To everyone whos been saying "not to panic, we'll make the playoffs we always do, etc etc.."

Now is the perfect time to panic.

Soon is the time to accept that the Red Wings were all used to are gone.
Im really not just being pessimistic. I truly do not believe things are going to just magically take a turn for the best.

#9 lomekian

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:59 PM

Guys like Cleary, Sammy and Bert should have been gone seasons ago. I didn't think they'd be back this year but are. I give up on waiting for Holland to cut loose with the dead weight. As for injuries, there's plenty of teams in the league suffering from injuries and doing better than us. Also, did you ever think maybe people are panicking because we have so many injuries and have been riddled the last several seasons with them? What's to say we won't have any injuries the rest of the year? Nothing.

 

Seasons ago? Nonsense. Last season maybe...ok cleary re-signing sticks in the throat because it was one no-one wanted, but Bert at least has been worth his contract up until this year,(and was still under contract) and as I said at least possesses some qualities that this roster is lacking in. Crucially, their presence this year hasn't realistically cost us anything bar a few more games for Nyquist and a run in the side for the enjoyable but ill suited to this team Tootoo. The only really bad signing was Sammy, which I think confused us all at the time and has proven to be an albatross that has stopped us picking up someone who would contribute more.

 

As for other teams with injuries doing better...guess what the only one with injuries to important players comparable to our own is Pittsburgh, and I don't think anyone is under any illusions regarding the comparative quality levels of the two core rosters (they had to benefit from flatlining for the best part of a decade eventually), and that trade with Dallas looked like daylight robbery at the time, let alone now. Anaheim are also comparable but they are having a super year. All the other teams with similar or worse injury levels are doing worse in the standings, so your argument is not so accurate. Also looking at the individuals injured, we've had far more injuries to the core than most other teams.

 

There is nothing to say we won't have injuries all the rest of the year bar the balance of probability, which is generally how most people make decisions. Helm of course is a concern, but his current injury is seemingly unrelated to the back problem, and its usual in every sport for long absences to result in muscle injuries. Crucially his impact when he came back suggested that he hasn't lost much strength or explosiveness, so that bodes well longer term. The prognosis on Mule's concussion is that he is recovering...he doesn't have a history of them so its hard to draw any conclusions. Dats and Alfie are of course starting to get niggly injuries related to wear and tear, but there has been no suggestion that either is particularly serious. Ericsson's is a standard impact injury..no worries there. Weiss we know about,, but he should come back stronger after surgery than before it...but he's not exaclty been our biggest loss.



#10 lomekian

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:10 PM

It's a ridiculous season. Almost 50 games in and we haven't dressed a 'healthy' team even once. But a lot of that comes down to mismanagement by Holland/Babcock. Really these injuries highlight what a terrible job Kenny has done. Bertuzzi, Cleary and Samuelsson are supposed to be seasoned NHL veterans that know how to succeed in this league. This is the exact situation where they should step up and score some goals and get us points. Yet they are night after night outplayed by everyone who is called up from Grand Rapids. 

 

It's also a mistake to only look at the forwards and say ""of course we can't score with these lines!. Our defense is close to healthy and produces nothing offensively. Now, we don't need Erik Karlsson back there. But maybe Almqvist could help us, even if only on the PP? Maybe Marchenko would contribute more than Kindl? 

 

Bottom line is it's not only injuries that cause one to look through the lineup and see 90% players that it would be a shock to see on the scoresheet. Kenny has handcuffed the team to some very poor players and he refuses to do anything to solve it. 

 

"handcuffed the team to some very poor players and he refuses to do anything to solve it. " - Tad dramatic. Its only sammy who has stopped us signing anyone better. Cleary joined too late to really impact on FA decisions, and most on here were ok if not excited about Bert's last contract. 

Of course the impact of these veterans is a disappointment, and I do think Babcock's line decisions are often in defiance of logic. But Sammy and Clearly's legs have both gone, and both Sammy and Bert have only ever been productive with speed alongside them. 

I agree about the defence, and I'd like to see more Almqvist...but offensively only Kronwall has an pedigree at this level. Smith has talent, but is still working out how to play at this level, and Kindl has always flattered to deceive. My point isn't "of course we can't score with these lines!", but rather, the mediocrity of our defensive core's points output means the onus is more on our forwards, most of whom are MIA. 

 

I feel that there should be a little more slack cut to a vast collection of penalty killers and 3/4 liners trying to support an injured Zetterberg when they have been getting decent shot totals, and actually beat LA last week. 



#11 dirtydangles

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:11 PM

One nice thing about being injured is that Holland and Babs can directly compare guys like Jurco, Sheahan, Glendening, Nyquist, and Tatar to his beloved vets Cleary, Sammy, Bert, Quincey and see how worthless their play really is when these kids have eclipsed them in every way other than birth certificates. Without this - it would be far more likely these hot pieces of garbage would be re-signed this offseason instead of promoting a more talented youngster at a far lower cap hit. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#12 RedWang

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:13 PM

If we dont win on saturday we may very well find ourselves in 13th place in the East.

Please hockey gods grant us a win.

#13 dirtydangles

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:18 PM

If we dont win on saturday we may very well find ourselves in 13th place in the East.

Please hockey gods grant us a win.

The lions fan in me says - 13th? the way things are going we will get a pretty exciting present on draft day! The wings fan in me says - f*** that it ain't good enough I want to riot. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#14 lomekian

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:30 PM

This is the unfortunate truth we are faced with.

To everyone whos been saying "not to panic, we'll make the playoffs we always do, etc etc.."

Now is the perfect time to panic.

Soon is the time to accept that the Red Wings were all used to are gone.
Im really not just being pessimistic. I truly do not believe things are going to just magically take a turn for the best.

 

I think we all know that the Red Wings we are used to are gone. The Salary cap and 2 and half decades of no high draft picks made that an inevitability. That and the fact that a great team in decline is not quite as alluring for FAs as it was. But I see this as a dip rather than a collapse as the cap won't be so tight, and this year the deadwood have played SO badly it is beyond credibility to bring them back. Also we have the best stock of farm talent in a decade or more.

 

As for panicking this season, I think we should certainly be concerned, but so many are talking like its already game over. What I have found encouraging has been how despite our depleted line up, we have kept most the recent games close, and this is largely due to having Howard back on form, and better prevention of 2nd chances around the crease over the last few games. We give up too many shots, but rebounds haven't just been hanging around as much as earlier in the season, and this makes me feel more positive about the possible effect of the return of our important players. In that when we had almost a full line up, Howard's form and the habits in the back end seemed worse. 

 

Also, I'd rather be positive than negative. The thought that  "If the Wings don't win at LEAST 6 games out of that 11 you can kiss the playoff streak goodbye." doesn't phase me. The team will have to try to do that. At least this little run of games against the best goaltenders in the NHL is over for the moment, and it looks like we start getting people back in the next few days. Surely the home form has to turn around? I guess I feel that with some key men returning this team is capable of winning 6 of 11. Though it would be lot better if we could start scoring in SOs


 

I actually think Bert has a done a decent job, he was good earlier in the year while playing with Dats and Z and is still our best net-front presence. Plus the salary he gets paid is pretty negligible.

 

I think we'll be good enough to make the playoffs, whether we will be healthy enough to compete once we get in remains to be seen.   

 

Thank heavens for some positivity! And I agree about Bert. He''s not what we really want on the top line, but for his salary he does enough.


If we dont win on saturday we may very well find ourselves in 13th place in the East.

Please hockey gods grant us a win.

 

True..but we are also only 3 points off 5th....and only Boston above us haven't played more games



#15 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:35 PM

I think that at this point management needs to seriously consider being heavy shoppers at the deadline. Drop the trash for whatever picks you can get and maybe even try to do some lateral moves to get rid of some skill guys for some heavies. The East is obviously eating this small, non-aggressive team alive and size is needed. 


"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#16 lomekian

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:41 PM

One nice thing about being injured is that Holland and Babs can directly compare guys like Jurco, Sheahan, Glendening, Nyquist, and Tatar to his beloved vets Cleary, Sammy, Bert, Quincey and see how worthless their play really is when these kids have eclipsed them in every way other than birth certificates. Without this - it would be far more likely these hot pieces of garbage would be re-signed this offseason instead of promoting a more talented youngster at a far lower cap hit. 

 

I agree with this to a degree. I think Nyquist and especially Tatar had pretty much made their point a while ago. That said I only agree to a degree because Clearly, Sammy and Quincey have been SO bad this year, a blind man could see it, and Bert has been disappointing for long stretches too. Quincey's on course for a +/- about 23 or 24 worse than last year, all of Cleary's stats are worse, which seemed unimaginably last year, Sammy fit has been marginally better than Sammy on IR, and fit again Bert is on course for his worst ever points total by a margin. The only one you can make a case for Bert because his salary is low and he has a skillset not replicated anywhere else on the roster. And he plays better with better players. Ideally none will be back, and Bert's the only one with an outside chance.


I think that at this point management needs to seriously consider being heavy shoppers at the deadline. Drop the trash for whatever picks you can get and maybe even try to do some lateral moves to get rid of some skill guys for some heavies. The East is obviously eating this small, non-aggressive team alive and size is needed. 

 

Doesn't help when the league seem fine with your best player getting a concussion from a blatant elbow to the head. Not sure heavies is really the issue...most of our current injuries are not from cheap shots or particularly heavy on ice collisions (at least officially). Of course the holy grail of big bastards who can play like Lucic would be a dream, but who would be mad enough to part with them for a price we could afford with the playoffs approaching. 

 

As for dropping the trash for picks....maybe for Quincey? But who's going to give us anything for Cleary, Sammy or Bert? 



#17 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:56 PM

 

Doesn't help when the league seem fine with your best player getting a concussion from a blatant elbow to the head. Not sure heavies is really the issue...most of our current injuries are not from cheap shots or particularly heavy on ice collisions (at least officially). Of course the holy grail of big bastards who can play like Lucic would be a dream, but who would be mad enough to part with them for a price we could afford with the playoffs approaching. 

 

As for dropping the trash for picks....maybe for Quincey? But who's going to give us anything for Cleary, Sammy or Bert? 

Quincey, Sammy, and Cleary absolutely. Bert is needed. I did say size. Also Tatar, Nyquist, Shehan, Kindl, Smith, Andersson, Eaves, Miller, Abdelkader, Howard, Franzen, and Glendening. All of them should be considered to be moved. Don't care if they are considered the "future" or "loyal." Doesn't matter how loyal you are when you don't win. As far as I can see only Dats, Kronwall, Z, DeK, Helm, and Mrazek are untouchables who have regular playing time. Tootoo and Jurco haven't been given a chance to prove themselves. Tootoo should be on the roster right now instead of anyone on the 3rd and 4th lines. 

 

I don't care where the injuries come from. The daily grind against the Eastern teams is literally hurting the Wings. Dirty/accidental injuries aside, guys are being tossed around. When a star/regular goes down, invariably a 6'1" 200lb skilled youngster is called up. We need more monsters. We need future Prongers, Thorntons, Lucics, and Byfugliens in the system and on the roster. Byfuglien can be had. He isn't the best defenseman but he is healthy, jumps in on offense, can be a PP net front presence, and plays the body. One Wing who does all that? None. Kronwall comes closest but can't risk it because if he goes down the team is done.

 

Call me a pessimist, demolitionist, or a deconstructionist, but if they miss the playoffs that should be the cue to rebuild. Nothing else to lose except fans.  


"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#18 lomekian

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 12:17 AM

Quincey, Sammy, and Cleary absolutely. Bert is needed. I did say size. Also Tatar, Nyquist, Shehan, Kindl, Smith, Andersson, Eaves, Miller, Abdelkader, Howard, Franzen, and Glendening. All of them should be considered to be moved. Don't care if they are considered the "future" or "loyal." Doesn't matter how loyal you are when you don't win. As far as I can see only Dats, Kronwall, Z, DeK, Helm, and Mrazek are untouchables who have regular playing time. Tootoo and Jurco haven't been given a chance to prove themselves. Tootoo should be on the roster right now instead of anyone on the 3rd and 4th lines. 

 

I don't care where the injuries come from. The daily grind against the Eastern teams is literally hurting the Wings. Dirty/accidental injuries aside, guys are being tossed around. When a star/regular goes down, invariably a 6'1" 200lb skilled youngster is called up. We need more monsters. We need future Prongers, Thorntons, Lucics, and Byfugliens in the system and on the roster. Byfuglien can be had. He isn't the best defenseman but he is healthy, jumps in on offense, can be a PP net front presence, and plays the body. One Wing who does all that? None. Kronwall comes closest but can't risk it because if he goes down the team is done.

 

Call me a pessimist, demolitionist, or a deconstructionist, but if they miss the playoffs that should be the cue to rebuild. Nothing else to lose except fans.  

 

Semi agree....I think moving Howard would be counter-productive at this stage unless its a deal really stacked in our favour. I also think Tatar has shown the talent, attitude and personality to be more valuable to us than on the trade market. Going down your route, I'd be loathe to lose Abdelkader too given that he has as many hits as about half out roster combined. All the others I'd be open to losing, bar the core you've already highlighted. Looking farmwards, I think we'd be foolish to part with Jurco, Mantha, Sproul, Oullett, Mrazek or Marchenko unless again the odds are very much stacked in our favour as all have shown at worst the potential to be better than what we have, and the first 5 have pretty high end potential. Everyone else is up for grabs.

 

Tootoo would bring more than Sammy and Cleary, but somehow he has never looked like he fits to me. He always seems on  a different page to his line-mates. And obviously his salary is too high. I like him, and maybe we'll see him as part of a re-structured roster next year.  I agree about the future need, but sadly so does every other team in the NHL, so they are bloody hard to get hold of. At least Mantha will have size to protect himself and Sheahan won't get tossed around too much. I think hoping Mckee pans out may be too optimistic though. Big Buff would bring a fair amount, but what would it take? And with the cap is it possible?

 

Agree about the lack of hitting. Its why for all his limitations I like Abdelkader...he moves his feet, plays the body and at least does so knowing how the skilled players in this team play. If tootoo could develop that level of understanding he'd be a lot more valuable, but as I said, he looks to me like a guy playing a role (and doing it perfectly well), but almost regardless of the system. 

 

I agree changes if they miss the playoffs, but rebuild is a dangerous word when the team is still too good to bomb. This team healthy is still a playoff team, and only a few judicious decisions from being a comfortable playoff team again. 

 

The world and his wife know that Sammy, Cleary and Quincey were mistakes, and frustratingly ones that set back this teams development when there isn't much wiggle room. Equally Eaves PLUS Miller is a waste...one or t'other. All this issues will be resolved this summer...then its a case of possible replacements. Regarding the rest of the team, its hard to know where we stand with so many players out simultaneously. A big question will be can Weiss contribute at all, and do any of the injuries look like long term lingerers?



#19 mjtm77

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:02 AM

Boys the wings will be ok. It's been mentioned but we had 6 out of our top 9 forwards out and a top d man out on an already weak defense. Leaving us a crappy hockey team with a below average 1st line. buff currently has a better roster than we do, lets Think about that for a sec. Sure we haven't really played great hockey this year, There was always something haunting us. Injuries, adjustment, or players under performing. In the game today vs NYR and the recent games leading up to today we have really seen the character the wings players have. They want to win and there passionate. If we stay injured we may miss the playoffs. But if we get heathy and make it I bet we will go far. With this team that you guys keep knocking down I gurantee it we will make it far. Despite what allot of people say. Babs has gotten better as a coach. He is the best there is. And we have a HUGE advantage.
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#20 wingsfan4795

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:34 AM

My big fear is we're never going to get fully healthy.

I didn't read any of the gdt, so I don't know if you were one of the ones calling for Babs job, but is missing the playoffs because of an injury epidemic a reason to fire the coach?

I'm as frustrated as anyone watching the wings lose after consistently putting in effort and trying to do the little things right, but there is nobody to blame. It seems like everyone here wants to blame Howard or Babcock or Holland, but really the downfall of this team has been just plain bad luck. We've had horrible luck all year with injuries. Even today when we did everything a team needs to do to win, we lost the game on a flukey goal that can't be blamed on anyone except the hockey gods.

By the way, I do think we will get enough players back soon enough to make a playoff push. Once the playoffs start its a whole new ballgame. Everyone knows that.

Good rule of thumb is always take an octopus everywhere. Better to have one and not need it than find yourself thinking, "Damn, I wish I had that octopus".

 

-Buppy






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