Datsyuk Now 7th in All-Time Wings Goals

[kickazz 5,459]

Tayes is a great player. This thread got screwed up because BB (not Brigitte Bardot) decided to compare stats at age 27. Except, Datsyuk came into the league at age 23, while Tayes came in at age 19.

Of course Tayes is better at 27, but that's irrelevant. But to the other posters, lets not diminish Tayes accomplishments so far in his career. He's a very clutch player and pretty much any team would take him over their number 1 center at this point.

Sure. That's a good assessment. And let's leave it at that.

The issue comes in when people act like he's better than players in their primes i.e players like Datsyuk. Datsyuk in his prime statistically (even if scoring was higher back then) and skill wise was > Toews we see today. It's just the way it is. Toews is great but he's not what Datsyuk was.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Pasha was by far the most gifted player during his prime, period he was the better scorer, takeaway machine and whatever there is no denying but if the game is on the line and I can choose one player right now to come up big, his name is captain serious, Jonathan Toews.

Other than Crosby, Stamkos there isn't a player I would take over him

Edited February 22, 2016 by frankgrimes

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Pasha was by far the most gifted player during his prime, period he was the better scorer, takeaway machine and whatever there is no denying but if the game is on the line and I can choose one player right now to come up big, his name is captain serious, Jonathan Toews.

Other than Crosby, Stamkos there isn't a player I would take over him

I would actually take Kane over him in the clutch department, and that's no knock on Tayes. But I would add Ovechkin and Malkin to your list of better players. Kane as well. Ovechkin has carried that franchise for years. Malkin carried the Pens when Crosby was hurt. Tayes has never had to carry a team, except maybe when he first got there. They have enough stars around him where they complement each other.

Edited February 22, 2016 by GMRwings1983

[toby91_ca 620]

Using purely offensive stats, in their careers (hard to compare due to stage) Datsyuk is about 10% better in regular season (Toews the better goal scorer) and Toews is about 15-20% better in the playoffs.

Hard to just use stats though as both are worth much more beyond stats. I have a feeling we'd be overinflating Datsyuk's worth beyond stats and downplaying Toews...simply human nature.

I have always thought Toews has been overrated though....not because he's not good, but because some would call him the best player in the world, even though he trails Crosby in scoring by 30-40pts. Are his intangibles really worth that much?

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Using purely offensive stats, in their careers (hard to compare due to stage) Datsyuk is about 10% better in regular season (Toews the better goal scorer) and Toews is about 15-20% better in the playoffs.

Hard to just use stats though as both are worth much more beyond stats. I have a feeling we'd be overinflating Datsyuk's worth beyond stats and downplaying Toews...simply human nature.

I have always thought Toews has been overrated though....not because he's not good, but because some would call him the best player in the world, even though he trails Crosby in scoring by 30-40pts. Are his intangibles really worth that much?

Yes. He's the highest paid player in the game.

http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/rankings/

Sid makes more with endorsements, but only half a mil more.

[kickazz 5,459]

Using purely offensive stats, in their careers (hard to compare due to stage) Datsyuk is about 10% better in regular season (Toews the better goal scorer) and Toews is about 15-20% better in the playoffs.

Hard to just use stats though as both are worth much more beyond stats. I have a feeling we'd be overinflating Datsyuk's worth beyond stats and downplaying Toews...simply human nature.

I have always thought Toews has been overrated though....not because he's not good, but because some would call him the best player in the world, even though he trails Crosby in scoring by 30-40pts. Are his intangibles really worth that much?

Are you looking at where they stand as of now? Or are you looking at a specific point in their careers. PPG would obviously decrease as one ages.

[toby91_ca 620]

I was looking at overall career as of now and I agree that PPG should decrease as you age, but I figured it was close to a fair comparison as you can get since Datsyuk would have benefited more from higher scoring years from a league perspective combined with Toews theoretically not getting benefit from his prime years yet.

As I said before though...I do think Toews gets far more credit than he should, but only because he seems to be rated so high by many. The only hesitation I have is that the players seem to give him quite a bit of respect as well (e.g. Crosby having to call him before accepting Team Canada Captaincy). To me, he's more like a Bergeron type player (which is a very good player of course, but not the best in the world).

[kickazz 5,459]

Agreed. Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron are in the same league for me.

Edited February 22, 2016 by kickazz

[toby91_ca 620]

DatsyukianDekes....FYI, I agree, 57 points isn't great for someone that been touted as one of the best, but that's part of my point, he's been touted as one of the best without the offensive numbers to back it up. It's not like we are talking about a 100pt guy that's now projecting to score 57. We're talking about a 65-75pt guy that's down.

Also, just for the record, there is no Red Wing that is on pace to get to 57 points this year. Interestingly enough, Datsyuk has a ppg mark that would surpass that, but he's missed too many games.

[kickazz 5,459]

Isn't this the first year Toews hasn't played with Kane? Would explain the lack of offense?

[kliq 3,763]

Isn't this the first year Toews hasn't played with Kane? Would explain the lack of offense?

That just solidifies your point. If Towes was the best player in the world, it shouldn't matter who he plays with, he should bring up his linemates.

[kliq 3,763]

For the record, I am not saying Towes is a bad player, he is obviously a very talented hockey player. I just think he is overrated because he has been lucky enough to play on great teams, with great coaching with players better then himself.

As much as I hate Kane, and think Toews is 10 times the guy that Kane is, I believe Kane has been more instrumental to Chicago's success then Towes. I also think that Keith/Seabrook have been more instrumental to Chicago's success then Toews.

I lost a lot of respect for Toews when he had his temper tantrum against us and Seabrook had calm him down. BTW, who scored the gm.7 OT goal again.....it was Seabrook.

This is why you cant just count hardware when evaluating a talent. If Seabrook doesn't score that goal, they dont win that cup. If Crosby doesn't score his OT goal, Toews doesn't win a gold metal. The guy has had a ton of help.

[kickazz 5,459]

The other thing is that Toews is 27 and into his prime and produces at a rate similar to Zetterberg (Datsyuk actually has a higher PPG average than both) who is 35 years old. Toews has been on a better roster this part of the decade while Datsyuk and Z have not. The fact that older and slower D and Z can produce a similar rate as Toews who is on a better roster is also an indication to me of their skill level.

So even in the current low scoring era... An older Datsyuk still puts up more numbers on average than Toews. At least as far as PPG is concerned. Can you imagine if Datsyuk was 27 years old right now? I think his numbers would be a lot higher than Toews.

edit - just realized that Toews actually had the same amount of points as Zetterberg did last year in MORE games played. So he's technically a lower PPG player than 34 year old Hank last year.

Edited February 23, 2016 by kickazz

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

For the record, I am not saying Towes is a bad player, he is obviously a very talented hockey player. I just think he is overrated because he has been lucky enough to play on great teams, with great coaching with players better then himself.

As much as I hate Kane, and think Toews is 10 times the guy that Kane is, I believe Kane has been more instrumental to Chicago's success then Towes. I also think that Keith/Seabrook have been more instrumental to Chicago's success then Toews.

I lost a lot of respect for Toews when he had his temper tantrum against us and Seabrook had calm him down. BTW, who scored the gm.7 OT goal again.....it was Seabrook.

This is why you cant just count hardware when evaluating a talent. If Seabrook doesn't score that goal, they dont win that cup. If Crosby doesn't score his OT goal, Toews doesn't win a gold metal. The guy has had a ton of help.

Depends on what type of hardware but yes I completely agree. Someone stating Toews has 3 cups and using that as an argument to state they are better then player "X" really has no argument and is trolling.

[kliq 3,763]

Depends on what type of hardware but yes I completely agree. Someone stating Toews has 3 cups and using that as an argument to state they are better then player "X" really has no argument and is trolling.

Agreed. I am referring to cups when I talk about hardware meaning nothing.

The Hart trophy obviously means a lot, but I don't think Toews has ever even been in the conversation for that. He's just not at that level.

Has he even ever been a first team all star? (not to be confused with starting the all star game).

[Bill Berzeench 310]

I guess we'll completely ignore the part about highest paid player in the league since it's completely damning evidence of Toews' VALUE. Shhhhhhhhh, Bill. Don't bring up FACTS like that.

[kickazz 5,459]

I guess we'll completely ignore the part about highest paid player in the league since it's completely damning evidence of Toews' VALUE. Shhhhhhhhh, Bill. Don't bring up FACTS like that.

Cool facts. If only they made sense towards the actual topic..

Edited February 23, 2016 by kickazz

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Cool facts. If only they made sense towards the actual topic..

Funny how my points never make sense when they completely smash your argument into tiny little pieces that belong on a hostess crumb donette!!!

The smartest man in hockey advised his son to resign their captain to the highest paid contract in the league. The same captain who became captain in the shortest amount of games with his first NHL team. The same captain that holds a triple gold, 3 stanley cups, 1 conn smythe, and 1 selke by age 27. But but but but but, Datsyuk has dangles. Yah, Datsyuk has dangles. Cool. Toews has scoreboard. I'd rather have scoreboard than dangles. And saying Datsyuk didnt play with as good of players as Toews is just nonsense. It would take 4 hands to count the hall of famers Datsyuk has played with. Toews has a handful so far.

[kickazz 5,459]

Funny how my points never make sense when they completely smash your argument into tiny little pieces that belong on a hostess crumb donette!!!

The smartest man in hockey advised his son to resign their captain to the highest paid contract in the league. The same captain who became captain in the shortest amount of games with his first NHL team. The same captain that holds a triple gold, 3 stanley cups, 1 conn smythe, and 1 selke by age 27. But but but but but, Datsyuk has dangles. Yah, Datsyuk has dangles. Cool. Toews has scoreboard. I'd rather have scoreboard than dangles. And saying Datsyuk didnt play with as good of players as Toews is just nonsense. It would take 4 hands to count the hall of famers Datsyuk has played with. Toews has a handful so far.

Ehhh still a very weak argument. Anyways like 5 people have already hinted at how weak trophy argument is. Stick to it if it pleases you. Aint convincing anyone though. You're the only one who thinks Toews is better :lol:

Datsyuk in his prime >>>>>> Toews.

Live with it.

Edited February 23, 2016 by kickazz

[frankgrimes 1,836]

The other thing is that Toews is 27 and into his prime and produces at a rate similar to Zetterberg (Datsyuk actually has a higher PPG average than both) who is 35 years old. Toews has been on a better roster this part of the decade while Datsyuk and Z have not. The fact that older and slower D and Z can produce a similar rate as Toews who is on a better roster is also an indication to me of their skill level.

So even in the current low scoring era... An older Datsyuk still puts up more numbers on average than Toews. At least as far as PPG is concerned. Can you imagine if Datsyuk was 27 years old right now? I think his numbers would be a lot higher than Toews.

edit - just realized that Toews actually had the same amount of points as Zetterberg did last year in MORE games played. So he's technically a lower PPG player than 34 year old Hank last year.

The problem I have with this, is boxscores and points aren't telling the whole story all the time. Do people honestly believe, anyone of the Canadian or Hawks braintrust cares about what Toews does in the regular season? I honestly don't and why should do, when the game is on the line JT is more often than not coming through with a great game and that's what leadership is all about. Does he have a lot of help? For sure he does, I mean who wouldn't take Keith - Seabrook as their top pairing? 2 absolute studs that can provide offense and in terms of Seabrook also some physicality.

Kane may be the better player in terms of production but Toews is by far the better leader and 1.000x times the person Kane will ever be. I'm very sure Bowman and especially Scotty - probably the best coach and GM of all time - didn't just look at boxscores when deciding to give him that massive contract, they're looking at the total package and boy oh boy is that a fantastic one. There is not one player I wouldn't trade for such a "low production" superstar on this team. I agree with the AAV thing, yes, the guy is the highest paid player but only because the new CBA put in further limits to sign contracts. I'm sure Toews would have loved to sign a Crosbylike 114 million contract, which would have paid him less on a AAV basis but much more in the longterm.

Maybe it's personal preference but I'd rather take someone who is "just" good in the regular season but explodes in the playoffs and is known as captain serious because if your best player is also the hardest working one, it keeps everyone else in check. Guy is the Hawks version of Stevie Y

Edited February 23, 2016 by frankgrimes

[Bill Berzeench 310]

The problem I have with this, is boxscores and points aren't telling the whole story all the time. Do people honestly believe, anyone of the Canadian or Hawks braintrust cares about what Toews does in the regular season? I honestly don't and why should do, when the game is on the line JT is more often than not coming through with a great game and that's what leadership is all about. Does he have a lot of help? For sure he does, I mean who wouldn't take Keith - Seabrook as their top pairing? 2 absolute studs that can provide offense and in terms of Seabrook also some physicality.

Kane may be the better player in terms of production but Toews is by far the better leader and 1.000x times the person Kane will ever be. I'm very sure Bowman and especially Scotty - probably the best coach and GM of all time - didn't just look at boxscores when deciding to give him that massive contract, they're looking at the total package and boy oh boy is that a fantastic one. There is not one player I wouldn't trade for such a "low production" superstar on this team. I agree with the AAV thing, yes, the guy is the highest paid player but only because the new CBA put in further limits to sign contracts. I'm sure Toews would have loved to sign a Crosbylike 114 million contract, which would have paid him less on a AAV basis but much more in the longterm.

Maybe it's personal preference but I'd rather take someone who is "just" good in the regular season but explodes in the playoffs and is known as captain serious because if your best player is also the hardest working one, it keeps everyone else in check. Guy is the Hawks version of Stevie Y

Well said.

Kickazz, that's two of us now. And your words AGAIN are proven wrong. Fish in a barrel with you, dude.

[kliq 3,763]

The problem I have with this, is boxscores and points aren't telling the whole story all the time. Do people honestly believe, anyone of the Canadian or Hawks braintrust cares about what Toews does in the regular season? I honestly don't and why should do, when the game is on the line JT is more often than not coming through with a great game and that's what leadership is all about. Does he have a lot of help? For sure he does, I mean who wouldn't take Keith - Seabrook as their top pairing? 2 absolute studs that can provide offense and in terms of Seabrook also some physicality.

Kane may be the better player in terms of production but Toews is by far the better leader and 1.000x times the person Kane will ever be. I'm very sure Bowman and especially Scotty - probably the best coach and GM of all time - didn't just look at boxscores when deciding to give him that massive contract, they're looking at the total package and boy oh boy is that a fantastic one. There is not one player I wouldn't trade for such a "low production" superstar on this team. I agree with the AAV thing, yes, the guy is the highest paid player but only because the new CBA put in further limits to sign contracts. I'm sure Toews would have loved to sign a Crosbylike 114 million contract, which would have paid him less on a AAV basis but much more in the longterm.

Maybe it's personal preference but I'd rather take someone who is "just" good in the regular season but explodes in the playoffs and is known as captain serious because if your best player is also the hardest working one, it keeps everyone else in check. Guy is the Hawks version of Stevie Y

Not saying Toews is a bad player, he is a very good player, he's just not one of the top 3 in the world like some make him out to be. He's not even the best player on his team.

Take him away from the Hawks and replace him with Bergeron or Kopitar, I don't see the Hawks being any worse, or winning any less cups. Again, this is not a knock on him, I do respect the guy as a player (though like I said before, he lost some in my book when he had his temper tantrum against us). I use Bergeron as a comparable player because he is also a very good player and a very clutch player, and MO he is a good example of the level Toews is at. The big difference is Bergeron doesn't have "the machine" for lack of a better term behind him like Toews does. The NHL needs stars, I cant even say I blame him. When you can make a guy look larger then life, go for it. I'd rather it be Toews then Kane.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Datsyuk hasnt done anything without Lidstrom.

[kickazz 5,459]

Well said.

Kickazz, that's two of us now. And your words AGAIN are proven wrong. Fish in a barrel with you, dude.

Read previously Frank said Datsyuk was better in his prime and the most gifted player. :lol: Nice try.

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

Toews is a great player but overrated (in my opinion). Datsyuk in his prime was miles ahead as far as being a complete player, I mean 97 points and the Selke two years in a row? No question.