The 91 of Ryans 3,019 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said: Who would you rather have on the team? Seider or Zadina? Seider. If I had time to draw a picture it would be of Seider walking down a burning street, stepping on cars, and double fisting; a headless Zadina in one hand, a legless Hughes in the other. 1 minute ago, kipwinger said: Is "neither" an option? DISQUALIFIED Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, kipwinger said: Is "neither" an option? No 1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Seider. If I had time to draw a picture it would be of Seider walking down a burning street, stepping on cars, and double fisting; a headless Zadina in one hand, a legless Hughes in the other. Yes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said: No Yes I kid, I kid. I need clarity on the question. Are you asking, "who would you rather have up from GR right now, Seider or Zadina?" or is the question "If only one of these guys were in our organization and the other had to disappear, which would you keep?". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, kipwinger said: Oh sorry, I thought my opinion was clear. Hughes will be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than Zadina. Why? Because superstars tend to dominate the league as soon as they come into it, like Hughes is doing. Think about this, you constantly say all the time that defensemen take longer to develop. So Hughes isn't even close to as good as he's going to be later, and he's already dominating the league as a rookie. Conversely, forwards peak earlier (according to your rationale) so Zadina is closer to his ceiling than Hughes, and he's basically a top six foward at this point. ^ Stating opinion as fact... Tyler Myers stepped into the league and dominated right away as well. He won the Calder Trophy with 48 points, and has since been a 25-35 point average defenseman... Nikita Kucherov wasn't even in the NHL at this point. He finally made the NHL in his third year after being drafted, and put up 18 points in 52 games, only to explode the following season... No, I'm not comparing Hughes to Myers or Zadina to Kucherov. My point is, all players develop at difference rates. That's also something I "constantly say all the time"... To state that Hughes is going to be better than Zadina as fact is dumb. I would agree that it's likely Hughes will be for the reasons you pointed out, but "I also wouldn't be shocked if Zadina ends up the better player"... I know how much that bothers you... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, kipwinger said: I kid, I kid. I need clarity on the question. Are you asking, "who would you rather have up from GR right now, Seider or Zadina?" or is the question "If only one of these guys were in our organization and the other had to disappear, which would you keep?". The later Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: ^ Stating opinion as fact... Tyler Myers stepped into the league and dominated right away as well. He won the Calder Trophy with 48 points, and has since been a 25-35 point average defenseman... Nikita Kucherov wasn't even in the NHL at this point. He finally made the NHL in his third year after being drafted, and put up 18 points in 52 games, only to explode the following season... No, I'm not comparing Hughes to Myers or Zadina to Kucherov. My point is, all players develop at difference rates. That's also something I "constantly say all the time"... To state that Hughes is going to be better than Zadina as fact is dumb. I would agree that it's likely Hughes will be for the reasons you pointed out, but "I also wouldn't be shocked if Zadina ends up the better player"... I know how much that bothers you... I literally said "my opinion" in the post. Try harder. Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said: The later Oh, then easily Seider. I think Zadina is basically going to be another Tatar. Which is super useful for a contender to have. While I'm not sure how good Seider is going to be, he's proven me wrong so far, and I now don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could be a Seth Jones type workhorse. I'd keep him around for that kind of upside alone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, kipwinger said: I literally said "my opinion" in the post. Try harder. Typical kip... Always pick out one part of a post and completely ignore the rest... Try harder? Zadina rules. Hughes drools. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, krsmith17 said: Typical kip... Always pick out one part of a post and completely ignore the rest... Try harder? Zadina rules. Hughes drools. So you admit that I stated my opinion as such? Once you've admitted that then we can move on to why I wasn't talking about points when I say that Hughes is dominating. Edited December 17, 2019 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, kipwinger said: I literally said "my opinion" in the post. Try harder. Oh, then easily Seider. I think Zadina is basically going to be another Tatar. Which is super useful for a contender to have. While I'm not sure how good Seider is going to be, he's proven me wrong so far, and I now don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could be a Seth Jones type workhorse. I'd keep him around for that kind of upside alone. Bingo. Zadina is an average 2nd line forward ala Tatar or Hudler. The over-hypers will be offended by this though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, kipwinger said: So you admit that I stated my opinion as such? Once you've admitted that then we can move on to why I wasn't talking about points when I say that Hughes is dominating. LOL I always wonder if you're this big a tool in real life, or if this is your online persona... Honestly, save yourself some time because I don't give a s*** about why you think Hughes is dominating, or why you think Zadina won't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: LOL I always wonder if you're this big a tool in real life, or if this is your online persona... Honestly, save yourself some time because I don't give a s*** about why you think Hughes is dominating, or why you think Zadina won't. Oh now you're resorting to name calling rather than just admitting you were wrong? Sad. 9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: Bingo. Zadina is an average 2nd line forward ala Tatar or Hudler. The over-hypers will be offended by this though. He may rack up a few more assists than Tatar, but essentially they're the same. Zadina plays too much on the perimeter and he's not fast enough to be dominant in transition. So basically his scoring is limited to the powerplay and/or whatever his linemates gift him. Dominant top line wingers score in a multitude of ways. I just don't see it with Zadina. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, kipwinger said: Oh now you're resorting to name calling rather than just admitting you were wrong? Sad. He may rack up a few more assists than Tatar, but essentially they're the same. Zadina plays too much on the perimeter and he's not fast enough to be dominant in transition. So basically his scoring is limited to the powerplay and/or whatever his linemates gift him. Dominant top line wingers score in a multitude of ways. I just don't see it with Zadina. According to you, AA was the best player on the team. More upside than Larkin, you once said. Better than Mantha, you said. Your opinions on Zadina? Grain. Of. Salt. 2 The 91 of Ryans and krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, marcaractac said: According to you, AA was the best player on the team. More upside than Larkin, you once said. Better than Mantha, you said. Your opinions on Zadina? Grain. Of. Salt. I did say he had more upside than Larkin. I was wrong. Sue me. However, I only said he was a better SCORER than Mantha. Which I stand behind. He has consistently scored more goals, in fewer minutes, with worse linemates than Mantha. Edited December 17, 2019 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, kipwinger said: I did say he had more upside than Larkin. I was wrong. Sue me. However, I only said he was a better SCORER than Mantha. Which I stand behind. He has consistently scored more goals, in fewer minutes, with worse linemates than Mantha. Again, more reasons why I just don't take your opinions seriously. Much like AA, you'll likely be wrong about Zadina as well. A Tatar-level player is merely his floor. 2 krsmith17 and The 91 of Ryans reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, marcaractac said: Again, more reasons why I just don't take your opinions seriously. Much like AA, you'll likely be wrong about Zadina as well. A Tatar-level player is merely his floor. Who asked you to take my opinions seriously? I'm not over here begging for your approval man. I gave you my reasons for thinking Zadina is limited, which basically boil down to "he can only consistently generate offense in one way". You're welcome to refute it, ignore it, or whatever. I don't care too much. But when you say, "Tatar's his floor" without providing any rationale your opinion becomes just as suspect as you're saying mine is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, marcaractac said: Again, more reasons why I just don't take your opinions seriously. Much like AA, you'll likely be wrong about Zadina as well. A Tatar-level player is merely his floor. He also has no idea what the word "consistently" means... Mantha - 12 goals in 27 games (508 minutes) this season. Athanasiou - 5 goals in 31 games (502 minutes) this season. kipwinger: "Athanasiou has consistently scored more goals... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: He also has no idea what the word "consistently" means... Mantha - 12 goals in 27 games (508 minutes) this season. Athanasiou - 5 goals in 31 games (502 minutes) this season. kipwinger: "Athanasiou has consistently scored more goals... Didn't realize their careers were only one season long? Do the math on the rest of their careers and you'll see a very different story emerge. Also, you think maybe AA would score more with Larkin and Bertuzzi as his linemates every night? Edited December 17, 2019 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, kipwinger said: Didn't realize their careers were only one season long? Do the math on the rest of their careers and you'll see a very different story emerge. Also, you think maybe AA would score more with Larkin and Bertuzzi as his linemates every night? Consistently: in every case or on every occasion: invariably. Yes I do think Athanasiou would score more with Larkin and Bertuzzi. As much as Mantha? No, because Mantha is a better goal scorer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, krsmith17 said: Consistently: in every case or on every occasion: invariably. Yes I do think Athanasiou would score more with Larkin and Bertuzzi. As much as Mantha? No, because Mantha is a better goal scorer. AA has 2 fewer career goals than Mantha despite consistently playing with worse players. So it seems like what you're saying is that even if he played with Larkin and Bert (which you agree would make a difference) it wouldn't account for 2 goals over a whole career? C'mon man, even you aren't that dumb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, kipwinger said: AA has 2 fewer career goals than Mantha despite consistently playing with worse players. So it seems like what you're saying is that even if he played with Larkin and Bert (which you agree would make a difference) it wouldn't account for 2 goals over a whole career? C'mon man, even you aren't that dumb. Oh yeah, I forgot that Mantha played his whole career with Larkin and Bertuzzi... Are you seriously STILL arguing that Athanasiou is a better goal scorer than Mantha? Of course you are. You ARE that dumb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Oh yeah, I forgot that Mantha played his whole career with Larkin and Bertuzzi... Are you seriously STILL arguing that Athanasiou is a better goal scorer than Mantha? Of course you are. You ARE that dumb. Mantha has played more of his career with better players. Before Larkin he played with Zetterberg. AA has never consistently played with a quality center. Edit: In addition, AA has averaged about 2.5 minutes less in ice time per game than Mantha. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if you give AA 2.5 more minutes per night, with top end players, his goal scoring would be substantially higher than Mantha's given how close it is currently without the quality linemates and minutes. Edited December 17, 2019 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, kipwinger said: Mantha has played more of his career with better players. Before Larkin he played with Zetterberg. AA has never consistently played with a quality center. And why do you think that is? Maybe because Mantha is a better all around player, and a better goal scorer... 14 minutes ago, kipwinger said: Edit: In addition, AA has averaged about 2.5 minutes less in ice time per game than Mantha. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if you give AA 2.5 more minutes per night, with top end players, his goal scoring would be substantially higher than Mantha's given how close it is currently without the quality linemates and minutes. Do you think Athanasiou would have over double the number of goals this season, given 2.5 more minutes per game and better line mates? I don't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, krsmith17 said: And why do you think that is? Maybe because Mantha is a better all around player, and a better goal scorer... Do you think Athanasiou would have over double the number of goals this season, given 2.5 more minutes per game and better line mates? I don't. I never said AA was the better player, just the better scorer, so your first point is moot. Your second point is moot because their careers are more than one season long. But there's the thing, I can prove that AA is the better scorer with empirical evidence. I just need you to answer one question first. Over the course of their careers, who has played with the better players in general? Keeping in mind, of course, that Mantha has averaged about 2.5 more minutes per game (hence he's played on higher lines than AA). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 5,153 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 23 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: I don't think they are either. Just saying If you HAD to pick one, who'd you pick to keep? I'd keep Fabbri, only because if I'm trading one, Zadina will bring back more in return. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 I'm sitting this one out 1 1 Wheelchairsuperhero and Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
