Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

[kipwinger 8,524]

The nfl still has an epidemic of guys killing defenseless receivers. Still has guys chop blocking.

I also think the nhl will always have the dirtiest amount of plays because the game is so fast but also because of the huge difference in size between some guys.

There you go, making stuff up to support a point that's indefensible.

There are an average of 5.38 "Unnecessary Roughness" penalties PER TEAM (per season) in the NFL. That includes chop blocking, spearing, hitting a player out of bounds, hitting a defenseless player, hitting a kicker or quarterback, hitting in the knees, etc.

5. Per team. Per year. And that includes ALL types of illegal hits.

There is no illegal hit epidemic in the NFL. None. Zero. Illegal hits do happen, but have been minimized as much as is humanly possible. Without fighting.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/unnecessary-roughness?year=2014

[kipwinger 8,524]

And the NFL decided to let Suh play after he stomped on Rodgers leg, and was given a suspension (then reversed).

Fighting all boils down to the NHLPA.....Most players still want it in the game, and they don't wish to see extensive fines/suspensions.....In a odd way they are their own worst enemy.

Again, the fact that it's not PERFECT doesn't mean it's not BETTER. I'm not sure why you think that one counter example completely invalidates a demonstrably more effective form of deterring illegal activity. It doesn't.

[cnot19 191]

There you go, making stuff up to support a point that's indefensible.

There are an average of 5.38 "Unnecessary Roughness" penalties PER TEAM (per season) in the NFL. That includes chop blocking, spearing, hitting a player out of bounds, hitting a defenseless player, hitting a kicker or quarterback, hitting in the knees, etc.

5. Per team. Per year. And that includes ALL types of illegal hits.

There is no illegal hit epidemic in the NFL. None. Zero. Illegal hits do happen, but have been minimized as much as is humanly possible. Without fighting.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/unnecessary-roughness?year=2014

You may see it as indefensible but again the majority of nhl players do not. And a large percentage of fans do not as well

For some reason you see your word as gospel and anything that disagrees with it is wrong and can not be supported

Edited February 23, 2015 by cnot19

[kipwinger 8,524]

A NFL'er doesn't need to fight, and risk fines/suspension when in less than a minute you can exact revenge by ramming your opponent into the ground as hard as you can.

And you can't "ram your opponent into the boards as hard as you can" a minute later in hockey?

Another trash argument.

[kipwinger 8,524]

You may see it as indefensible but again the majority of nhl players do not. And a large percentage of fans do not as well

Sooooo...I take it you're conceding this "NFL has a bad hit epidemic" point eh? I thought so. Because it's not true.

Fines and suspensions work.

You're welcome to continue to enjoy fighting. I honestly don't care. It's clear you like it because you find it entertaining and you don't care about the associated health risks. That's fine.

What I have a problem with, is the endless string of bulls*** argument you guys keep coming up with to justify fighting in hockey. "It deters dirty hits". "There's not a better system". "It gives your team momentum". It doesn't. At all.

Just say, "I like it because I like watching guys I don't like getting punched by guys I do". At least then you wouldn't be totally full of it.

[cnot19 191]

Sooooo...I take it you're conceding this "NFL has a bad hit epidemic" point eh? I thought so. Because it's not true.

Fines and suspensions work.

You're welcome to continue to enjoy fighting. I honestly don't care. It's clear you like it because you find it entertaining and you don't care about the associated health risks. That's fine.

What I have a problem with, is the endless string of bulls*** argument you guys keep coming up with to justify fighting in hockey. "It deters dirty hits". "There's not a better system". "It gives your team momentum". It doesn't. At all.

Just say, "I like it because I like watching guys I don't like getting punched by guys I do". At least then you wouldn't be totally full of it.

No I'm not conceding that point there's countless cheap plays that go I flagged that lead to later fines. Similar to the nhl. I just realized it's not worth trying to talk to you about it.

But where did I ever say it was a better system or anything of that nature? Or the other things you accuse me of? What I want to talk about and flush out with people is how difficult it is to implement the system you wish.

[The Greek 323]

So by claiming that Canadiens are racist and being Canadien himself, he proves his point by ... being racist. Gotcha.

I don't think you understand what constitutes racism.

[cnot19 191]

Deleted quoted myself

Edited February 23, 2015 by cnot19

[cnot19 191]

No I'm not conceding that point there's countless cheap plays that go I flagged that lead to later fines. Similar to the nhl. I just realized it's not worth trying to talk to you about it. I think finding out whether fines and suspensions have worked in the nfl would require a comprehensive study that I have neither the time nor desire to do. I do think the nfl system has worked to an extent to deter some of the illegal hits they wished to remove but I would argue so has the nhl

But where did I ever say it was a better system or anything of that nature? Or the other things you accuse me of? What I want to talk about and flush out with people is how difficult it is to implement the system you wish.

[HockeytownRules19 902]

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 58s58 seconds ago

#RedWings Zetterberg (head) doubtful vs. Ducks, Pulkinnen (leg) taking warmup to see how he feels, Quincey (lower body) out, per Ken Holland

[cnot19 191]

Contact sports have health risks...As I stated earlier the NFL has alot more issues with head trauma/debilitating injuries/substance abuse/domestic abuse than the NHL could ever dream of...The NHL - even with it's stance of tolerating fighting is 'poster boy' clean when compared to the other pro leagues here in N.America.

I also believe the nfl treated concussions much worse than the nhl did. The nfl deliberately misinformed players as to the risk of concussions. There is no evidence the nhl has done anything like this.

[Echolalia 2,961]

No I'm not conceding that point there's countless cheap plays that go I flagged that lead to later fines. Similar to the nhl. I just realized it's not worth trying to talk to you about it.

But where did I ever say it was a better system or anything of that nature? Or the other things you accuse me of? What I want to talk about and flush out with people is how difficult it is to implement the system you wish.

What's so difficult about implementing harsher fines and suspensions for contact to the head? The NHLPA doesn't exaclty have a lot of sway in how the NHL is run. Every lockout that has ever occurred is good proof of this. But especially in this situation, they have no ground to stand on. The proposed rule changes would be put in place for the players' well being, and with all the talk about former hockey players suing the NHL for concussions sustained, any argument against strict punishment for shots to the head is going to be ridiculously hypocritical on their part. I also think the NHLPA would be pretty split on the matter. There's a lot of players who are currently dealing with concussion issues and have had their careers ended because of hits to the head. There's a lot of players that I suspect are smart enough to realize they don't want the same thing to happen to them. Hell, Steve Yzerman has already come out and said he wants the league to be more strict with headshots and implement suspensions for fighting because of the associated hits to the head. That's a pretty big voice to be saying that, especially one who shared the ice with the likes of Probert, Kocur, McCarty etc.

Having said that, when we're talking about player safety and the alterative to harsh fines and strict suspensions is having players beat up other players, you can understand when people like Kip and myself find those saying violence is the best option as being silly.

[cnot19 191]

What's so difficult about implementing harsher fines and suspensions for contact to the head? The NHLPA doesn't exaclty have a lot of sway in how the NHL is run. Every lockout that has ever occurred is good proof of this. But especially in this situation, they have no ground to stand on. The proposed rule changes would be put in place for the players' well being, and with all the talk about former hockey players suing the NHL for concussions sustained, any argument against strict punishment for shots to the head is going to be ridiculously hypocritical on their part. I also think the NHLPA would be pretty split on the matter. There's a lot of players who are currently dealing with concussion issues and have had their careers ended because of hits to the head. There's a lot of players that I suspect are smart enough to realize they don't want the same thing to happen to them. Hell, Steve Yzerman has already come out and said he wants the league to be more strict with headshots and implement suspensions for fighting because of the associated hits to the head. That's a pretty big voice to be saying that, especially one who shared the ice with the likes of Probert, Kocur, McCarty etc.

Having said that, when we're talking about player safety and the alterative to harsh fines and strict suspensions is having players beat up other players, you can understand when people like Kip and myself find those saying violence is the best option as being silly.

I think you're overstating how easy it is to increase fines within the cba. While you may say the nhlpa has little power when it comes to the lockout I would disagree with that. Obviously the nhl has more power but any league will. Also my point remains that I do not believe there is enough of a drive on either side to change the current practice. Poll after poll shows there is no split on fighting within the nhlpa it's very much in support of fighting.

Again I never said that the best way to deal with cheapshots is to fight. I like fighting and I like seeing stand up for themselves. This does not mean by fighting it may mean taking a number and clobbering the guy with a clean hit later. If you don't want that in the game idk what to tell you.

[cnot19 191]

What's so difficult about implementing harsher fines and suspensions for contact to the head? The NHLPA doesn't exaclty have a lot of sway in how the NHL is run. Every lockout that has ever occurred is good proof of this. But especially in this situation, they have no ground to stand on. The proposed rule changes would be put in place for the players' well being, and with all the talk about former hockey players suing the NHL for concussions sustained, any argument against strict punishment for shots to the head is going to be ridiculously hypocritical on their part. I also think the NHLPA would be pretty split on the matter. There's a lot of players who are currently dealing with concussion issues and have had their careers ended because of hits to the head. There's a lot of players that I suspect are smart enough to realize they don't want the same thing to happen to them. Hell, Steve Yzerman has already come out and said he wants the league to be more strict with headshots and implement suspensions for fighting because of the associated hits to the head. That's a pretty big voice to be saying that, especially one who shared the ice with the likes of Probert, Kocur, McCarty etc.

Having said that, when we're talking about player safety and the alterative to harsh fines and strict suspensions is having players beat up other players, you can understand when people like Kip and myself find those saying violence is the best option as being silly.

If you feel you need to police the game as a fan that's fine and I can respect that. If you are acting as a watchdog for the players and feel you should then good on you. I just don't see the problem within the league the nhlpa or fans as a whole to radically address what you see as a problem.

I'm not gonna sit here and insult you as you take on what you believe is a just cause to change the way the game is policed. I have no problem discussing how you would make changes and implement them again something that legally is not that easy to do

Edited February 23, 2015 by cnot19

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

There are a whole lot of bad arguments too. One of them, which seems to be a common refrain around here, is that "fighting is good because otherwise hockey is homosexual" or it's "sissy", or "like soccer", "lady like", or some other thinly veiled innuendo. That's a problem; for LGW in particular, and the hockey community in general.

Which is why I can appreciate someone with a little more sense than that, regardless of whether or not I agree with you.

That has been around as long as time.

[Mckinley25 677]

That has been around as long as time.

A lot of bad things have been, doesn't mean they shouldn't be reevaluated.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I think you're overstating how easy it is to increase fines within the cba. While you may say the nhlpa has little power when it comes to the lockout I would disagree with that. Obviously the nhl has more power but any league will. Also my point remains that I do not believe there is enough of a drive on either side to change the current practice. Poll after poll shows there is no split on fighting within the nhlpa it's very much in support of fighting.

Again I never said that the best way to deal with cheapshots is to fight. I like fighting and I like seeing stand up for themselves. This does not mean by fighting it may mean taking a number and clobbering the guy with a clean hit later. If you don't want that in the game idk what to tell you.

No one is sugesting taking clean hits out of the game. I'm not sure where you even thought that was implied. What people want to see is headshots removed from the game. The thing thats associated with concussions, longterm brain injury, forced early retirement, lawsuits, etc etc. The league has already implemented (without much resistance or red tape to cut through from the NHLPA, and with full support from the board of governors by the way) strict suspensions for blindside hits to the head. In the 90s those blindside hits were exactly what made Scott Stevens such an impressive and formidible defensman. So its not like its impossible to change the culture of hockey for the best interest of player health. We've gone from celebrating those hits to condeming them within 10 years. The next step is to apply the same logic to fighting. After all, punches are hits to the head, and we know irrefutibly that hits to the head are correlated with concussions, and all the adverse events that come with them. And guess what? That change in culture is already happening. Fighting has steadily been declining over the past decade. In the early 2000s there was about 0.5-0.6 fights per game, and these days that number is down to around 0.35. So despite what you may think about the NHLPA, their stance on fighting, their influnece over the league/s decision to implement rules, the natural evolution of the NHL has been reducing the amount of fights that we see. That's also going to go a long way when the league decides to implement stricter punishments for all headshots.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Contact sports have health risks...As I stated earlier the NFL has alot more issues with head trauma/debilitating injuries/substance abuse/domestic abuse than the NHL could ever dream of...The NHL - even with it's stance of tolerating fighting is 'poster boy' clean when compared to the other pro leagues here in N.America.

The NFL also has physical specialists for their chosen position and some of them are 6,8 ft 300 lbs + machines, if they bearhawk someone with fullspeed yeah sadly injuries, traumas and other stuff will happen. Add to that the massive equipment those guys are wearing and well...

Facts are:

Z is out today with a possible concussion, Benn received a 2 minute roughing penalty and no hearing - that's wrong and whenever those two teams are meeting again it should be payback time and I couldn't care less if someone thinks that's wrong or right.

The on-ice policy stuff has and will always be part of hockey. If the team again fails to do aanything - i.e. see Pasha last year and this is worse! - I'll be heavily disappointed the league won't do anything fine then it's on their team itself to handle that stuff.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Contact sports have health risks...As I stated earlier the NFL has alot more issues with head trauma/debilitating injuries/substance abuse/domestic abuse than the NHL could ever dream of...The NHL - even with it's stance of tolerating fighting is 'poster boy' clean when compared to the other pro leagues here in N.America.

Saying it doesn't make it so. Provide one single shred of evidence to support the fact that the NFL has more head trauma issues than the NHL. I'll wait.

It's funny because another pro-fighting guy said the exact opposite earlier. That the NHL has way more head trauma because of the speed of the game.

Again, I just don't see why you guys don't just say "I like fighting because its fun". Which is fine. As long as you realize, and don't care, that what you find entertaining is also really screwing people up.

But you keep trying to sell this notion that the best way to end head injuries is to allow players to punch each other in the head. Which is, of course, idiotic.

[Echolalia 2,961]

If you feel you need to police the game as a fan that's fine and I can respect that. If you are acting as a watchdog for the players and feel you should then good on you. I just don't see the problem within the league the nhlpa or fans as a whole to radically address what you see as a problem.

I'm not gonna sit here and insult you as you take on what you believe is a just cause to change the way the game is policed. I have no problem discussing how you would make changes and implement them again something that legally is not that easy to do

So you don't think concussions, brain damage, long-term cognitive and memory impairment, and the consequential lawsuits are a problem?

[kipwinger 8,524]

So you don't think concussions, brain damage, long-term cognitive and memory impairment, and the consequential lawsuits are a problem?

Well there's your explanation. There is no problem. Don't fix what ain't broken. Ugh.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'm not 'selling' anything Kip - I think you know me well enough to know where I stand on this.

The lawsuit filed by former NFL players against the league came out well before that of the NHL - in fact it's already been settled for $765 million.

So what if it came out first? You said the NFL has "more" of these issues. The fact that they were sued earlier, and addressed the problem first doesn't suggest that they have MORE of a problem.

If anything, it suggests that they're more responsible in how they've addressed it however. Which makes sense, I highly doubt there's anybody over at the NFL league office saying "Wait a minute, maybe if we let these guys punch each other after illegal hits to the head, they'll stop getting hurt".

You guys all keep "selling" the notion that fighting has some integral part of the actual game. And yet, time after time research suggests otherwise. So then you all move on to some new reason why fighting is absolutely vital to the game. It isn't.

I think you're a reasonable guy. I've talked to you before and have no reason to think you're a fool. I do, however, think that you (and other pro-fighting types) keep struggling to find reasons to validate fighting because if you don't find one sooner or later, you'll be forced to come to terms with the fact that something you find really enjoyable A) doesn't have any impact on the sport whatsoever, and B) is really, REALLY, ******* people's lives up.

[cnot19 191]

So you don't think concussions, brain damage, long-term cognitive and memory impairment, and the consequential lawsuits are a problem?

I do see those as a problem but I understand that hockey will most likely never be able to be concussion free. My question is do you think it still needs to be drastically reduced immediately? Or allow the evolution you mentioned before to continue? I honestly think that the evolution you previously mentioned reduction in fighting and increase in supplemental discipline as created a league that is fine with me as far as concussions go

Do you think hockey at the nhl level on the matter the nhl desires will ever be concussion free?

Further for the lawsuit I do not believe it's a winnig one. I think it will be settled to avoid negative or and legal fees. The nhl never did what the nfl did

So what if it came out first? You said the NFL has "more" of these issues. The fact that they were sued earlier, and addressed the problem first doesn't suggest that they have MORE of a problem.

If anything, it suggests that they're more responsible in how they've addressed it however. Which makes sense, I highly doubt there's anybody over at the NFL league office saying "Wait a minute, maybe if we let these guys punch each other after illegal hits to the head, they'll stop getting hurt".

You guys all keep "selling" the notion that fighting has some integral part of the actual game. And yet, time after time research suggests otherwise. So then you all move on to some new reason why fighting is absolutely vital to the game. It isn't.

I think you're a reasonable guy. I've talked to you before and have no reason to think you're a fool. I do, however, think that you (and other pro-fighting types) keep struggling to find reasons to validate fighting because if you don't find one sooner or later, you'll be forced to come to terms with the fact that something you find really enjoyable A) doesn't have any impact on the sport whatsoever, and B) is really, REALLY,f****** people's lives up.

Players say it does have an impact and I'll take their word over yours

Edited February 23, 2015 by cnot19

[kipwinger 8,524]

I do see those as a problem but I understand that hockey will most likely never be able to be concussion free. My question is do you think it still needs to be drastically reduced immediately? Or allow the evolution you mentioned before to continue? I honestly think that the evolution you previously mentioned reduction in fighting and increase in supplemental discipline as created a league that is fine with me as far as concussions go

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You agree that the health risks posed by repeated head trauma are a big problem, and that they need to be addressed. You just think that the league has already done so effectively by increasing supplemental discipline? And that, as a result of this supplemental discipline, cheap shots and the concussions they cause should fall over time AND fighting will happen less and less?

[cnot19 191]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You agree that the health risks posed by repeated head trauma are a big problem, and that they need to be addressed. You just think that the league has already done so effectively by increasing supplemental discipline? And that, as a result of this supplemental discipline, cheap shots and the concussions they cause should fall over time AND fighting will happen less and less?

Yes I do because that has already happened. I am just not on board with the idea that cheapshots and fighting will fall to zero right now. And I do not believe the league needs to take further active steps to decrease these things. I believe the supplemental discipline as it is right now is effective enough I think you do have a difference of opinion with the baseline that I have.

I also believe there is a baseline that fighting and headshots will fall to under the current system I'd say fighting is nearing it's bottom as we speak and I have no problem with the level it is now.

Your position seems to be to drastically increase supplemental discipline right now and eliminate fighting correct?

Edited February 23, 2015 by cnot19