Karlsson on the move?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not opposed to a Nielsen buyout in a year or two. I'd welcome it. I just don't get why you don't think there's any way Abby gets bought out at any point...

Abby is in the same boat as Dekeyser. Well liked local boy. They'll keep him around for "Leadership". Nielsen will get the same treatment as Filppula.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Abby is in the same boat as Dekeyser. Well liked local boy. They'll keep him around for "Leadership". Nielsen will get the same treatment as Filppula.

Except Dekeyser is actually a decent NHL player. Abby is not in the same boat as anyone on this team. He is the boat anchor...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Except Dekeyser is actually a decent NHL player. Abby is not in the same boat as anyone on this team. He is the boat anchor...

Agree to disagree, It's not that I think u think ill of Abby, I think u think too highly of Dekeyser. Guy legitimately blows.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I love the idea of an elite defenceman like Karlsson on the Red Wings but how can we afford him? We are over the cap and our focus should honestly be on blowing this thing up and doing a full reset.

Normally, I would say that's a stupid move but we really f***ed ourselves over the past few years with bad contracts and need to focus long term as we're at least 3 years away from being a contender and it would just make zero sense to me to bring in Karlsson unless some idiot GM thinks it's a good idea to trade him for something stupid.

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Except Dekeyser is actually a decent NHL player. Abby is not in the same boat as anyone on this team. He is the boat anchor...

This.

DD is a #4 to #6 Dman on just about any team in the NHL today...It just so happens that he's been given more ice time against the  oppositions #1 line, and it shows because on any given night - he's our best guy back there.

Abdelkader is/was nothing special...IMHO - he owes a lifetime of Tim Horton's gift cards to both Hank/Dats for making him look good, and for helping him fool Holland into that 8 yr albatross of a contract.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Agree to disagree, It's not that I think u think ill of Abby, I think u think too highly of Dekeyser. Guy legitimately blows.

What exactly are we agreeing to disagree on though? Do you think DeKeyser is as bad as Abdelkader? If that's the case, then yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually think that though...

DeKeyser actually had a much better season this past season. If he can continue to put up 20+ points while playing capable defense, he's a valuable asset. An overpaid asset, but an asset nonetheless. I'm not saying he's a top pair defenseman by any stretch, but he's a solid #4/5. Overpaid by about $1M, but still a very useful player. Abdelkader could still maybe be a decent 4th line winger, but shouldn't be making any more than a mil or so. Overpaid by about $3M...

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

I love the idea of an elite defenceman like Karlsson on the Red Wings but how can we afford him? We are over the cap and our focus should honestly be on blowing this thing up and doing a full reset.

Normally, I would say that's a stupid move but we really f***ed ourselves over the past few years with bad contracts and need to focus long term as we're at least 3 years away from being a contender and it would just make zero sense to me to bring in Karlsson unless some idiot GM thinks it's a good idea to trade him for something stupid.

We're not over the cap though. We'll have approximately $15M in cap space this summer, which is more than enough to sign Karlsson. I just think it would be a terrible decision, for all the reasons that have already been stated.

We also don't have many bad contracts that will "f*** us" much longer. Nielsen and Abdelkader are the two worst in my opinion, and both can be moved / bought out over the next few seasons.

Also, we wouldn't be trading for Karlsson. He's a free agent, so we wouldn't have to give up any assets, just cap space. I still say it's a terrible idea for a team in our position. I hope Yzerman stays far away from Karlsson, and I think he will...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

What exactly are we agreeing to disagree on though? Do you think DeKeyser is as bad as Abdelkader? If that's the case, then yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually think that though...

DeKeyser actually had a much better season this past season. If he can continue to put up 20+ points while playing capable defense, he's a valuable asset. An overpaid asset, but an asset nonetheless. I'm not saying he's a top pair defenseman by any stretch, but he's a solid #4/5. Overpaid by about $1M, but still a very useful player. Abdelkader could still maybe be a decent 4th line winger, but shouldn't be making any more than a mil or so. Overpaid by about $3M...

I think Abdelkader is a 3rd liner probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think Dekyser is a #4 probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think their situations are more similar than they are different, respective of their different positions. Agreed that DK had a better season this year though.

11 hours ago, F.Michael said:

This.

DD is a #4 to #6 Dman on just about any team in the NHL today...It just so happens that he's been given more ice time against the  oppositions #1 line, and it shows because on any given night - he's our best guy back there.

Abdelkader is/was nothing special...IMHO - he owes a lifetime of Tim Horton's gift cards to both Hank/Dats for making him look good, and for helping him fool Holland into that 8 yr albatross of a contract.

 

Agree with DK and agree on Abby somewhat. He definitely benefited from playing in the top 6 in the past. I guess I don't think Abby is as useless as some of you do. I think he's a fine bottom 6 forward.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

21 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Abdelkader is a 3rd liner probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think Dekyser is a #4 probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think their situations are more similar than they are different, respective of their different positions. Agreed that DK had a better season this year though.

Agree with DK and agree on Abby somewhat. He definitely benefited from playing in the top 6 in the past. I guess I don't think Abby is as useless as some of you do. I think he's a fine bottom 6 forward.

This.

[F.Michael 4,590]

25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Abdelkader is a 3rd liner probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think Dekyser is a #4 probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think their situations are more similar than they are different, respective of their different positions. Agreed that DK had a better season this year though.

Agree with DK and agree on Abby somewhat. He definitely benefited from playing in the top 6 in the past. I guess I don't think Abby is as useless as some of you do. I think he's a fine bottom 6 forward.

Abdelkader now more than ever is a 3rd/4th liner...Especially when considering we have a impressive lil'Bert, and Mantha coming into their own, and both belong on the top 2 lines with ample pp time.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Abdelkader now more than ever is a 3rd/4th liner...Especially when considering we have a impressive lil'Bert, and Mantha coming into their own, and both belong on the top 2 lines with ample pp time.

Yeah I agree. Hopefully Hronek, Cholowski, and McIsaac force DK down as well soon.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Abdelkader is a 3rd liner probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think Dekyser is a #4 probably overpaid by 2 mill

I think their situations are more similar than they are different, respective of their different positions. Agreed that DK had a better season this year though.

Yeah, I think Abdelkader is a 4th liner at best at this stage of his career, and I guess that's why we disagree on how much he's overpaid by. But we both agree on what Dekeyser is, but what top 4 defenseman is making under $4M in the prime of their career? Anyway, I do agree that their situations are similar. They're both overpaid and overplayed, but I just think Abby's contract has more of a negative impact on the salary cap.

[Dabura 12,232]

I was really pleased with DeKeyser in that final stretch. He played hard minutes, he put up points (with no power play time), and he seemed to gel with Hronek. I actually have DeKeyser-Hronek down as my preferred top pairing for the beginning of next season. As I've said, if he's playing like that all of the time, his contract isn't a problem. Even when he's not 100% on his game, we don't really have someone who can adequately fill his shutdown role.

Abby...oof. He's a bottom-six roleplayer who can be a serviceable top-six complementary winger when there aren't any better options. He's slowing down. He's dealt with some significant injuries in recent seasons. He can't produce offense on his own.

Right now, I like DeKeyser way more than I like Abby. But then, I'd pretty much given up on DeKeyser before he went on that nice run to close out the season. So maybe Abby surprises me next season.

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

I was really pleased with DeKeyser in that final stretch. He played hard minutes, he put up points (with no power play time), and he seemed to gel with Hronek. I actually have DeKeyser-Hronek down as my preferred top pairing for the beginning of next season. As I've said, if he's playing like that all of the time, his contract isn't a problem. Even when he's not 100% on his game, we don't really have someone who can adequately fill his shutdown role.

Abby...oof. He's a bottom-six roleplayer who can be a serviceable top-six complementary winger when there aren't any better options. He's slowing down. He's dealt with some significant injuries in recent seasons. He can't produce offense on his own.

Right now, I like DeKeyser way more than I like Abby. But then, I'd pretty much given up on DeKeyser before he went on that nice run to close out the season. So maybe Abby surprises me next season.

You know when you have DK as your number 1 pair defensemen, your defense sucks. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by kickazz

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

On 4/26/2019 at 5:00 AM, krsmith17 said:

We're not over the cap though. We'll have approximately $15M in cap space this summer, which is more than enough to sign Karlsson. I just think it would be a terrible decision, for all the reasons that have already been stated.

We also don't have many bad contracts that will "f*** us" much longer. Nielsen and Abdelkader are the two worst in my opinion, and both can be moved / bought out over the next few seasons.

Also, we wouldn't be trading for Karlsson. He's a free agent, so we wouldn't have to give up any assets, just cap space. I still say it's a terrible idea for a team in our position. I hope Yzerman stays far away from Karlsson, and I think he will...

As of today we're $7 million over the cap but I'm going to assume that you mean heading into next season.

Regardless of that comment, why would you be opposed to going after a Karlsson player? (I never saw the reasons stated). He's 29 and an elite D man, IMO a top 5 D man in the league, I just don't see why you wouldn't want a guy like that?

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

As of today we're $7 million over the cap but I'm going to assume that you mean heading into next season.

Regardless of that comment, why would you be opposed to going after a Karlsson player? (I never saw the reasons stated). He's 29 and an elite D man, IMO a top 5 D man in the league, I just don't see why you wouldn't want a guy like that?

Last season's cap situation has nothing to do with signing a player for next season, so yeah, I obviously mean heading into next season...

Why would I be opposed to going after Karlsson?... We're currently a bad team in the midst of a rebuild. We should not be looking for any quick fixes. Adding Karlsson might make us a playoff contender, but certainly not a Stanley Cup contender. That, in my opinion, would be very short sighted. Stick with the process and continue to build through the draft. If we really want to add players through free agency or trade, they should be young players that can grow with our young core. Karlsson is 28 years old (29 next season). He'll be beyond his prime years when this team is realistically ready to compete. He's also had some injuries over the past few seasons that would be cause for concern. He's going to command HUGE money, long term. We may have plenty of cap space going into next season, but with Mantha, Athanasiou and Bertuzzi all needing new contracts (significant raises) in 2020, it would not be wise to invest $10+M into an aging Karlsson.

I'd much rather be bad for another season, continue to stock the cupboard, and see if we can sign Trouba in 2020. He's obviously not the same caliber player (offensively) as Karlsson, but he's three years younger, and would cost about half of what Karlsson would cost.

Any acquisitions we make in the next year or so should have the future in mind. There are three types of players I'd be open to acquiring this offseason.

A) (like previously mentioned) a young player that can grow with our young core.

B) a veteran player (not Vanek), signed for one year, that can be flipped at the deadline for a pick / prospect.

C) a salary dump from another team with one year remaining, that can get us a pick / prospect.

[Dabura 12,232]

16 hours ago, kickazz said:

You know when you have DK as your number 1 pair defensemen, your defense sucks. 

Fact.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

11 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Last season's cap situation has nothing to do with signing a player for next season, so yeah, I obviously mean heading into next season...

Why would I be opposed to going after Karlsson?... We're currently a bad team in the midst of a rebuild. We should not be looking for any quick fixes. Adding Karlsson might make us a playoff contender, but certainly not a Stanley Cup contender. That, in my opinion, would be very short sighted. Stick with the process and continue to build through the draft. If we really want to add players through free agency or trade, they should be young players that can grow with our young core. Karlsson is 28 years old (29 next season). He'll be beyond his prime years when this team is realistically ready to compete. He's also had some injuries over the past few seasons that would be cause for concern. He's going to command HUGE money, long term. We may have plenty of cap space going into next season, but with Mantha, Athanasiou and Bertuzzi all needing new contracts (significant raises) in 2020, it would not be wise to invest $10+M into an aging Karlsson.

I'd much rather be bad for another season, continue to stock the cupboard, and see if we can sign Trouba in 2020. He's obviously not the same caliber player (offensively) as Karlsson, but he's three years younger, and would cost about half of what Karlsson would cost.

Any acquisitions we make in the next year or so should have the future in mind. There are three types of players I'd be open to acquiring this offseason.

A) (like previously mentioned) a young player that can grow with our young core.

B) a veteran player (not Vanek), signed for one year, that can be flipped at the deadline for a pick / prospect.

C) a salary dump from another team with one year remaining, that can get us a pick / prospect.

I agree with all of this with the exception of B. I think a guy like Karlsson could certainly return a huge haul and would make us a better team and 28 is still young in today's NHL. I get the injury concerns, that's one thing that concerns me as well but I think he's a good option but as you stated, I think there are a lot better options out there.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

I agree with all of this with the exception of B. I think a guy like Karlsson could certainly return a huge haul and would make us a better team and 28 is still young in today's NHL. I get the injury concerns, that's one thing that concerns me as well but I think he's a good option but as you stated, I think there are a lot better options out there.

You disagree with B? You wouldn't want to sign a veteran (like a Pominville or Williams) to a one-year contract with the intent to flip them at the deadline for assets? Why not? We're a rebuilding team. Those are the exact moves a team in our situation should be trying to take advantage of.

What do you mean Karlsson could return a huge haul?

At 28 years old, most players are starting the downswing (back nine) of their career. Karlsson, being an elite player, should have another few really good years in him, assuming injuries don't derail him too much, but beyond that, I don't think he'll be worth close to what he'll end up getting paid. That's just my opinion.

[kickazz 5,459]

8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You disagree with B? You wouldn't want to sign a veteran (like a Pominville or Williams) to a one-year contract with the intent to flip them at the deadline for assets? Why not? We're a rebuilding team. Those are the exact moves a team in our situation should be trying to take advantage of.

What do you mean Karlsson could return a huge haul?

At 28 years old, most players are starting the downswing (back nine) of their career. Karlsson, being an elite player, should have another few really good years in him, assuming injuries don't derail him too much, but beyond that, I don't think he'll be worth close to what he'll end up getting paid. That's just my opinion.

Imagine if we didn’t keep Lidstrom of Chelios till their 40s. Ryan Suter still plays like he’s 27. Duncan Keith at 35 still puts up big minutes and played all 82 games. 

Karlsson being 28 year old defender must be an exception to defender longevity....

Erik Karlsson is one of the best defensemen in the NHL and will be for a long time. Mark it.

[Dabura 12,232]

8 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Karlsson being 28 year old defender must be an exception to defender longevity....

Erik Karlsson is one of the best defensemen in the NHL and will be for a long time. Mark it.

No one's denying he's one of the best defensemen in the NHL. The question is, Can you count on him staying at that level for the next however many years? If he didn't have a long history of significant leg-related injuries, there'd be no issue. But he does have a long history of significant leg-related injuries. And he's played an insane number of minutes already in his career. You have to wonder how well he's going to age. You have to wonder if he'll become an albatross halfway into his contract, maybe even sooner. If you're not getting Powerhouse Erik Karlsson for more than three years of that contract, then the contract is going to be a problem.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Dabura

[kickazz 5,459]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

No one's denying he's one of the best defensemen in the NHL. The question is, Can you count on him staying at that level for the next however many years? If he didn't have a long history of significant leg-related injuries, there'd be no issue. But he does have a long history of significant leg-related injuries. And he's played an insane number of minutes already in his career. You have to wonder how well he's going to age. You have to wonder if he'll become an albatross halfway into his contract, maybe even sooner. If you're not getting Powerhouse Erik Karlsson for more than three years of that contract, then the contract is going to be a problem.

I thought it’s his groin that’s been the issue this year? 

[Dabura 12,232]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

I thought it’s his groin that’s been the issue this year? 

See my reply in the other thread.

He's always got something going on with the lower body. Usually it's some part of the legs. This year it's a nagging groin problem.

It's a buyer beware situation. If we're going all in on Panarin and/or Karlsson, we have to make a serious push within the next three years. If it backfires and we end up weighed down by an enormous contract or two, everyone will be saying Yzerman is Holland 2.0.

[kickazz 5,459]

6 minutes ago, Dabura said:

See my reply in the other thread.

He's always got something going on with the lower body. Usually it's some part of the legs. This year it's a nagging groin problem.

It's a buyer beware situation. If we're going all in on Panarin and/or Karlsson, we have to make a serious push within the next three years. If it backfires and we end up weighed down by an enormous contract or two, everyone will be saying Yzerman is Holland 2.0.

I’m talking to you from the real world and demon world with these double convos.

I would still go for Karlsson if the contract is designed well. I.E NTC/NMC in first few years, front loaded contract with a decent cap.

I looked at his injury history and surgeries. None of it looked all that concerning to me. Knees are ok, ACL/MCL ok, lower back ok. Ankle surgery is bad. Probably his main red flag. Groin sounds irritating more than anything. But nothing others don’t go through.

None of us really know though, some of the time off is listed as “personal”

Edited April 28, 2019 by kickazz

[Dabura 12,232]

Just now, kickazz said:

I’m talking to you from the real world and demon world with these double convos.

I would still go for Karlsson if the contract is designed well. I.E NTC/NMC in first few years, front loaded contract with a decent cap.

I looked at his injury history and surgeries. None of it looked all that concerning to me. Knees are ok, ACL/MCL ok, lower back ok. Ankle surgery is bad. Probably his main red flag. Groin sounds irritating more than anything. But nothing others don’t go through.

I mean, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be ecstatic to have Karlsson on the team. Because it's Erik Karlsson. But the dude is always battling through something and it's always the lower body. For a guy who's played a lot of hard minutes and whose game is built on mobility...it's a concern.

I don't see why he'd want to become a Wing in the first place, so this is probably moot anyway.