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2019-20 Prospects Thread

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33 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Over appreciated by some, perhaps. But under appreciated by you. The truth is likely somewhere in between. 

The "truth"? And what is that? Is he or is he not an easily replaceable player? A dime a dozen... There are multiple players available as good or better than Ehn every single year in free agency.

33 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Neither of these 3 things will happen next season. 

That's not what I asked...

And what makes you so sure? None are crazy unrealistic.

Larkin hit 73 points last season (in 76 games). He can definitely hit 75 next season, if a lot of things go right. 

Zadina was on a 44 point pace last season (15 points in 28 games). He will be up for the full season next season, and again, if a lot of things go right, 50 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Ehn is the oldest of the three, and has never come close to 15 points. His career average is 0.114 points per game, which is 9 points over 82 games. He's the only one of the three that is not under contract (yet), and isn't guaranteed a spot in the top 12.

I'll say most likely, Larkin, then Zadina, then Ehn...

EDIT: And if "next season" is the sticking point for you, because we're going to be BAD again... What do you think is more / less likely? Ehn averages 15ish points per season over the next 10 seasons, Zadina averages 50ish points per season over the next 10 seasons, or Larkin averages 75ish points per season over the next 10 seasons? (all with the Wings of course)...

My order stays the same, Larkin, Zadina, Ehn. And Zadina is a lot closer to Larkin, then Ehn is to Zadina...

Edited by krsmith17

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

The "truth"? And what is that? Is he or is he not an easily replaceable player? A dime a dozen... There are multiple players available as good or better than Ehn every single year in free agency.

That's not what I asked...

And what makes you so sure? None are crazy unrealistic.

Larkin hit 73 points last season (in 76 games). He can definitely hit 75 next season, if a lot of things go right. 

Zadina was on a 44 point pace last season (15 points in 28 games). He will be up for the full season next season, and again, if a lot of things go right, 50 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Ehn is the oldest of the three, and has never come close to 15 points. His career average is 0.114 points per game, which is 9 points over 82 games. He's the only one of the three that is not under contract (yet), and isn't guaranteed a spot in the top 12.

I'll say most likely, Larkin, then Zadina, then Ehn...

EDIT: And if "next season" is the sticking point for you, because we're going to be BAD again... What do you think is more / less likely? Ehn averages 15ish points per season over the next 10 seasons, Zadina averages 50ish points per season over the next 10 seasons, or Larkin averages 75ish points per season over the next 10 seasons? (all with the Wings of course)...

My order stays the same, Larkin, Zadina, Ehn. And Zadina is a lot closer to Larkin, then Ehn is to Zadina...

I know it's not what you asked, but it'll be the truth, as neither of the three players will hit those totals in a shortened season.

In the end, we got plenty of time to see what we have in Ehn over the next couple years. If he builds upon his already solid defensive game and becomes capable of contributing 15 points a season, lovely. I just don't understand the urgency you seem to have for replacing fourth line players with the state the rest of the roster is in.

There is literally zero risk in seeing if Ehn can become a more complete bottom 6 player. Once we're a competitive team, the fourth line can quite easily be addressed then. Like you said, those types of players are a dime a dozen.  

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33 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I know it's not what you asked, but it'll be the truth, as neither of the three players will hit those totals in a shortened season.

So why answer a question I didn't ask? The question was, which is more likely? It was more so directed at CRL though, because he's the one that seems to believe that a 24 year old Ehn has the potential to grow into a bigger role, but Larkin and Zadina are what they are, at 23 and 20 respectively...

38 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

In the end, we got plenty of time to see what we have in Ehn over the next couple years. If he builds upon his already solid defensive game and becomes capable of contributing 15 points a season, lovely. I just don't understand the urgency you seem to have for replacing fourth line players with the state the rest of the roster is in.

There is literally zero risk in seeing if Ehn can become a more complete bottom 6 player. Once we're a competitive team, the fourth line can quite easily be addressed then. Like you said, those types of players are a dime a dozen.  

Where are you getting my "urgency" to replace Ehn? I've said several times that there is no rush, but I do think it's inevitable. I don't care if we re-sign him or not. I personally wouldn't, but if we do, it's not a big deal.

So we're in agreement then? Ehn is a dime a dozen player... aka replacement level...

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

So why answer a question I didn't ask? The question was, which is more likely? It was more so directed at CRL though, because he's the one that seems to believe that a 24 year old Ehn has the potential to grow into a bigger role, but Larkin and Zadina are what they are, at 23 and 20 respectively...

Where are you getting my "urgency" to replace Ehn? I've said several times that there is no rush, but I do think it's inevitable. I don't care if we re-sign him or not. I personally wouldn't, but if we do, it's not a big deal.

So we're in agreement then? Ehn is a dime a dozen player... aka replacement level...

Ehn barely cracked 100 career games. It's not crazy to think he can grow into an important bottom 6 piece. Most players in the league are "replacable" based on their stats after only playing 100 or so NHL games. 

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33 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Ehn barely cracked 100 career games. It's not crazy to think he can grow into an important bottom 6 piece. Most players in the league are "replacable" based on their stats after only playing 100 or so NHL games. 

When people talk about potential, it's usually on players that were big point producers in lower leagues, but haven't yet reached said potential in the NHL. That's not really the case with Ehn though. He's never really been a big point producer. He's a warm body on the worst team in the NHL. If he were waived, I highly doubt a single team would claim him.

Ehn's ceiling is what? 15 points? There are countless players available in free agency, college, Europe, and in every single farm system (including ours), that can put up as good, or better production, while not giving up any more on the defensive side.

It appears we may see Kadeykin come over from Russia next season. I'm not saying he will be Ehn's replacement, but maybe...

Ehn is very replaceable (that's not saying he MUST be replaced ASAP...), and I stand by that. Agree to disagree...

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18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, they probably are, but...

... they haven't really been given much of an opportunity. Ehn has been given an opportunity, and has already proven that he's "replacement level"...

What kind of logic is that? They had every opportunity to make the team that Ehn did, but they didn't make it and Ehn did. If Ehn is set in stone replacement level than those players are set in stone worse than replacement level.

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Grow into what? A defensive specialist? No thanks... Ehn is "good" defensively, but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.

I'll take a Perlini with offensive potential, over an Ehn, with zero offensive potential any day.

You do know how many players there are in the league with "offensive short-comings" right? Glendening has offensive short-coming. Is he replacement level too?

That begs the question... so you don't think PKers are at all important? Is that what I'm gathering? You'd rather fill out a roster with 3-6 Brendan Perlini's? Am I understanding you right?

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Emmerton and Andersson both made the big club at around the same age (difference of a few months). Both were more productive, and have (and maybe will) play more games in a Red Wings Wings jersey than Ehn.

Oh goodie, I get to use your favorite trope on you

Do you even watch the games???

Emmerton and Andersson brought absolutely nothing to the table. Ehn is a reliable defensive forward.

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Drew Miller sucked, despite his "amazing penalty killing"...

Drew Miller was a useful PKer for 8 years. I don't understand this perpetual need you have to punch down and s*** on small-role players. If Drew Miller was playing top line with Datsyuk and Zetterberg I would see your point, but he wasn't. He did his job on the 4th line at an acceptable level for 8 years for this team. I have no complaints about the guy.

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not saying we have to replace Ehn next season, but most of our bottom six needs to be upgraded in the next couple seasons if we're going to turn things around, and that includes Ehn. THAT'S what I mean by "replacement level"...

Buddy we don't have an acceptable top6. That's what needs to be built over the next couple seasons. You're talking about needing to change the brake pads on a car that currently has no engine. Why bother.

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

About 5 years too long, if you ask me...

So why did the Red Wings keep Drew Miller around for not 1, not 2, not 3, but 5 extra unneeded seasons? Was he blackmailing them? Ken screwing his wife? Or is your brain just that much bigger than the entire Red Wings brass? I mean they released the guy at 32/33 years old. This isn't some Cleary situation. They squeezed his best hockey years out and let him go...

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

NO!

You will do it, and you will feel much better afterwards

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Chips in 15-20 points a season? You do realize his career high (albeit in two 3/4 seasons) is 9. He hasn't even amassed 15 points in 114 games...

Ah yes, what's the perpetual excuse for Larkin these days? The teams bad it's not his fault his production is dipping!!

^ I'll go with that one

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree here as well. I'm okay with a revolving door on that 12th/13th forward spot. I'd rather give up on the Ehn experiment now, and try Turgeon next season. If he sucks too, try Pearson the next season. If he sucks too, try Soderblom the next season. If he sucks too... you get the point..

No roster spot should EVER be a revolving door of bad players. Every roster position is valuable and should never be willingly wasted on a bad player just because "lol lets try something new". If Turgeon, Pearson, or Soderblom or whomever is truly better than Ehn they should make the roster and force the coach to scratch Ehn.

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I do find it funny though, that you will defend Ehn because of his age and "potential", but you're ready to give up on Larkin and Zadina, who are both younger / much younger, with MUCH higher potential...

What do you think is more / less likely? Ehn hits 15+ points next season, Zadina hits 50+ points next season, or Larkin hits 75+ points next season? (all with the Wings of course)...

Well then you completely misinterpret how I see assets.

I'm not giving up on Zadina and Larkin, I'm telling you we have another grouping of Tatars and Nyquists being built, and that's a waste of time. We know how that ends. Therefore I'm arguing that we extract value from these players by trading them while they still have their youth. Ehn's not gonna garner any significant assets so I feel no urgency to trade him.

2020-21: Zadina begins his sophomore slump and nets you 35 pts. Larkin continues being a 2C in over his head with 60 some points. Ehn is promoted to 3C and helps out with 25 pts. Check em.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What kind of logic is that? They had every opportunity to make the team that Ehn did, but they didn't make it and Ehn did. If Ehn is set in stone replacement level than those players are set in stone worse than replacement level.

Nah, I don't buy that. Svechnikov is currently below Ehn on the depth chart. That doesn't mean he'll stay below him. Ehn just got to the show first, because he can be trusted defensively. That doesn't make him a better player though.

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You do know how many players there are in the league with "offensive short-comings" right? Glendening has offensive short-coming. Is he replacement level too?

No. I like Glendening. I don't like Ehn. Try to keep up. Seriously though, Glendening is better than Ehn at just about every facet of the game; offensively, defensively, faceoffs, penalty killing, etc...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That begs the question... so you don't think PKers are at all important? Is that what I'm gathering? You'd rather fill out a roster with 3-6 Brendan Perlini's? Am I understanding you right?

Penalty killers are important, but their importance is massively overvalued by some. Just about any NHL quality player can learn how to defend and kill penalties. I'm a big proponent of having skilled players kill penalties. Enough of these utility guys that can defend, but do nothing else notably well.

Not 3-6 Brendan Perlini's, no. I don't give a f*** about Perlini. But 3-6 players that play well in all three zones, and can chip in offensively, yes. I would take Perlini over Ehn though, but I'm sure that's clear by now...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Emmerton and Andersson brought absolutely nothing to the table. Ehn is a reliable defensive forward.

Emmerton and Andersson brought as much value to the team as Ehn... and that's zero...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Drew Miller was a useful PKer for 8 years. I don't understand this perpetual need you have to punch down and s*** on small-role players. If Drew Miller was playing top line with Datsyuk and Zetterberg I would see your point, but he wasn't. He did his job on the 4th line at an acceptable level for 8 years for this team. I have no complaints about the guy.

Not small role players in general. Our small role players. Because they suck. I don't understand this perpetual need you have to punch down and s*** on our only good players...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Buddy we don't have an acceptable top6. That's what needs to be built over the next couple seasons. You're talking about needing to change the brake pads on a car that currently has no engine. Why bother.

Meh. Our top six needs work as well, but we have 3-4 capable top six forwards, 2-3 of which you want to trade... and you're coming at me for labeling a bottom six player as replacement level... Yeah, okay bud...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So why did the Red Wings keep Drew Miller around for not 1, not 2, not 3, but 5 extra unneeded seasons? Was he blackmailing them? Ken screwing his wife? Or is your brain just that much bigger than the entire Red Wings brass? I mean they released the guy at 32/33 years old. This isn't some Cleary situation. They squeezed his best hockey years out and let him go...

Management and coaches make mistakes all the f***ing time... Afterall, they are human... Do I think I know better than them? Nope. But I'm sure there are some decisions any one of us would make that would be better for the organization. Just as I'm sure there are a LOT more that would be disastrous for the organization...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ah yes, what's the perpetual excuse for Larkin these days? The teams bad it's not his fault his production is dipping!!

^ I'll go with that one

You're going to use that one on a defensive forward without an offensive bone in his body? Sure...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No roster spot should EVER be a revolving door of bad players. Every roster position is valuable and should never be willingly wasted on a bad player just because "lol lets try something new". If Turgeon, Pearson, or Soderblom or whomever is truly better than Ehn they should make the roster and force the coach to scratch Ehn.

Sure. And eventually the decision to scratch Ehn for x, y, or z player will be made. Do you know what percentage of 4th line players play more than 5 seasons in the NHL? Let alone for the same team? Hint: it's low...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well then you completely misinterpret how I see assets.

I'm not giving up on Zadina and Larkin, I'm telling you we have another grouping of Tatars and Nyquists being built, and that's a waste of time. We know how that ends. Therefore I'm arguing that we extract value from these players by trading them while they still have their youth. Ehn's not gonna garner any significant assets so I feel no urgency to trade him.

A) I think your wrong on your assessment of Larkin and Zadina. B) They're not going anywhere. 

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

2020-21: Zadina begins his sophomore slump and nets you 35 pts. Larkin continues being a 2C in over his head with 60 some points. Ehn is promoted to 3C and helps out with 25 pts. Check em.

LOL at Ehn finishing the season 10 points behind Zadina...

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40 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Nah, I don't buy that. Svechnikov is currently below Ehn on the depth chart. That doesn't mean he'll stay below him. Ehn just got to the show first, because he can be trusted defensively. That doesn't make him a better player though.

Aha so you admit Ehn is defensively astute. The awakening begins.

41 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No. I like Glendening. I don't like Ehn. Try to keep up. Seriously though, Glendening is better than Ehn at just about every facet of the game; offensively, defensively, faceoffs, penalty killing, etc...

Glendening ain't never hit a 25 pt season. Drew Miller has. But Drew is worthless. okay.

And Ehn will be at that level as he ages up here. Kids got real good potential. The gap between he and glendening defensively isn't as big as u'd love to make it out to be.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Penalty killers are important, but their importance is massively overvalued by some. Just about any NHL quality player can learn how to defend and kill penalties. I'm a big proponent of having skilled players kill penalties. Enough of these utility guys that can defend, but do nothing else notably well.

Not 3-6 Brendan Perlini's, no. I don't give a f*** about Perlini. But 3-6 players that play well in all three zones, and can chip in offensively, yes. I would take Perlini over Ehn though, but I'm sure that's clear by now...

So why isn't everyone on the team as good at defense as Glendog and Ehn? Any NHL player can learn it, right?

Perlini is about just as good at offense as Ehn is and way worse definitively. Hows that work out?

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Emmerton and Andersson brought as much value to the team as Ehn... and that's zero...

Which is how I know you don't watch the games.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Not small role players in general. Our small role players. Because they suck. I don't understand this perpetual need you have to punch down and s*** on our only good players..

s***ting on our 2nd liners is punching down? You do understand the figure of speech no?

Glendening sucks now gotcha.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Meh. Our top six needs work as well, but we have 3-4 capable top six forwards, 2-3 of which you want to trade... and you're coming at me for labeling a bottom six player as replacement level... Yeah, okay bud...

Oh if you wanna put it in those terms, every single one of our players is replaceable.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Management and coaches make mistakes all the f***ing time... Afterall, they are human... Do I think I know better than them? Nope. But I'm sure there are some decisions any one of us would make that would be better for the organization. Just as I'm sure there are a LOT more that would be disastrous for the organization...

It's just remarkable that you knew this for 5 seasons and the org thought the opposite for all 5 of those. Congrats, that's impressive big brain work there.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

You're going to use that one on a defensive forward without an offensive bone in his body? Sure...

how many points does a player have to score for the teams play to affect his offensive numbers? Just like to know what the arbitrary distinction that you've come up with is.

 

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure. And eventually the decision to scratch Ehn for x, y, or z player will be made. Do you know what percentage of 4th line players play more than 5 seasons in the NHL? Let alone for the same team? Hint: it's low...

Ur talking about non-NHL pllayers like emmerton and Andersson, not real 4th liner like glendog and ehn. big difference.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

A) I think your wrong on your assessment of Larkin and Zadina. B) They're not going anywhere. 

LOL at Ehn finishing the season 10 points behind Zadina...

Ehn and Zadina will prolly be pllaying on the same 3rd lline next season at points

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1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Glendening ain't never hit a 25 pt season. Drew Miller has. But Drew is worthless. okay.

And Ehn will be at that level as he ages up here. Kids got real good potential. The gap between he and glendening defensively isn't as big as u'd love to make it out to be.

Never said worthless. 

"real good potential"... lol you gotta be trolling...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So why isn't everyone on the team as good at defense as Glendog and Ehn? Any NHL player can learn it, right?

Because other players concentrate on generating offense. And yes, most can learn how to play defense...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Perlini is about just as good at offense as Ehn is and way worse definitively. Hows that work out?

They're the same age (Perlini is 3 weeks younger), Perlini has 76 points, while Ehn has a whopping 14... Yeah, about just as good...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Glendening sucks now gotcha.

You just keep trying to put words in my mouth, when I say the exact opposite...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh if you wanna put it in those terms, every single one of our players is replaceable.

I know. Everyone sux...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ur talking about non-NHL pllayers like emmerton and Andersson, not real 4th liner like glendog and ehn. big difference.

No, I'm talking about 4th liners in general, since we don't know which path Ehn is going to take. You think he's closer to a Luke Glendening... I think he's closer to a Joakim Andersson...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ehn and Zadina will prolly be pllaying on the same 3rd lline next season at points

*cringes*

You're probably right, which is very sad...

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12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I'm talking about 4th liners in general, since we don't know which path Ehn is going to take. You think he's closer to a Luke Glendening... I think he's closer to a Joakim Andersson...

4th liners in general are defensive players (like Ehn). If they were any good at offense they wouldn't be on the 4th line. No one has the depth to ice 12 forwards with offensive abilities. You need defensive and PK specialists too. Ehn is perfectly suited for that role and does a good job. Reasonable fans appreciate the "blue collar" guys too, and aren't solely focused on the shiny/flashy guys.

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37 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

4th liners in general are defensive players (like Ehn). If they were any good at offense they wouldn't be on the 4th line. No one has the depth to ice 12 forwards with offensive abilities. You need defensive and PK specialists too. Ehn is perfectly suited for that role and does a good job. Reasonable fans appreciate the "blue collar" guys too, and aren't solely focused on the shiny/flashy guys.

It's cute how people are trying to turn me not being a fan of Ehn into me not liking any depth players... That's not the case at all. 

Defensive "specialists" are becoming less and less common in the NHL, just like goons have. Teams do have 12+ offensive forwards to roll 4 "scoring" lines. Most teams' (old school coaches) are just reluctant to do it. Some of the best penalty killers in the league are offensively gifted forwards. The belief that penalty killers need to be pure defensive minded, zero offense, is an oldschool mentality. Bergeron, Giroux, and Couturier have been among the leagues best penalty killers for some time now. Zibanejad and Aho are also great penalty killers, and threat every time they're out there.

The need for Christoffer Ehn's in an NHL lineup is diminishing, unless he can prove to be capable in other areas of the game... 

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13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Never said worthless. 

"real good potential"... lol you gotta be trolling...

Well that's the impression I'm getting. I mean you honestly suggested Drew Miller was artificially kept on the team for FIVE years too long.

Glendening is a very defensively responsible player. But then so was Drew Miller and so is Ehn. Glendog hasn't revolutionized the PK game or anything... the gap between his abilities and Ehn or Millers is A LOT closer than they are wide. I absolutely think if you consider Ehn or prime Miller "who cares replacement level" well then Glendog is in the same boat. And that's just ridiculous. These players have real value.

I do think Ehn has real good potential. Potential to be real good Glendening type player for us. Glendog wasn't the coaches favorite big dick on the team till like 26/27 and Ehn is a fresh 24. I'm hoping his prime years look a lot like Glendenings. He certainly plays the same style of overly textbook responsible hustle hockey.

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Because other players concentrate on generating offense. And yes, most can learn how to play defense...

So then why isn't Erne as defensively astute as Glendog or Ehn? Because he's concentrating on offense, really?
Same question for Perlini... If he's too busy focused on offense, well then he's not focusing very hard lol

By your logic we should never even worry about PKers. We should just throw Jurco's and Perlini's in there willy nilly cause they can learn to be just as good as glendog apparently. And by that same logic that would mean Glendening is a pretty useless player who's only scoring us 20 pts a season at 30. He shoulda been waived for younger players "with more offensive potential" a while ago. But I think you and I both know that's not the case. Defensively astute bottom6ers do have value.

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

They're the same age (Perlini is 3 weeks younger), Perlini has 76 points, while Ehn has a whopping 14... Yeah, about just as good...

I mean if you wanna play dumb this will be easy for me.

Why does a player like Jurco get demoted, but Ott and Miller remain with the team? Jurco scored more points than those two!
Why is Erne probably gonna get re-signed, but Perlini is not? Perlini's got a lot more points over his career than Erne!

Because Perlini is a blackhole of a player if he's not scoring... and he's not scoring. Ehn and Glendening on the other hand don't score a lot either but provide hustle, defense, and good decision making every single shift. Even Erne does more of this than Perlini. It's really not hard to see.

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You just keep trying to put words in my mouth, when I say the exact opposite...

A + B = C

"Our small role players suck"
Glendening is a small role player

Therefore is can be logically deduced that you think Glendening sucks. No? Please elaborate.

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I know. Everyone sux...

Did you watch the season? There isn't one untouchable player on this team.

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I'm talking about 4th liners in general, since we don't know which path Ehn is going to take. You think he's closer to a Luke Glendening... I think he's closer to a Joakim Andersson...

Andersson isn't a 4th liner. He's a non-NHLer who was out of the league at 27 and never played a full 82 game season. He got tried on the 4th line for 200 games and then got let go as soon as his youth was gone and prime was at hand, because he never amounted to anything that was any good.

Miller and Glendog were/are NHL 4th line staples.

So no, you're not talking about an NHL 4th liner anymore than I would be talking about an NHL 1st liner when I talk about Abdelkader because he played on the 1st line for 100+ games of his career.

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

*cringes*

You're probably right, which is very sad...

You completely went around my question about what the arbitrary line you draw is for players offensive numbers being affected by team play.

Why is "the team being bad" used as an excuse for Larkin's lack of production, but the same can't be said of Ehn, however lesser that production might be? And if there's good reason for that case what is the distinction? Only top 6 players get their production affected by team play? Only players who score 40 pts or more? Where's the line according to you? Help me understand.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

It's cute how people are trying to turn me not being a fan of Ehn into me not liking any depth players... That's not the case at all. 

Defensive "specialists" are becoming less and less common in the NHL, just like goons have. Teams do have 12+ offensive forwards to roll 4 "scoring" lines. Most teams' (old school coaches) are just reluctant to do it. Some of the best penalty killers in the league are offensively gifted forwards. The belief that penalty killers need to be pure defensive minded, zero offense, is an oldschool mentality. Bergeron, Giroux, and Couturier have been among the leagues best penalty killers for some time now. Zibanejad and Aho are also great penalty killers, and threat every time they're out there.

The need for Christoffer Ehn's in an NHL lineup is diminishing, unless he can prove to be capable in other areas of the game... 

Sure you can have your Datsyuk and Zetterberg play PK. Why not? They're the best defensive players on the team.

That doesn't diminish the need for defensively responsible players that round out the roster.

Again, if you're arguing that there is no need for defensive specialists on the team, you are 100% arguing there is no need for Glendening on the team. That's what he is.

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Also, defensive specialists ARE NOT "becoming less and less common".  That's just b.s. made up to win this argument.  Every team has a 4th line full of "defensive specialist".  Just like they always have.  Point to any roster in the league and I'll happily point out the defensive specialists. 

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16 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Offense pays more than defense. The salary cap does not allow for teams to carry 4 lines of decent offense anymore. Teams are forced to carry cheaper forwards on the team now. That usually means defensive guys.

Even when there was no salary cap teams didn't have 4 "offensive" lines.  Look at the 2002 Wings. All the money in the world, a willingness to spend it, free agents dying to play here, and we still had the Grind line and Devereaux.  

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57 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Even when there was no salary cap teams didn't have 4 "offensive" lines.  Look at the 2002 Wings. All the money in the world, a willingness to spend it, free agents dying to play here, and we still had the Grind line and Devereaux.  

******* Mark Hartigan played during the 2008 cup run for god sakes. 

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22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well that's the impression I'm getting. I mean you honestly suggested Drew Miller was artificially kept on the team for FIVE years too long.

Maybe slight exaggeration, but definitely held on a couple years too long in my opinion.

22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Glendening is a very defensively responsible player. But then so was Drew Miller and so is Ehn. Glendog hasn't revolutionized the PK game or anything... the gap between his abilities and Ehn or Millers is A LOT closer than they are wide. I absolutely think if you consider Ehn or prime Miller "who cares replacement level" well then Glendog is in the same boat. And that's just ridiculous. These players have real value.

I disagree. I see Glendening as one of the better 4th line centers in the league. I see Ehn as a borderline NHL player. You obviously disagree, but to me, that's a significant gap.

22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I do think Ehn has real good potential. Potential to be real good Glendening type player for us. Glendog wasn't the coaches favorite big dick on the team till like 26/27 and Ehn is a fresh 24. I'm hoping his prime years look a lot like Glendenings. He certainly plays the same style of overly textbook responsible hustle hockey.

Maybe. I don't see it though...

22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So then why isn't Erne as defensively astute as Glendog or Ehn? Because he's concentrating on offense, really?
Same question for Perlini... If he's too busy focused on offense, well then he's not focusing very hard lol

Like I said, *most* NHL players. More so referring to "good" NHL players. I'd put Erne slightly ahead of Ehn in overall skill level, but he's still a pretty bad player, relatively speaking. 

22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

By your logic we should never even worry about PKers. We should just throw Jurco's and Perlini's in there willy nilly cause they can learn to be just as good as glendog apparently. And by that same logic that would mean Glendening is a pretty useless player who's only scoring us 20 pts a season at 30. He shoulda been waived for younger players "with more offensive potential" a while ago. But I think you and I both know that's not the case. Defensively astute bottom6ers do have value.

How the f*** is that "my logic"? I've never said anything of the such... We have plenty of players capable of killing penalties. Glendening and Helm are our top two PK guys. Filppula and Nielsen are decent. If Abdelkader is dressing, he should be on the PK. Veleno and Rasmussen could be options coming in the next couple years. You could acquire another, better version of Ehn via trade or free agency... There are options...

23 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why is Erne probably gonna get re-signed, but Perlini is not? Perlini's got a lot more points over his career than Erne!

Because Perlini is a blackhole of a player if he's not scoring... and he's not scoring. Ehn and Glendening on the other hand don't score a lot either but provide hustle, defense, and good decision making every single shift. Even Erne does more of this than Perlini. It's really not hard to see.

I don't care about Perlini. Again, I'd take him over Ehn, but it's whatever to me. Also, until Ehn proves he can be as good of a shutdown guy as Glendening, and puts up 20+ points in a season, stop lumping them together. As of now, they're not close to the same calibre player.

23 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

A + B = C

"Our small role players suck"
Glendening is a small role player

Therefore is can be logically deduced that you think Glendening sucks. No? Please elaborate.

Except for the fact that I keep saying that Glendening is really good, and Ehn is not...

23 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Andersson isn't a 4th liner. He's a non-NHLer who was out of the league at 27 and never played a full 82 game season. He got tried on the 4th line for 200 games and then got let go as soon as his youth was gone and prime was at hand, because he never amounted to anything that was any good.

Miller and Glendog were/are NHL 4th line staples.

So no, you're not talking about an NHL 4th liner anymore than I would be talking about an NHL 1st liner when I talk about Abdelkader because he played on the 1st line for 100+ games of his career.

What the f*** are you talking about? Hence why I said, we don't know which path Ehn is going to take... Right now, he's being utilized on the 4th line of the worst team in the league. Andersson was also once utilized on the 4th line. Ehn may fade out the same way Andersson did (what I think will happen), or he may end up a stud, shutdown 4th line center like Glendening (what you think will happen), or he may end up somewhere in between (probably most likely)...

23 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You completely went around my question about what the arbitrary line you draw is for players offensive numbers being affected by team play.

Why is "the team being bad" used as an excuse for Larkin's lack of production, but the same can't be said of Ehn, however lesser that production might be? And if there's good reason for that case what is the distinction? Only top 6 players get their production affected by team play? Only players who score 40 pts or more? Where's the line according to you? Help me understand.

It can. I just don't buy it. The same way you don't buy it for Larkin...

22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Sure you can have your Datsyuk and Zetterberg play PK. Why not? They're the best defensive players on the team.

That doesn't diminish the need for defensively responsible players that round out the roster.

Again, if you're arguing that there is no need for defensive specialists on the team, you are 100% arguing there is no need for Glendening on the team. That's what he is.

I'm not arguing against defensively responsible players. I'm arguing against players that get hemmed in their own zone for 70% of their shift, because they have little to no skill (relatively speaking), and can't move the puck up ice. People then talk these players up as if they're "defensive specialists", when they're just bad NHL players.

I am 100% saying that we need the Luke Glendening's and Darren Helm's of the hockey world. I don't see Ehn developing into that calibre player. We'll see...

20 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Offense pays more than defense. The salary cap does not allow for teams to carry 4 lines of decent offense anymore. Teams are forced to carry cheaper forwards on the team now. That usually means defensive guys.

This simply isn't true. The cheap players you're referring to are called ELC's. You don't need a bunch of players on your team making near league minimum into their mid 20's. The only reason you keep those players around is for 13th/14th forward / 7th defenseman...

But again, I'm not arguing against defensively responsible players. I'm arguing against offensive blackholes...

22 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Also, defensive specialists ARE NOT "becoming less and less common".  That's just b.s. made up to win this argument.  Every team has a 4th line full of "defensive specialist".  Just like they always have.  Point to any roster in the league and I'll happily point out the defensive specialists. 

The Leafs and Canes (among other teams) are trying to roll 4 "scoring lines". That doesn't mean there are no defensively responsible players on those teams. But there aren't many bad ones.

There are good defensive players on every team. No one is arguing that. We have some bad players on our team. In my opinion, Ehn is one of those. If Ehn were waived at any point next season, he would clear waivers. Why? Because he's replacement level.

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Even when there was no salary cap teams didn't have 4 "offensive" lines.  Look at the 2002 Wings. All the money in the world, a willingness to spend it, free agents dying to play here, and we still had the Grind line and Devereaux.  

That was 8 years ago. Also, all members of the Grind Line were quality players that could chip in offensively, while playing sound defense. Those are players you want on your 4th line. Draper, Maltby / Glendening, Helm. Not Ehn. Again, maybe he develops into that type of player, but I don't see it.

I remember having similar conversations a few years ago about Marchenko. I see Ehn taking a similar route back to Europe...

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

******* Mark Hartigan played during the 2008 cup run for god sakes. 

Great point! Hartigan f***ing sucked. Bad players play in the NHL all the time. They seldom last though...

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20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

There are good defensive players on every team. No one is arguing that. We have some bad players on our team. In my opinion, Ehn is one of those. If Ehn were waived at any point next season, he would clear waivers. Why? Because he's replacement level.

That was 8 years ago. Also, all members of the Grind Line were quality players that could chip in offensively, while playing sound defense. Those are players you want on your 4th line. Draper, Maltby / Glendening, Helm. Not Ehn. Again, maybe he develops into that type of player, but I don't see it.

 

You're changing your story now because you were so obviously wrong the first time.  You said "defensive specialists" were becoming less and less common.  That's false.  Every single team in the league, including the two you mentioned, have multiple "defensive specialists".  Just admit you were wrong man. 

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7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree. I see Glendening as one of the better 4th line centers in the league. I see Ehn as a borderline NHL player. You obviously disagree, but to me, that's a significant gap.

Which is the equivalent of me saying Mantha is one of the better top6ers in the league, but I see Zadina as a borderline top6er.

Well of course Zadina isn't as a good as Mantha yet. One just finished a season at 25 and the other just finished a season at 20.

Glendog just finished a season at 30, and Ehn just finished at 23. Does that click at all?

12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Maybe. I don't see it though...

Why? What is so significantly worse about Ehn's game compared to Glendenings? I'd argue Ehn is even ahead of Glendening in terms of development when comparing Glendog at the same age.

15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Like I said, *most* NHL players. More so referring to "good" NHL players. I'd put Erne slightly ahead of Ehn in overall skill level, but he's still a pretty bad player, relatively speaking. 

So what, only players you decide you like can learn defense? Erne and Ehn no, Glendening and Perlini yes?

21 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What the f*** are you talking about? Hence why I said, we don't know which path Ehn is going to take... Right now, he's being utilized on the 4th line of the worst team in the league. Andersson was also once utilized on the 4th line. Ehn may fade out the same way Andersson did (what I think will happen), or he may end up a stud, shutdown 4th line center like Glendening (what you think will happen), or he may end up somewhere in between (probably most likely)...

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Now you think he's 'probably most likely' better than Andersson. Glad you're slowly getting on to the same page as everyone else.

25 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It can. I just don't buy it. The same way you don't buy it for Larkin...

That doesn't answer the question. Why does it affect Larkin and not Ehn? Elaborate. I don't have a clue how one can apply that to one player and not another without being a total hypocrite and exposing blatant bias.

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not arguing against defensively responsible players. I'm arguing against players that get hemmed in their own zone for 70% of their shift, because they have little to no skill (relatively speaking), and can't move the puck up ice. People then talk these players up as if they're "defensive specialists", when they're just bad NHL players.

And again I'd say you don't watch the games. Or at least you don't watch Ehn. He has the same superb textbook decision making that Glendening and Helm exhibit. It's boring to watch but it's effective systems hockey. What's the bias here? You like the NA guys but not the Euro? That's raciss

32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

But again, I'm not arguing against defensively responsible players. I'm arguing against offensive blackholes...

Yet you enjoy all three zone blackholes like Perlini. The bias is palpable.

35 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

There are good defensive players on every team. No one is arguing that. We have some bad players on our team. In my opinion, Ehn is one of those. If Ehn were waived at any point next season, he would clear waivers. Why? Because he's replacement level.

Ehn is in all likely gonna be the player Seattle takes from us. Just like Nosek, also a good 4th line player. Nosek still not in Europe... hmmmm

 

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19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're changing your story now because you were so obviously wrong the first time.  You said "defensive specialists" were becoming less and less common.  That's false.  Every single team in the league, including the two you mentioned, have multiple "defensive specialists".  Just admit you were wrong man. 

Okay, maybe "I was wrong" on my word choice there... Maybe "defensive specialist" isn't the best way to describe it. More like I said in my last post "offensive black hole", little to no offensive game. Those players, in my opinion, are becoming less and less common. The skill has evolved / is continuing to evolve. Therefore, that type of player is no longer needed. I see very little offensive upside in Ehn's game. Maybe he gets there, but I doubt it.

How about, instead of cherry picking one thing I say (like you ALWAYS do), why don't you discuss the actual topic at hand... What do you think of Ehn? Do you think he's above replacement level? Do you think he has offensive upside?

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6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Okay, maybe "I was wrong" on my word choice there... Maybe "defensive specialist" isn't the best way to describe it. More like I said in my last post "offensive black hole", little to no offensive game. Those players, in my opinion, are becoming less and less common. The skill has evolved / is continuing to evolve. Therefore, that type of player is no longer needed. I see very little offensive upside in Ehn's game. Maybe he gets there, but I doubt it.

How about, instead of cherry picking one thing I say (like you ALWAYS do), why don't you discuss the actual topic at hand... What do you think of Ehn? Do you think he's above replacement level? Do you think he has offensive upside?

Ehn scores more per 60 min of icetime then Glendening does. So again, if this is your argument then you should be making the same argument about Glendening. But you don't, because you're biased.

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6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Okay, maybe "I was wrong" on my word choice there... Maybe "defensive specialist" isn't the best way to describe it. More like I said in my last post "offensive black hole", little to no offensive game. Those players, in my opinion, are becoming less and less common. The skill has evolved / is continuing to evolve. Therefore, that type of player is no longer needed. I see very little offensive upside in Ehn's game. Maybe he gets there, but I doubt it.

How about, instead of cherry picking one thing I say (like you ALWAYS do), why don't you discuss the actual topic at hand... What do you think of Ehn? Do you think he's above replacement level? Do you think he has offensive upside?

Calling you out when you make outrageous claims like "defensive specialists are becoming less and less common" isn't cherry picking.  If you don't want someone to call you out on your b.s. then think harder and longer about what you're saying. It's not our job to suss out what you mean when you aren't specific with your "word choice". 

Also, I'll discuss whatever I want you little butt sniffer.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Which is the equivalent of me saying Mantha is one of the better top6ers in the league, but I see Zadina as a borderline top6er.

Well of course Zadina isn't as a good as Mantha yet. One just finished a season at 25 and the other just finished a season at 20.

Glendog just finished a season at 30, and Ehn just finished at 23. Does that click at all?

Absolutely. And you wouldn't be wrong in saying so. Zadina is probably a borderline top six winger at this point, but he absolutely will be a top six winger. You disagree. You think the same with Ehn. I disagree. What's your point?

17 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why? What is so significantly worse about Ehn's game compared to Glendenings? I'd argue Ehn is even ahead of Glendening in terms of development when comparing Glendog at the same age.

Again, I disagree. No different than you calling Zadina a bust. Except for the fact that it's not as dumb...

19 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So what, only players you decide you like can learn defense? Erne and Ehn no, Glendening and Perlini yes?

When did I say I "like" Perlini any more than Erne? And when did I say Perlini can learn defense?

Stop trying to put words in my mouth... I'm not saying any of these things. Literally, all I'm saying is that Ehn is a replacement level, border line NHLer. I don't think he lasts any more than a few seasons in the NHL. I'm aware that I could be wrong, and if I am, great. But why are you getting so bent out of shape over it? Who cares...

23 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Now you think he's 'probably most likely' better than Andersson. Glad you're slowly getting on to the same page as everyone else.

Not at all. I just think the "most likely" scenario usually falls somewhere in between two extremes. I still don't see him on this team through the rebuild.

24 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That doesn't answer the question. Why does it affect Larkin and not Ehn? Elaborate. I don't have a clue how one can apply that to one player and not another without being a total hypocrite and exposing blatant bias.

Why does it affect Ehn and not Larkin? Elaborate. I don't have a clue how one can apply that to one player and not another without being a total hypocrite and exposing blatant bias.

25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And again I'd say you don't watch the games. Or at least you don't watch Ehn. He has the same superb textbook decision making that Glendening and Helm exhibit. It's boring to watch but it's effective systems hockey. What's the bias here? You like the NA guys but not the Euro? That's raciss

Yeah totally "raciss"... Most of my favorite hockey players are European, but I have a bias for good ol' North American boyss...

28 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yet you enjoy all three zone blackholes like Perlini. The bias is palpable.

Again, with the Perlini bulls***...

28 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ehn is in all likely gonna be the player Seattle takes from us. Just like Nosek, also a good 4th line player. Nosek still not in Europe... hmmmm

Nosek - not in Europe, clearly means Ehn - won't go to Europe. Science...

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Calling you out when you make outrageous claims like "defensive specialists are becoming less and less common" isn't cherry picking.  If you don't want someone to call you out on your b.s. then think harder and longer about what you're saying. It's not our job to suss out what you mean when you aren't specific with your "word choice". 

Also, I'll discuss whatever I want you little butt sniffer.

Cool bud. You do you.

Ehn is a replacement level player. I know how much it would kill you to agree with that... I'm done with this.

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Just now, krsmith17 said:

Absolutely. And you wouldn't be wrong in saying so. Zadina is probably a borderline top six winger at this point, but he absolutely will be a top six winger. You disagree. You think the same with Ehn. I disagree. What's your point?

I can spend two years arguing about and extrapolating my position on Zadina with you, and still it has to be explained to you every time...

I don't disagree with the bolded. I've never argued that Zadina won't be a top6er. Don't be so dense.

My point (hopefully it clicks this time) is that 30 and 25 are larger numbers than 23 and 20. Players that are 23 and 20 tend to get better yet. Wouldn't you agree?

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, I disagree. No different than you calling Zadina a bust. Except for the fact that it's not as dumb...

Now you're just resorting to strawmanning.

Explain to me what's so disheartening about Ehn's game. Why it's so much worse than Glendenings. I suspect you don't actually have anything of substance to say which is why you resort to fallacy.

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

When did I say I "like" Perlini any more than Erne? And when did I say Perlini can learn defense?

Stop trying to put words in my mouth... I'm not saying any of these things. Literally, all I'm saying is that Ehn is a replacement level, border line NHLer. I don't think he lasts any more than a few seasons in the NHL. I'm aware that I could be wrong, and if I am, great. But why are you getting so bent out of shape over it? Who cares...

Which one would you keep out of Perlini, Ehn, and Erne?

12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Not at all. I just think the "most likely" scenario usually falls somewhere in between two extremes. I still don't see him on this team through the rebuild.

Come on, you can back-peddle faster than this.

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Why does it affect Ehn and not Larkin? Elaborate. I don't have a clue how one can apply that to one player and not another without being a total hypocrite and exposing blatant bias.

Soooooo you can't answer the question...?

15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah totally "raciss"... Most of my favorite hockey players are European, but I have a bias for good ol' North American boyss...

Ok, you love euros. So what's the significant difference then between Glendening and Ehn? I'd love to hear it.

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, with the Perlini bulls***...

Nosek - not in Europe, clearly means Ehn - won't go to Europe. Science...

Who's gonna leave the team first? Perlini or Ehn?

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