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alabarrie

Dan Boyle not coming back to the Sharks

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Personally, I'm ok with trading for a defenseman, but I'd like for him to be a top-end player. I don't really see Schenn being a top-four rock on a skill-centric possession team (maaaybe a Brad Stuart-esque #4), which means we're talking about the third pairing, which means we're also talking about four or five NHL-ready kids with good upside, plus Kindl and Lashoff. So, unless he'd come real cheap, I wouldn't want to trade for Schenn. But a high-end guy? I'd be open to that. Free agency should be the priority, though.

I probably should've been clearer. I don't think Sproul is going to be a two-way monster. It's possible, but unlikely.

I can see Sproul putting up points like a lunatic and throwing some big hits while being so-so in his own end. (I don't see this happening right away. This would be a few years down the road.) Given the precedent that's been set by guys like Green and Karlsson and Subban and Letang (and, again, maybe we can go back as far as Coffey, Orr...), that would actually make Sproul one of the better defensemen in this league and a fringe Norris Trophy candidate, not unlike Kronwall. So, it's not necessarily that I think he's going to be facemeltingly amazing. I just think he fits the mold of That Guy Every Team Wants and Needs at Least One of on the Blue Line. Not on the same level as Keith or Doughty or Weber or Chara or Suter (two-way monsters)...or Karlsson or Subban (one-way monsters), for that matter. But those are insanely rare and special players.

What I'm getting at is, the "new" school is never having to actually play defense. You still need your Schenns and Fistrics and Lashoffs, but the closer we can get our top three to what we had with Lidstrom-Rafalski-Kronwall, the better. That means, of course, we'll definitely need a two-way monster (who may or may not be an elderly Kronwall), and I'm not too confident Sproul is going to be that guy. But, the more offense from our defense, the better.

I'm hoping Smith can blossom with some PP time and more experience. He's one of our better puck-movers at present, and he has pretty good offensive insticts - so he's far from expendable. But if he doesn't show some pretty significant growth, and if even one of the kids below manages to do what he was supposed to do and makes an impact straight out of the gate (as opposed to needing 3-4 years to be a solid top-four defenseman, after having spent extra time on the farm), he's going to fall down the depth chart, and if we then decide to move him, we'll be selling quite low. So it's an interesting situation with Smith.

I agree we should trade for a top pairing dman depending on the cost, but we should also sign Boyle as well. I agree with you on schenn, which was the point I was making no need to trade for a guy that will give us the same result as players we already have in the pipeline

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Also - I feel bad for any and every defenseman who has to play under Randy Carlyle. He has no idea what he's doing, which puts a world of strain on his defensemen. So, while a guy like Franson may be seen as sort of a problem player, I think that's largely on the coach and his "systems" and his dumb-ass decisions.

But now I'm derailing the thread. Sorry!

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Also - I feel bad for any and every defenseman who has to play under Randy Carlyle. He has no idea what he's doing, which puts a world of strain on his defensemen. So, while a guy like Franson may be seen as sort of a problem player, I think that's largely on the coach and his "systems" and his dumb-ass decisions.

But now I'm derailing the thread. Sorry!

It's ok he's been extended another two years, so no need to fear no free agents are going to Toronto unless they vastly overpay, see Clarkson, David

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It's ok he's been extended another two years, so no need to fear no free agents are going to Toronto unless they vastly overpay, see Clarkson, David

Wasn't Clarkson's decision based mostly on his Mimico roots? (Not that the money wasn't key.)

In any case, I just wanted to point out - in re: to Jesusberg - that while Sproul might possibly go the Franson route, Franson plays for Randy Carlyle, who's ruining his young players.

I like the idea of Boyle as a mentor. Or, rather, Boyle and Kronwall as mentors.

I agree we should trade for a top pairing dman depending on the cost, but we should also sign Boyle as well. I agree with you on schenn, which was the point I was making no need to trade for a guy that will give us the same result as players we already have in the pipeline

Hey, since we're talking about Schenn...

Flyers could've had Keith Yandle, wound up with Luke Schenn

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Wasn't Clarkson's decision based mostly on his Mimico roots? (Not that the money wasn't key.)

In any case, I just wanted to point out - in re: to Jesusberg - that while Sproul might possibly go the Franson route, Franson plays for Randy Carlyle, who's ruining his young players.

I like the idea of Boyle as a mentor. Or, rather, Boyle and Kronwall as mentors.

Hey, since we're talking about Schenn...

Flyers could've had Keith Yandle, wound up with Luke Schenn

If anyone knows quality defensemen, it's certainly Philly!!

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Personally, I'm ok with trading for a defenseman, but I'd like for him to be a top-end player. I don't really see Schenn being a top-four rock on a skill-centric possession team (maaaybe a Brad Stuart-esque #4), which means we're talking about the third pairing, which means we're also talking about four or five NHL-ready kids with good upside, plus Kindl and Lashoff. So, unless he'd come real cheap, I wouldn't want to trade for Schenn. But a high-end guy? I'd be open to that. Free agency should be the priority, though.

I probably should've been clearer. I don't think Sproul is going to be a two-way monster. It's possible, but unlikely.

I can see Sproul putting up points like a lunatic and throwing some big hits while being so-so in his own end. (I don't see this happening right away. This would be a few years down the road.) Given the precedent that's been set by guys like Green and Karlsson and Subban and Letang (and, again, maybe we can go back as far as Coffey, Orr...), that would actually make Sproul one of the better defensemen in this league and a fringe Norris Trophy candidate, not unlike Kronwall. So, it's not necessarily that I think he's going to be facemeltingly amazing. I just think he fits the mold of That Guy Every Team Wants and Needs at Least One of on the Blue Line. Not on the same level as Keith or Doughty or Weber or Chara or Suter (two-way monsters)...or Karlsson or Subban (one-way monsters), for that matter. But those are insanely rare and special players.

What I'm getting at is, the "new" school is never having to actually play defense. You still need your Schenns and Fistrics and Lashoffs, but the closer we can get our top three to what we had with Lidstrom-Rafalski-Kronwall, the better. That means, of course, we'll definitely need a two-way monster (who may or may not be an elderly Kronwall), and I'm not too confident Sproul is going to be that guy. But, the more offense from our defense, the better.

I'm hoping Smith can blossom with some PP time and more experience. He's one of our better puck-movers at present, and he has pretty good offensive insticts - so he's far from expendable. But if he doesn't show some pretty significant growth, and if even one of the kids below manages to do what he was supposed to do and makes an impact straight out of the gate (as opposed to needing 3-4 years to be a solid top-four defenseman, after having spent extra time on the farm), he's going to fall down the depth chart, and if we then decide to move him, we'll be selling quite low. So it's an interesting situation with Smith.

I can see the points there, as well. His skating is much better than I thought it was - or at least, it improved. If he can settle in around that 40 point area, I'm absolutely happy - if his defensive game improves, even better. Regardless of the situation, I do think you have a PP specialist, 30+ point player in Sproul, I'm just hoping there's more there.

I think paired with Ericsson this season will do him a world of good. I also think that down the line, someone stable like DeKeyser or Ouellet could be a really good partner for him. Speedy guys who play a smart, quiet game. He's the kind of guy who needs to be able to take some chances to be most effect (same with Smith, IMO), so I'd hope for a fitting partner. His PP skill will run itself, we'll see what happens 5-on-5.

Back to Smith, I actually have hope for him. I think his biggest enemy is himself. You can see how dejected he gets when he makes a mistake, but when he's playing with confidence and taking risks, he's a fun guy to watch. I don't think Quincey can take the blame (not all of it, anyway), but I think a more stable partner will make a world of good. Quincey seemed to do a lot of "one-touch" play, getting rid of the puck ASAP. As has been mentioned, possession is key and if you've got both guys playing hot potato...

I can see him being moved if one of the kids blows up, and I really think it could come down to DeKeyser vs. Smith, and you take DeKeyser in that situation. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, Kronwall and Ericsson are here for another five years, DK's probably going to be a fixture. You've got the big four defensive prospects knocking on the door, so Smith is going to have to earn his keep, for sure.

Also - I feel bad for any and every defenseman who has to play under Randy Carlyle. He has no idea what he's doing, which puts a world of strain on his defensemen. So, while a guy like Franson may be seen as sort of a problem player, I think that's largely on the coach and his "systems" and his dumb-ass decisions.

But now I'm derailing the thread. Sorry!

Franson seemed to be put into situations where he was asked to do too much. He went from being used as purely an offensive defender to having to work on the PK, and being paired with guys like Gardiner and Rielly. I'm not 100% sure on who he was put with last season, but it just seemed as if he was allowed to play more in his comfort zone. I think the transition could have been handled more smoothly, obviously. My comparison between Sproul and Franson wasn't so much as a slight to Franson, as much as it was me being worried about a similar situation. His "rounding into a two-way" defender hasn't been handled well, obviously.

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To go with the discussion about having a puck-moving offensive defenseman: just look at the L.A. Kings in this year's playoffs. They have Doughty, Voynov and Martinez, who I would consider all to be offensive type defensemen (Doughty being an elite, two-way guy). It's no wonder they're the top scoring team in the playoffs right now with their D guys jumping into the play and making very quick passes up to their forwards who then use their speed to burn the other team.

The Wings can play like that if they have guys on the back end who can make those quick passes. Unfortunately, Kronwall and Smith (sort of) are the only guys who regularly show those kind of skills. Boyle would help in this area but I would rather see Holland go after someone who will be a part of the team for longer than 1-2 seasons.

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Everyone complaining about Boyle's statistics this year... do you take into consideration his significant concussion he sustained at the beginning of the year? Or the fact that those of us who are advocating for his signing only want him in the bottom four and on the power play?? You're not signing a #1 Defenseman because... there isn't one.

Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-Ouellet
DeKeyser-Boyle

PK1: Kronwall-Smith
PK2: DeKeyser-Ericsson

PP1: Smith-Boyle
PP2: Kronwall-Ouellet

Leave Kindl on the bench or roll with Lashoff/Marchenko as #7. The team has the cap space; I say keep Kindl as a top #7 option.

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To go with the discussion about having a puck-moving offensive defenseman: just look at the L.A. Kings in this year's playoffs. They have Doughty, Voynov and Martinez, who I would consider all to be offensive type defensemen (Doughty being an elite, two-way guy). It's no wonder they're the top scoring team in the playoffs right now with their D guys jumping into the play and making very quick passes up to their forwards who then use their speed to burn the other team.

The Wings can play like that if they have guys on the back end who can make those quick passes. Unfortunately, Kronwall and Smith (sort of) are the only guys who regularly show those kind of skills. Boyle would help in this area but I would rather see Holland go after someone who will be a part of the team for longer than 1-2 seasons.

Agree with looking at LA's model, and I'd even toss Muzzin's name into that conversation. Very good movement even within the offensive zone during PP time, etc.

I think the line of thought around grabbing someone like Boyle for 1-2 years, as opposed to Niskanen for 6-7 is that the kids coming up could very well have just as much upside as Niskanen, without paying the chunk of change he's going to demand. If Niskanen were a proven commodity, then I would think differently, but he's only had two 30 point seasons over six years. Teams are going to throw the bank at him, and I'm just not sure he'll be worth it.

Even next season, Mike Green is pretty much the only worthwhile acquisition on defense. I would much rather grab Boyle short term, and let whoever out of Sproul, Ouellet, Backman and Marchenko step up, because I'm willing to be two of those four will be quality, top 4 defenders in 3 seasons.

Now if you're thinking trade route, that's a different story. That's also a place where I see Kenny having to move a lot of assets that not every one would be thrilled about moving.

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I've referenced this piece by Kevin Weekes before and I'm gonna do it again, because he nails it (and echoes what we're all saying, right on down to the Kings being a model):

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=23229

I think the biggest challenge for the Red Wings is that they don't have a Drew Doughty or a P.K. Subban or Oliver Ekman-Larson on their blue line. I think Niklas Kronwall is a heck of a player and Jonathan Ericsson is a nice player. Danny DeKeyser has also been really impressive but he's hurt again. They just don't have one of those game-changers. Without having that, it's pretty difficult to make plays and help get the puck out of your zone and get the puck out of trouble. Detroit doesn't have one of those guys right now.

Of course, they had one of the game's all-time greats in Nicklas Lidstrom. They haven't filled that hole since he retired in 2012. Obviously, Nicklas Lidstroms don't come along every day. But at the same time, look at the L.A. Kings. They had Drew Doughty and Jack Johnson and they were able to trade Johnson because they had Slava Voynov. That's a lot of good D.

When you look at a lot of the top teams, including the Boston Bruins, quite often they have one, if not two or three, of those guys on the back end. Detroit has some room to improve in that area.

And before someone says "YEAH BUT NAME ONE REALLY GOOD DEFENSEMAN WHO'S BEEN TRADED (HA! THEREFORE WE CAN'T TRADE FOR ONE BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. THESE STICKS KEEP THOSE LIONS AWAY REAL GOOD)"...

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41032-Campbell-Brent-Burns-trade-moves-Sharks-closer-to-Stanley-Cup.html

ST. PAUL – The moment Mike Babcock learned the San Jose Sharks had acquired defenseman Brent Burns, he instantly got the look of a guy who’s [sic] team just let one get away.

His Red Wings are looking for a defenseman to replace the retired Brian Rafalski, but it was the playoff rival Sharks who pried the talented Burns away from the Minnesota Wild in a blockbuster trade.

“They just hit a home run,” Babcock said of the Sharks. “That’s a gold medal pick. I’m pissed off.”

Can you believe that? We still had Nick Lidstrom at that point, yet Babcock was, by his own candid admission, pissed off that we didn't add this top-four defenseman! I ask if you can believe that because, well, here we are, it's several years later, we have no Rafalski, no Lidstrom, and still no "Brent Burns" (solid top-four defenseman). And, oh yeah, our core players are that much older*.

*(Datsyuk is 35, slowing down, and making incredibly uncharacteristic mistakes on the ice. Z is 33 and has been battling back problems which recently pushed him to the ultimate measure of last resort for a pro athlete: back surgery. Kronwall is 33 and is being leaned on way too heavily. [Which is the whole point here, really.] Franzen is 34 and probably one concussion away from early retirement. Hell, our kids are barely even "kids." We talk about Smith like he's 20 when he's actually 25. Young, but not a kid.)

Kenny needs to be aggressive. He needs to be ruthless. He can't be completely averse to risk. To which he'd say:

"Well, we need to draft well and build from within. We can't go chasing big names. We can't go out and get a guy every time we have a hole to fill. That's not the way you win these days. If you look at the top teams in the league right now, they got to where they are today by drafting well and developing well. Now they're reaping the benefits. Blah blah blah."

And yet, he was in on Suter and Parise. And he was in on Edler. And he was in on Bouwmeester. And he kicked the tires on Weber. And he kicked the tires on Salo. And he actually brought in two guys in Colaiacovo and Quincey (and a third in DeKeyser, if you want to count him that way). And he also brought in Alfredsson and Weiss. And he traded one of our best prospects and a second-round pick for a few weeks of Legwand.

I have a love/hate relationship with our GM.

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They tried to get Burns. The Wild liked the package they got better, and I thought it was an overpayment.

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They tried to get Burns. The Wild liked the package they got better, and I thought it was an overpayment.

In retrospect, I may have felt that way at the time, but I definitely don't think it was anymore. Coyle's a stud, but Setoguchi didn't last long and the 1st ended up being Zack Phillips, who hasn't produced much in the AHL as of right now. It's a moot point, since San Jose's package was favored, but I would have liked to have Burns here, regardless of an overpayment.

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They tried to get Burns. The Wild liked the package they got better, and I thought it was an overpayment.

In retrospect, I may have felt that way at the time, but I definitely don't think it was anymore. Coyle's a stud, but Setoguchi didn't last long and the 1st ended up being Zack Phillips, who hasn't produced much in the AHL as of right now. It's a moot point, since San Jose's package was favored, but I would have liked to have Burns here, regardless of an overpayment.

Regardless the point is they made an offer. They didn't "let him get away."

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