23 man roster set... say hi to your 2014/15 Wings

[rick zombo 3,739]

I'm in the same boat for Wings standards this is a disappointing roster with too many question marks. Bright spots are obviously Tatar, Goose and if he does well XO other than that pretty meh.

Over the long haul I think that Jurco and Sheahan will both be better than at least one of Tatar and Goose.

Edited October 8, 2014 by rick zombo

[RyanBarnes! 293]

Not if you factor in durability. In which case Helm is Miller's beotch.

Durability is great but that is about the only thing Miller brings imo.

That's exactly right, I'd prefer 5 Semins. Way to have an adult dialogue about it.

it was a legitimate question. No need to be so hostile.

[LAWings 160]

I'm not fine with any professional hockey team that realistically plans to use all of Abdelkader, Helm, Miller, Glendening, and Andersson. Nevermind Nestrasil, he'll be gone in a week or two.

Three...maaaaaaybe four of those guys could play on my team. But not all of them. We've got mediocre talent eating up a lot of roster spots and minutes. Until we don't, this team will stay mediocre.

"But...but...but...Kip, Mike Babcock says Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader are too good to be on the fourth line".

So what?

Kris Draper won the Selke, scored more than either of them, and played on the fourth line for most of his career.

Ice a real roster or lose games. It's pretty simple.

Good comparison regarding Meat Drapes on the 4th line. The Wings do such a terrible disservice to their top line having a 'piano puller' on the top line. Compare any other high caliber team and I cannot find a 3rd/4th liner playing on the top line. To compare, go here: http://www2.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/

I hope to be proven wrong and he breaks out this year but that's just a dream.

[kipwinger 8,521]

it was a legitimate question. No need to be so hostile.

I know it was. You clearly thought, based on things I've said over the years, that I wanted a skilled, goal scoring, forward to play BOTH spots on defense. I can see why you'd think that based on the fact that I like Alexander Semin. Totally legitimate. You're obviously not being obtuse. Not at all.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

7 out of 9 Yahoo hockey editors/columnists pick the Wings to MISS the playoffs this season.

Quotes of note:

"You’ll notice there’s no “*” next to the Detroit Red Wings, and that’s because all streaks eventually have to end. Might as well be in Mike Babcock’s swan song…"

"There are a few good young pieces in place like Danny DeKeyser and Tomas Tatar, but an aging Henrik Zetterberg and a mummified Pavel Datsyuk can only carry the team for so long until they breakdown."

"The final spot in the Eastern Conference playoffs will likely go to the Detroit Red Wings mainly due to the fact that Mike Babcock to get a team of 12 year olds to play better systems based hockey than many other coaches in the league."

Full article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/nhl-eastern-conference-2014-15--puck-daddy-s-predictions-160216025.html

[kook_10 1,705]

To whom much is given much is expected. Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty. Why not us? Hanta yo! It's a great day for hockey! I like our team. something like that...yadda yadda yadda etc etc etc

Go Wings!

Edited October 8, 2014 by kook_10

[Nev 1,085]

I'm not fine with any professional hockey team that realistically plans to use all of Abdelkader, Helm, Miller, Glendening, and Andersson. Nevermind Nestrasil, he'll be gone in a week or two.

Three...maaaaaaybe four of those guys could play on my team. But not all of them. We've got mediocre talent eating up a lot of roster spots and minutes. Until we don't, this team will stay mediocre.

I agree.

BUT

Datsyuk and Alfredsson/Mantha are out. Put them in the line-up and these are our forward lines

Franzen - Z - Nyquist

Weiss - Datsyuk - Alfie/Mantha

Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Helm - Abdelkader

Scrubs: Glendening/Andersson/Cleary/Nesty

Suddenly that's a helluva 4th line we've got. 1st line is money. 2nd line is a bit of a lucky dip I'll grant. 3rd line is money.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Yup, and so are the Hockey News.

In fact, they are predictiong Florida to finish higher in the standings

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/2014-15-nhl-predictions-division-and-stanley-cup-picks/

On a related note, wtf happened with this parity thing. LA-Boston-Chicago? How the f*** is that any different than the days of Colorado-Detroit-New Jersey. Sometimes I feel like all the salary cap has accomplished is to neuter The Red Wings.

[kipwinger 8,521]

I agree.

BUT

Datsyuk and Alfredsson/Mantha are out. Put them in the line-up and these are our forward lines

Franzen - Z - Nyquist

Weiss - Datsyuk - Alfie/Mantha

Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Helm - Abdelkader

Scrubs: Glendening/Andersson/Cleary/Nesty

Suddenly that's a helluva 4th line we've got. 1st line is money. 2nd line is a bit of a lucky dip I'll grant. 3rd line is money.

I agree. And as I've already stated, I know the roster will change. I'm just not going to be excited about our roster until it looks something like that (although, probably not with Weiss on the wing lol).

Getting rid of the garbage will go a long way toward making this team something credible again. Holland (and Babs) ability to keep those guys out of the lineup as much as possible is going to be a story I follow throughout this season.

[number9 3,297]

Yup, and so are the Hockey News.

In fact, they are predictiong Florida to finish higher in the standings

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/2014-15-nhl-predictions-division-and-stanley-cup-picks/

On a related note, wtf happened with this parity thing. LA-Boston-Chicago? How the f*** is that any different than the days of Colorado-Detroit-New Jersey. Sometimes I feel like all the salary cap has accomplished is to neuter The Red Wings.

I would add St. Louis and New York, to that list, and Vancouver and Philly were also in the mix there for a minute.

Plenty of good teams that havnt won recently. San Jose and Anaheim. And now Tampa and Dallas are emerging.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I would add St. Louis and New York, to that list, and Vancouver and Philly were also in the mix there for a minute.

Plenty of good teams that havnt won recently. San Jose and Anaheim. And now Tampa and Dallas are emerging.

Sure. And you could add Dallas and Carolina and Tampa and Philly and Washington to the list pre-cap too.

My point is that parity was supposed to mean different teams winning. Over the last five years we've only had 3 champs. No different than the pre-cap era where Colorado, Detroit, and Jersey took turns winning for 7 or 8 years (with one Dallas cup in 99).

So what has the cap accomplished? More revenue for owners. That's all.

I can't deal with another Blackhawks championship. Doesn't seem fair.

Edited October 8, 2014 by rick zombo

[wings87 1,290]

Yup, and so are the Hockey News.

In fact, they are predictiong Florida to finish higher in the standings

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/2014-15-nhl-predictions-division-and-stanley-cup-picks/

On a related note, wtf happened with this parity thing. LA-Boston-Chicago? How the f*** is that any different than the days of Colorado-Detroit-New Jersey. Sometimes I feel like all the salary cap has accomplished is to neuter The Red Wings.

It's different because Bettman says it's different, damn it. Pay attention...

[kipwinger 8,521]

My point is that parity was supposed to mean different teams winning.

I thought parity was supposed to mean that different teams wouldn't be prohibited from winning based on their inability to spend as much money as other teams. I don't think anyone ever said, or believed, that parity meant all teams would have an equal chance of winning. Of course they wouldn't. Drafting, development, coaching, etc. are different for all organizations around the league. Parity was just supposed to make sure there were no New York Yankees in hockey (e.g. a team with marginal drafting, development, coaching, etc. but EXCELLENT player acquisition).

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Honestly, the part that irritates me isn't that they're playing. They've all got some value (if used correctly). What gets my goat is the the organization has everyone around here so hoodwinked that they actually buy it when Abby gets put on the top line and we hear "Dats wants Abby to pull the piano". Or "Helms speed will be killer on the forecheck". All us monkeys nod our heads in agreement and then wonder why Dats and Z's production falls to the floor.

Want a guy who can "pull the piano" AND produce in top six? The Sabres have been trying to trade Drew Stafford for two years. He's not a superstar but he's WAY better than Abdelkader.

Want a guy who can use speed on the forecheck and produce in the top six? You've got at least two of them toiling away on your third line (Tatar and Jurco). Or you could have signed someone like Radim Vrbata (a possession monster) who consistently produces offense while being defensively responsible.

Nope, Helm and Abby. That's the way to the promised land. Ugh.

Well, Zetterberg was on pace to have one of his best years before his injury so I don't know about your comment their production "falling to the floor."

Abby on the top line is a hangover from the success of Homer there. it hasn't worked with Abby - hopefully Babcock sees that. But Helm is a different player and has yet to play on the top line. You pretty much quoted earlier comments to you the Helm so I feel i need to respond to the "hoodwinked" and "monkeys nodding their agreement" comments. It's a very different thing to think trying Helm on the first line is worth a try then mindlessly agreeing with the organization. My preference would be Mantha on that top line, but he's injured. Jurco would be good in that spot, but I really like the T-S-J line and I'd prefer to to keep them together.

Stafford's would be a rental this year with one year left in his contract. I'd be for it if we traded Cleary and Andersson to have him for this year. If Stafford's a worthy pick up he's a UFA next year. Having Stafford would put up a road block for Mantha, Nestrasil.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

To whom much is given much is expected. Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty. Why not us? Hanta yo! It's a great day for hockey! I like our team. something like that...yadda yadda yadda etc etc etc

Go Wings!

What does Hanto yo even mean ? Let's go ?

as for the stupid cap:

The only thing different is this: top teams have now to pay a large amount of money in order to support failed franchises and aren't allowed to spend whatever they want. Nothing has changed it's basically LA - Chicago (maybe Blues) versus one of Boston - Pittsburgh.. every year.

I am not surprised so many experts are picking the Wings to miss the playoffs, there are just too many question marks and the roster even healthy is really not that good.

Edited October 8, 2014 by frankgrimes

[kipwinger 8,521]

Well, Zetterberg was on pace to have one of his best years before his injury so I don't know about your comment their production "falling to the floor."

Abby on the top line is a hangover from the success of Homer there. it hasn't worked with Abby - hopefully Babcock sees that. But Helm is a different player and has yet to play on the top line. You pretty much quoted earlier comments to you the Helm so I feel i need to respond to the "hoodMy winked" and "monkeys nodding their agreement" comments. It's a very different thing to think trying Helm on the first line is worth a try then mindlessly agreeing with the organization. My preference would be Mantha on that top line, but he's injured. Jurco would be good in that spot, but I really like the T-S-J line and I'd prefer to to keep them together.

Stafford's would be a rental this year with one year left in his contract. I'd be for it if we traded Cleary and Andersson to have him for this year. If Stafford's a worthy pick up he's a UFA next year. Having Stafford would put up a road block for Mantha, Nestrasil.

1. Zetterberg's on pace to have a good season every year (almost). Who cares? Last year Alexander Steen was on pace to outscore Ovechkin for about 20 games. On pace really doesn't mean s***.

2. Prefer whatever you want. I'd prefer to actually have a top line winger (and not a third line center) on the top line. Also, as I've said a couple times already: Sure putting Helm on the first line "is worth a try". But this is a professional hockey team, running a business. If they don't have a better strategy for success than "it's worth a try", we're in trouble.

3. If Stafford is a rental he can't block anybody long term. Short term he wouldn't block anybody on the current roster because you'd have to trade to get him. One in, one out. Also, you could just waive any of Andersson, Glendening, or Cleary as well. Nothing about acquiring one guy would block those two. However, my point was mostly that he's been available for as long as we've been trying this stupid "bottom six grinder" to top line winger experiment.

4. Lets not go anointing Nestrasil some kind of up and comer just yet. He's (so far) yet to show he can even play consistently in the AHL, let alone the NHL . He had a good camp which is good. But if you're reluctant to take on a proven NHL player like Stafford because you aren't sure how that affects a guy like Nestrasil, then you've got some pretty funny priorities.

Look, all I'm saying is that if you need a top line winger...go get a top line winger (or promote one). Abby and Helm are bottom six players. No amount of line adjusting changes their skill set. If you want a top line winger who's biggish, physically tough, and can score ok...go get a guy like Stafford. If you want a guy who's fast, defensively responsible, and can score a little...go get Vrbata.

If you want bottom six grinders who are defensively responsible and chip in middling offense...go get Abby or Helm.

The organization is trying to turn them into something they aren't, and it's detrimental to the team.

Edited October 8, 2014 by kipwinger

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I can't remember who it was that was blaming Babcock for Nyquist not being on the team, but this is about as clear as it gets regarding roster decisions between Holland and Babcock.

"Probably nine of the 10 years I've been here we've disagreed before the start of the season," Babcock said. "I'm a coach. I'm an immediate gratification guy. I want to win today.

"He's the manager and he always has a much longer plan than I do so I would say we're pretty consistent. I would say we've disagreed about every year so I don't think this is any different. I wanted Nyquist on the team last year and he couldn't be on the team. Every year is the same."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/10/pavel_datsyuk_officially_out_f.html#incart_river

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

This team makes no changes in the offseason and expects people to be excited. Unless you won the Cup the year before, every team should do something to mix things up a little or give fans a new player or two to watch and root for.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

As much as most of us can't stand Abdelkader being in the top 6, I really think it's a total shift in the NHL in general. Teams are rolling out top 9's now. Look around at the lines for other teams. Anaheim uses Matt Beleskey on their 2nd line, and they used Pat Maroon on their top line last season. Los Angeles has Tanner Pearson on the 2nd, while Justin Williams (who won the Conn Smythe) is on their 3rd line. Chicago's rolling out a Saad-Shaw-Kane line.

Is Abdelkader better or worse than some of those guys? I don't know, and I don't like him on that line, flat out. I do know that there's a shift in how teams are rolling out scoring lines. Teams aren't top heavy anymore - they're trying to run three balanced scoring lines. For better or worse, Abs is going to stay in that top 9 somewhere. Detroit's going to utilize guys like he and Helm to fill in spots on line where they battle for pucks and play in front of the net.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

As much as most of us can't stand Abdelkader being in the top 6, I really think it's a total shift in the NHL in general. Teams are rolling out top 9's now. Look around at the lines for other teams. Anaheim uses Matt Beleskey on their 2nd line, and they used Pat Maroon on their top line last season. Los Angeles has Tanner Pearson on the 2nd, while Justin Williams (who won the Conn Smythe) is on their 3rd line. Chicago's rolling out a Saad-Shaw-Kane line.

Is Abdelkader better or worse than some of those guys? I don't know, and I don't like him on that line, flat out. I do know that there's a shift in how teams are rolling out scoring lines. Teams aren't top heavy anymore - they're trying to run three balanced scoring lines. For better or worse, Abs is going to stay in that top 9 somewhere. Detroit's going to utilize guys like he and Helm to fill in spots on line where they battle for pucks and play in front of the net.

But all those teams are a lot better than us with a much deeper offensive pool So whatever they're doing, they're doing it right.

Abby in the top 6 is a perfect indication of why this team has fallen from contender status. Guy works hard on every shift, but it's like putting lipstick on a pig. It shouldn't be there and he shouldn't be getting big minutes with skilled players.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

But all those teams are a lot better than us with a much deeper offensive pool So whatever they're doing, they're doing it right.

Abby in the top 6 is a perfect indication of why this team has fallen from contender status. Guy works hard on every shift, but it's like putting lipstick on a pig. It shouldn't be there and he shouldn't be getting big minutes with skilled players.

To be fair, I wouldn't want to put a lipstick wearing pig on their line, either. Like I said in my previous post, I hate Abdelkader there. What I'm pointing out is that people going on about him being in the top 6 - the idea of the top 6 is being weeded out all over. Given the current roster, I'd much rather see something along the lines of:

Z-Datsyuk-Jurco

Mule-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Abdelkader

Miller-Helm-Glendening

I think that works the same way - using Jurco as a puck-retrieval/net presence guy. You're still rolling three scoring lines, and keeping pairings that have been proven to work in the past. Problem is, Babcock won't trust Jurco in that situation, and Holland doesn't want to foot the bill next season after his numbers (in theory) blow up.

For the record, I think the team falling out of contender status has more to do with hanging onto assets that aren't of value anymore, and not filling in voids on the blueline. I believe that misusing Abdelkader is an issue, but hardly the most pressing one.

[RyanBarnes! 293]

I know it was. You clearly thought, based on things I've said over the years, that I wanted a skilled, goal scoring, forward to play BOTH spots on defense. I can see why you'd think that based on the fact that I like Alexander Semin. Totally legitimate. You're obviously not being obtuse. Not at all.

nope, I was referring to the five forwards you mentioned.

[kipwinger 8,521]

nope, I was referring to the five forwards you mentioned.

Your exact words were..."but I suppose you would prefer 5 Semin's".

It's a little bit like if I tried to summarize your position on the team by saying "I suppose you would prefer 5 Abdelkaders".

It would make me dumb, reductionist, and inaccurate. You're better than that. I hope.

Edited October 8, 2014 by kipwinger

[joesuffP 1,746]

Helm, weiss and Kindl are as expendable of players we've ever had

[Internet.Unknown 422]

as for the stupid cap:

The only thing different is this: top teams have now to pay a large amount of money in order to support failed franchises and aren't allowed to spend whatever they want.

QFE