Number One Center vs. Number One Defenseman

[kipwinger 8,756]

Short and simple debate to start another dreary, hockeyless, week.

In order to win a Cup, is it more important to have a first rate center, or a first rate defenseman? Why?

For discussion's sake, think about the centers for the 2011 Bruins, or the 2003 Devils. Conversely, think about the top defensemen for the 2009 Penguins or the 2004 Lightening.

Edited August 17, 2015 by kipwinger

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

Tough question, it's like asking if it is more important to have a steering wheel or a brake to drive a car.

A 1st-rate center and 1st-rate defenseman both are very complete players, are a huge part of both offensive and defensive department and in that very similar regarding their importance for a team. I go with the defenseman though, but only because of the slightly bigger minutes those guys are eating each night.

[Aznknight 139]

Offense wins games. Defense wins championships

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Depends on the makeup of the team. This is the boring answer, but there's no right answer.

In today's league, I'd take a top defenseman. Back in the higher scoring eras, I'd take a top center that can put up monster numbers.

[number9 3,297]

Number one goalie

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Number one goalie

Not in today's league. Most teams have backup goalies good enough to win a Cup if the right roster is in front of them.

15 years ago, you needed a Roy, Hasek, Brodeur or Belfour type name to win the Cup. Not anymore.

[number9 3,297]

Not in today's league. Most teams have backup goalies good enough to win a Cup if the right roster is in front of them.

15 years ago, you needed a Roy, Hasek, Brodeur or Belfour type name to win the Cup. Not anymore.

....So the Blackhawks? Cause the last time I can remember a non #1 winning the cup was Niemi. Pretty much every team competing for the cup has a legit #1.

Let me expand to say, I'm not sure which of having a number one C or a number one D is better, however both are pointless if you don't have a #1 enforcer to keep the flies off them.

[Helmethead 235]

I've always thought you need both. Keith and Toews. Doughty and Kopitar. These are the most recent examples. In 2006, the Canes won the Cup with no #1 dman. They had Staal as the #1 centre. The Rangers have lacked the #1 centre and I believe it is the main reason they have not won the Cup the past few years. Excellent blueline and a stud #1 goalie but no Cup. Arguments can be made for which is more important but I still believe you need both to win a Cup.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Offense wins games and defense championships. Obviously both are extremely important but I'd pick a stud number 1 a over a stud center.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

....So the Blackhawks? Cause the last time I can remember a non #1 winning the cup was Niemi. Pretty much every team competing for the cup has a legit #1.

Let me expand to say, I'm not sure which of having a number one C or a number one D is better, however both are pointless if you don't have a #1 enforcer to keep the flies off them.

Point is, you don't need an elite HOF #1 anymore. Goalie is the most important and easiest to find position right now in hockey with lots of solid goalies. They're just so well schooled nowadays and wear such giant pads. Finding a #1 goalie would be a priority, but not the first priority with how much there is to choose from.

[number9 3,297]

Point is, you don't need an elite HOF #1 anymore. Goalie is the most important and easiest to find position right now in hockey with lots of solid goalies. They're just so well schooled nowadays and wear such giant pads. Finding a #1 goalie would be a priority, but not the first priority with how much there is to choose from.

Really? Who's available? You'd think FA would be swimming with goalies and it wasn't.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Really? Who's available? You'd think FA would be swimming with goalies and it wasn't.

No one needs to be available. Teams can develop these guys in the minors. We did. So have numerous other teams.

[kipwinger 8,756]

No one needs to be available. Teams can develop these guys in the minors. We did. So have numerous other teams.

To play devil's advocate, don't you consistently argue that the Wings can't advance past the early rounds of the playoffs precisely because Howard can't hack it and win them a series?

[Helmethead 235]

Howard was on his way to winning the Vezina before he was injured.

[vladdy16 2,154]

Number One defenseman. A great defenseman keeps the puck out of your net and makes sure it goes into theirs, sometimes from center ice.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Number One defenseman. A great defenseman keeps the puck out of your net and makes sure it goes into theirs, sometimes from center ice.

Exactly it's been only 3 years now and I'm already begging to see another defender who is at least close to our former #5 but I think we'll have to wait a long time before another perfect human will hit the ice

[number9 3,297]

No one needs to be available. Teams can develop these guys in the minors. We did. So have numerous other teams.

Sorry, but no one's winning cups with backups. Great goalies are almost never traded these days because of how valuable they are. They pretty much never hit FA either. And they're still plenty of teams without legit goaltending and they almost exclusively suck.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

To play devil's advocate, don't you consistently argue that the Wings can't advance past the early rounds of the playoffs precisely because Howard can't hack it and win them a series?

If we had a great roster in front of him, Howard could continue to be average, and we'd advance through the playoffs. But we haven't had a great roster in a while, so we've needed something a bit better in net if we wanted to progress. We didn't get it from him.

But if we're strictly talking about building teams, I'd go for a defenseman, then centerman and then a goalie. As I said, there's a lot of capable goalies nowadays that could win with a top roster in front of them. It's easy to develop goalies, but building a team around them isn't so easy with the cap.

Sorry, but no one's winning cups with backups. Great goalies are almost never traded these days because of how valuable they are. They pretty much never hit FA either. And they're still plenty of teams without legit goaltending and they almost exclusively suck.

Those teams are behind the times.

So is a team like New York and Montreal. They have the two best goalies in the league, but their rosters come up short in the playoffs. If they had a slightly better roster at the expense of spending a little less on their goalies, they could make a deeper playoff run.

[number9 3,297]

If we had a great roster in front of him, Howard could continue to be average, and we'd advance through the playoffs. But we haven't had a great roster in a while, so we've needed something a bit better in net if we wanted to progress. We didn't get it from him.

But if we're strictly talking about building teams, I'd go for a defenseman, then centerman and then a goalie. As I said, there's a lot of capable goalies nowadays that could win with a top roster in front of them. It's easy to develop goalies, but building a team around them isn't so easy with the cap.

Those teams are behind the times.

So is a team like New York and Montreal. They have the two best goalies in the league, but their rosters come up short in the playoffs. If they had a slightly better roster at the expense of spending a little less on their goalies, they could make a deeper playoff run.

? Montreal and NY are no slouches when it comes to their skaters. And Look at the Kings and Bruins. Both had phenomenal goaltending during their runs

Goalie is the only player on the ice the full 60 minutes. Fact is theirs a reason teams build from the net out.

[number9 3,297]

If we had a great roster in front of him, Howard could continue to be average, and we'd advance through the playoffs. But we haven't had a great roster in a while, so we've needed something a bit better in net if we wanted to progress. We didn't get it from him.

But if we're strictly talking about building teams, I'd go for a defenseman, then centerman and then a goalie. As I said, there's a lot of capable goalies nowadays that could win with a top roster in front of them. It's easy to develop goalies, but building a team around them isn't so easy with the cap.

Those teams are behind the times.

So is a team like New York and Montreal. They have the two best goalies in the league, but their rosters come up short in the playoffs. If they had a slightly better roster at the expense of spending a little less on their goalies, they could make a deeper playoff run.

The only team winning with average goalies is the Hawks. Banking on having that level of a roster is more than a long shot

If we had a great roster in front of him, Howard could continue to be average, and we'd advance through the playoffs. But we haven't had a great roster in a while, so we've needed something a bit better in net if we wanted to progress. We didn't get it from him.

But if we're strictly talking about building teams, I'd go for a defenseman, then centerman and then a goalie. As I said, there's a lot of capable goalies nowadays that could win with a top roster in front of them. It's easy to develop goalies, but building a team around them isn't so easy with the cap.

Those teams are behind the times.

So is a team like New York and Montreal. They have the two best goalies in the league, but their rosters come up short in the playoffs. If they had a slightly better roster at the expense of spending a little less on their goalies, they could make a deeper playoff run.

Wait, so u moaned about Howard not being good enough all year and now you're saying it's the skaters fault?

[kipwinger 8,756]

Look at the top center, defenseman, and goalie for the final four teams in last year's playoffs:

Toews, Keith, Crawford

Getzlaf, Fowler, Andersen

Killorn/Johnson*, Hedman, Bishop

Brassard, McDonagh, Lundqvist

*Johnson was pretty clearly Tampa's best center. Still he played fewer minutes than Killorn, who centered Stamkos.

It's kind of hard to say which group of three is best. Maybe the differences between the four are almost entirely on the margins eh?

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

The only team winning with average goalies is the Hawks. Banking on having that level of a roster is more than a long shot

Wait, so u moaned about Howard not being good enough all year and now you're saying it's the skaters fault?

It's a combination of both things. But Mrazek outplayed Howard as the year went on, so of course I wanted the change. Who didn't around here?

[number9 3,297]

It's a combination of both things. But Mrazek outplayed Howard as the year went on, so of course I wanted the change. Who didn't around here?

ME

I just don't know how you can blame Howard for not being good enough all year, then argue that average goaltenders are good enough lol

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

ME

I just don't know how you can blame Howard for not being good enough all year, then argue that average goaltenders are good enough lol

Average goaltenders are good enough if there's a better team in front of them than what we have.

But this is moot, as Howard was outplayed by Mrazek. If Mrazek sucked all year, Howard wouldn't have gotten as much hate. But this was a case where a better goalie was ready to come out.

And before you go there, yes we lost in the first round with Mrazek. We wouldn't have likely won a game against Tampa with Howard in net. We just need to build a better team. Sadly, we won't have a team like LA or Chicago where you can win with pedestrian goaltending (Quick was average in the 2014 Cup run).

[number9 3,297]

Average goaltenders are good enough if there's a better team in front of them than what we have.

But this is moot, as Howard was outplayed by Mrazek. If Mrazek sucked all year, Howard wouldn't have gotten as much hate. But this was a case where a better goalie was ready to come out.

And before you go there, yes we lost in the first round with Mrazek. We wouldn't have likely won a game against Tampa with Howard in net. We just need to build a better team. Sadly, we won't have a team like LA or Chicago where you can win with pedestrian goaltending (Quick was average in the 2014 Cup run).

So let me get this straight, all the "we'll never win with Howard, he's not good enough" (before Mrazek emerged) was code for "he is good enough, what really need is better skaters"

Is that what you're saying?