Fabbri or Zadina?

[bIueadams 776]

Some young player swaps we could do for Zadina:

• Chychrun - Arizona
• Valimaki - Calgary -------> stuck behind CGY's other defenders
• Brannstrom - Ottawa ----> down year might need a change of scenery
• Kravtsov - NYR -----------> in Russia still
• DeBrusk - Boston --------> his play has gotten better since he asked for a trade

[bIueadams 776]

I think a Valimaki trade makes a ton of sense for both teams.

Calgary's defense:

Hanafin - Andersson
Kylington - Tanev
Zadorov - Gudbranson
Stone/Valimaki

Valimaki was expected to make the team this year, until Kylington basically stole his spot. There is no room for Valimaki on that left side. Unless they plan on not re-signing Zadorov and replacing him with Valimaki next season. But it may be more worth it to them to add an asset somewhere else NOW and go for it NOW. Zadina could join their 3rd line with Monahan and Toffolli and push Lucic down to the 4th line (where they want him).

We have impending giant gaps on our left side D. Valimaki could immediately shore some of that up for us.

Valimaki - Seider
Edvinsson/UFA - Hronek
Oesterle - Lindstrom

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

21 hours ago, bIueadams said:

For the life of me I have no idea what you guys see in him, other than age and draft pedigree. He's decent at stripping a puck. That's about all I can come up with. Shot not accurate. Shot choice awful. Passing completely pedestrian. IQ and instincts non-existent. Terrible in board battles. No upper body strength. Afraid of doing anything besides playing the perimeter.

This is our Yakupov. He's not changing his game, adjusting, growing. He keeps returning to the dry well hoping to find water. But he's never going to have the time and space he needs to be the player he was in the Q in the NHL, and he seemingly does not understand this.

I don't think he's anywhere in SY's future plans at this point.

I still see potential in Zadina. I dont see any flaws in his game that cant be improved on thru hard work and experience. He may not ever achieve his full potential, but I am not ready to give up on 22 yo just yet.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I still see potential in Zadina. I dont see any flaws in his game that cant be improved on thru hard work and experience. He may not ever achieve his full potential, but I am not ready to give up on 22 yo just yet.

This.  Nyquist at 22 had 18 games and 7 pts under his belt.  We gave him top 6 minutes with a hall of fame center every year and allowed him to get his pay up to 5.5 mil per.  Zadina has been playing with rejects from other teams for the start of his career and playing shyte minutes.  Zadina haters just cant get over that we are not going to have 8 Lucas Raymonds around our 4 centers.  For some reason, the round peg in the round hole ia met with "it HAS to go through the square hole, or im bashing him".  Get over it already.  There are so many players in our organization to whip before Zadina.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Some young player swaps we could do for Zadina:

• Chychrun - Arizona
• Valimaki - Calgary -------> stuck behind CGY's other defenders
• Brannstrom - Ottawa ----> down year might need a change of scenery
• Kravtsov - NYR -----------> in Russia still
• DeBrusk - Boston --------> his play has gotten better since he asked for a trade

Chychrun would cost Zadina plus. I dont like the idea of giving up picks yet.

Valimaki doesnt excite me and we already have solid D prospects coming up.

Ottawa is another up and coming team, I dont see them trading away a young talent.

Kravtsov may never play in NA.

DeBrusk is the only one I would consider.

 

[kipwinger 8,771]

3 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This.  Nyquist at 22 had 18 games and 7 pts under his belt.  We gave him top 6 minutes with a hall of fame center every year and allowed him to get his pay up to 5.5 mil per.  Zadina has been playing with rejects from other teams for the start of his career and playing shyte minutes.  Zadina haters just cant get over that we are not going to have 8 Lucas Raymonds around our 4 centers.  For some reason, the round peg in the round hole ia met with "it HAS to go through the square hole, or im bashing him".  Get over it already.  There are so many players in our organization to whip before Zadina.

Nevermind Lucas Raymond, he's getting outscored by offensive juggernauts like Pius Suter, Vlad Namestnikov, Sam Gagner, and Michael Rasmussen. If this guy is actually good I don't think it's asking too much for him to be the 5th most productive forward on a non-playoff team. But even by that INCREDIBLY modest standard he fails.

Also, if you're comparing Zadina's developmental path to a 4th round pick (Nyquist) then I think you've basically already conceded that he blows.

[bIueadams 776]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Nevermind Lucas Raymond, he's getting outscored by offensive juggernauts like Pius Suter, Vlad Namestnikov, Sam Gagner, and Michael Rasmussen. If this guy is actually good I don't think it's asking too much for him to be the 5th most productive forward on a non-playoff team. But even by that INCREDIBLY modest standard he fails.

Also, if you're comparing Zadina's developmental path to a 4th round pick (Nyquist) then I think you've basically already conceded that he blows.

I'm reading through the comments of the reddit thread about Zadina being a trade target. Every last comment: "Big mistake, he shows flashes of brilliance, and is about to breakout, I can feel it"

Normie casuals are the worst fans. I'm no professional hockey scout, but I've dedicated enough of my freetime to watching this sport to say I think I at least have an educated opinion as far as s***ty message boards go. I have not ever seen Zadina do anything "brilliant". I see a player with A LOT of problems. The guy kills more plays than the infamous Mikkael Samuelsson. Weak on the puck. Weak on the boards. It goes on and on. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone reading through the reddit comments. "About to break out" god it's like the Brendan Smith saga all over again. Brendans 27 and 300 games into his career! He's about to go to from 15 pts a season to 40! Don't pay attention to the way he plays just trust me!

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

I'm reading through the comments of the reddit thread about Zadina being a trade target. Every last comment: "Big mistake, he shows flashes of brilliance, and is about to breakout, I can feel it"

Normie casuals are the worst fans. I'm no professional hockey scout, but I've dedicated enough of my freetime to watching this sport to say I think I at least have an educated opinion as far as s***ty message boards go. I have not ever seen Zadina do anything "brilliant". I see a player with A LOT of problems. The guy kills more plays than the infamous Mikkael Samuelsson. Weak on the puck. Weak on the boards. It goes on and on. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone reading through the reddit comments. "About to break out" god it's like the Brendan Smith saga all over again. Brendans 27 and 300 games into his career! He's about to go to from 15 pts a season to 40! Don't pay attention to the way he plays just trust me!

That's because they hear the same thing from supposed "experts" all day long. They literally just repeat, verbatim, what they read on twitter from a bunch of The Athletic dorks. And I've already discussed how those guys have cleverly (and self servingly) changed the definition of a "good" player from one who scores and wins to one who gets lots of shot attempts. And why did they do that? Because they have 45 staff writers with backgrounds in statistical analysis charging $10 a month for subscriptions.
 

"Durrr...well Dom/Pryshanth/Dimitri/Micah wrote an article all about how missing the net all the time is actually a REALLY good thing because it means you have the puck a lot...drool". You should hear the outrage when Jeff Blashill (a professional hockey coach) DARES to say that he thinks scoring chances matter more than shot totals. Heaven forbid.

[bIueadams 776]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That's because they hear the same thing from supposed "experts" all day long. They literally just repeat, verbatim, what they read on twitter from a bunch of The Athletic dorks. And I've already discussed how those guys have cleverly (and self servingly) changed the definition of a "good" player from one who scores and wins to one who gets lots of shot attempts. And why did they do that? Because they have 45 staff writers with backgrounds in statistical analysis charging $10 a month for subscriptions.
 

"Durrr...well Dom/Pryshanth/Dimitri/Micah wrote an article all about how missing the net all the time is actually a REALLY good thing because it means you have the puck a lot...drool". You should hear the outrage when Jeff Blashill (a professional hockey coach) DARES to say that he thinks scoring chances matter more than shot totals. Heaven forbid.

"Zadina sucks, here's why that's a good thing"

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

"Zadina sucks, here's why that's a good thing"

"He's even really good defensively. When he's on the ice the other team can't do any shot missing of their own because Zadina's at the other end of the ice with the puck missing his own shots, or hitting the goalie in the logo, with astounding regularity. Riddle me this smart guys, if Zadina's out there missing the net how is the opposition supposed to miss the net too?"

[bIueadams 776]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

"He's even really good defensively. When he's on the ice the other team can't do any shot missing of their own because Zadina's at the other end of the ice with the puck missing his own shots, or hitting the goalie in the logo, with astounding regularity. Riddle me this smart guys, if Zadina's out there missing the net how is the opposition supposed to miss the net too?"

If we had Erne and Zadina swap jerseys for one game, everyone would start complaining about how Erne is playing worse than ever and Zadina looks like he's finally coming into his own.

[kipwinger 8,771]

2 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

If we had Erne and Zadina swap jerseys for one game, everyone would start complaining about how Erne is playing worse than ever and Zadina looks like he's finally coming into his own.

"Dom" a writer for The Athletic is currently on Twitter sh*tting all over Jonathan Huberdeau because he "ignores 100ft of the ice" but thinks Zadina is just the victim of bad puck luck. I swear. I can't make this s*** up.

Edited March 4, 2022 by kipwinger

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

"Dom" a writer for The Athletic is currently on Twitter sh*tting all over Jonathan Huberdeau because he "ignores 100ft of the ice" but thinks Zadina is just the victim of bad puck luck. I swear. I can't make this s*** up.

Rookie mistake. He should know by now that good Zadina apologists couch their excuses in the term "snake bitten".

 

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

Rookie mistake. He should know by now that good Zadina apologists couch their excuses in the term "snake bitten".

 

I hear "gripping the stick too tight" a lot as well. Or, "confidence means everything for goal scorers". It's as if the fact that he can't hit the net is pure happenstance.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I hear "gripping the stick too tight" a lot as well. Or, "confidence means everything for goal scorers". It's as if the fact that he can't hit the net is pure happenstance.

you spend too much time on this man.  creepy

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

you spend too much time on this man.  creepy

Meh, I'll always find time to shine light on dummies. If that makes me a creep then I'm a creep. But at least I'm a smart creep.

[bIueadams 776]

22 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

you spend too much time on this man.  creepy

Zadina sucks bro

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Meh, I'll always find time to shine light on dummies. If that makes me a creep then I'm a creep. But at least I'm a smart creep.

the thing about whipping:

 

- its ok if you have a logical alternative solution to what you think is a problem

 

but when, the conversation is:

 

Trade Zadina

Replace him with XYZ

 

and XYZ makes the team worse (older, slower, less potential, etc), then you just fail.

 

The truth - Zadina isnt performing how he is expected to perform.

Also the truth - he is 22 years old

ATT - We currently do not have 8 wings in the organization better than him

ATT - He's very affordable

 

If we get Forsberg, Zadina should never see our top 6 again.  And thats ok.  I love the 3rd line of Berggren-Veleno-Zadina.  Thats a big if tho.  And Berggren plays a VERY similar game to Zadina.  He might have a tough time adjusting as well.

 

point is - be patient.  If Zadina cant find it, and theres someone better waiting, then next man up.  Right now, there arent better options.

[marcaractac 3,963]

3 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

the thing about whipping:

 

- its ok if you have a logical alternative solution to what you think is a problem

 

but when, the conversation is:

 

Trade Zadina

Replace him with XYZ

 

and XYZ makes the team worse (older, slower, less potential, etc), then you just fail.

 

The truth - Zadina isnt performing how he is expected to perform.

Also the truth - he is 22 years old

ATT - We currently do not have 8 wings in the organization better than him

ATT - He's very affordable

 

If we get Forsberg, Zadina should never see our top 6 again.  And thats ok.  I love the 3rd line of Berggren-Veleno-Zadina.  Thats a big if tho.  And Berggren plays a VERY similar game to Zadina.  He might have a tough time adjusting as well.

 

point is - be patient.  If Zadina cant find it, and theres someone better waiting, then next man up.  Right now, there arent better options.

Berggren is doing very well in the AHL over the course of almost an entire season thus far. Zadina never accomplished such a thing. Let's down bring Berggren down to Zadina's level, please. 

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

the thing about whipping:

 

- its ok if you have a logical alternative solution to what you think is a problem

 

but when, the conversation is:

 

Trade Zadina

Replace him with XYZ

 

and XYZ makes the team worse (older, slower, less potential, etc), then you just fail.

 

The truth - Zadina isnt performing how he is expected to perform.

Also the truth - he is 22 years old

ATT - We currently do not have 8 wings in the organization better than him

ATT - He's very affordable

 

If we get Forsberg, Zadina should never see our top 6 again.  And thats ok.  I love the 3rd line of Berggren-Veleno-Zadina.  Thats a big if tho.  And Berggren plays a VERY similar game to Zadina.  He might have a tough time adjusting as well.

 

point is - be patient.  If Zadina cant find it, and theres someone better waiting, then next man up.  Right now, there arent better options.

I don't agree with a few of your premises

1) The whole "you can't trade him because he sucks" argument is circular logic. If you shouldn't trade him when he's bad, and there's no reason to trade him if he's good, then you'll never trade him. This, I assume, is the point for Zadina apologists. There is literally no scenario in which they think he should be traded. But it's bad business. Imagine if Yzerman had never traded Drouin because he was only 22/value was low/just scratching the surface/didn't have EIGHT (lol) better forwards/etc.? He'd be stuck with a bum and would have never gotten Sergachev.

2) Plus, you don't need EIGHT better wingers at all. Saying so means that you think Zadina and Gagner (for instance) are competing for the same jobs. They aren't. There are different roles on a hockey team, some Zadina is suited for and some he's not. Zadina is a (supposedly) a scoring foward. He's competing with Bert, Raymond, Fabbri, and Vrana for top six minutes and powerplay time. He's being BADLY outproduced in those roles by the guys I mentioned (other than Vrana who no doubt will). None of them are old and all are better in that role.  He's not competing with Ras, Veleno, Rowney or Stephens because those guys are centers. So to win a bottom six winger role he'd need to kill penalties/play defense/hit/block shots/chip in a little offense/etc. better than Namestnikov, Erne, Gagner, and Smith. He doesn't kill penalties, he's bad defensively, and at least two of those guys are scoring more as well. MAYBE he's better than Smith for that role, but not by much.

3) If you think Berggren plays like Zadina you've pretty obviously never seen Berggren play much. They're nothing alike. Berggren is a WAY better skater, and the hallmark of his game is passing (which is elite). He's an absolute force as a playmaker  on the powerplay. His coaches (even from his days in Sweden) had to beg him to shoot more (which he's finally doing and improving significantly). I'd say he's a better playmaker than anyone in the Red Wings organization, including Raymond. He's also a nightmare in transition because of his skating. Zadina is slower, a worse passer, and a nonfactor on the powerplay. But he's got (right now) a better shot and he's a bit bigger than Berggren. Both are good forecheckers but don't have a ton of defensive value otherwise. Berggren will easily, and I mean easily, score more than Zadina in the NHL based on his passing alone. He's got line driving upside as a playmaker, similar in style (not in ceiling) to guys like Panarin or Gaudreau.

 

Right now Zadina is, at best, a 3rd line winger. Those guys are totally replaceable and none of them are untouchable. If the right deal comes along he should be gone. I think the Zadina/Leddy deal to Edm I proposed makes a lot of sense for both teams, but there are definitely other deals to be make I'm sure.

Edited March 4, 2022 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

43 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't agree with a few of your premises

1) The whole "you can't trade him because he sucks" argument is circular logic. If you shouldn't trade him when he's bad, and there's no reason to trade him if he's good, then you'll never trade him. This, I assume, is the point for Zadina apologists. There is literally no scenario in which they think he should be traded. But it's bad business. Imagine if Yzerman had never traded Drouin because he was only 22/value was low/just scratching the surface/didn't have EIGHT (lol) better forwards/etc.? He'd be stuck with a bum and would have never gotten Sergachev.

2) Plus, you don't need EIGHT better wingers at all. Saying so means that you think Zadina and Gagner (for instance) are competing for the same jobs. They aren't. There are different roles on a hockey team, some Zadina is suited for and some he's not. Zadina is a (supposedly) a scoring foward. He's competing with Bert, Raymond, Fabbri, and Vrana for top six minutes and powerplay time. He's being BADLY outproduced in those roles by the guys I mentioned (other than Vrana who no doubt will). None of them are old and all are better in that role.  He's not competing with Ras, Veleno, Rowney or Stephens because those guys are centers. So to win a bottom six winger role he'd need to kill penalties/play defense/hit/block shots/chip in a little offense/etc. better than Namestnikov, Erne, Gagner, and Smith. He doesn't kill penalties, he's bad defensively, and at least two of those guys are scoring more as well. MAYBE he's better than Smith for that role, but not by much.

3) If you think Berggren plays like Zadina you've pretty obviously never seen Berggren play much. They're nothing alike. Berggren is a WAY better skater, and the hallmark of his game is passing (which is elite). He's an absolute force as a playmaker  on the powerplay. His coaches (even from his days in Sweden) had to beg him to shoot more (which he's finally doing and improving significantly). I'd say he's a better playmaker than anyone in the Red Wings organization, including Raymond. He's also a nightmare in transition because of his skating. Zadina is slower, a worse passer, and a nonfactor on the powerplay. But he's got (right now) a better shot and he's a bit bigger than Berggren. Both are good forecheckers but don't have a ton of defensive value otherwise. Berggren will easily, and I mean easily, score more than Zadina in the NHL based on his passing alone. He's got line driving upside as a playmaker, similar in style (not in ceiling) to guys like Panarin or Gaudreau.

 

Right now Zadina is, at best, a 3rd line winger. Those guys are totally replaceable and none of them are untouchable. If the right deal comes along he should be gone. I think the Zadina/Leddy deal to Edm I proposed makes a lot of sense for both teams, but there are definitely other deals to be make I'm sure.

To answer your points:

1)  I never said this

2) You DO.  You are assuming all of our players are going to be healthy all 82 games.  Vrana goes down?  Bertuzzi goes down?  etc.  Enter Kyle Kriscuolo.  Come on, dude.  Youre telling me you want Kyle Kriscuolo filling in for Vrana?  Youre just lost if youre on the "Kyle Kriscuolo and Mitch Stephens are better assets" train.  Glad Yzerman and Blash arent.

3) Ive watched them both at AHL and NHL levels.  You will see what happens to Berggren next year when he cracks the lineup.  His high flying offensive dynamo days will grind to a halt just like Zadinas.  Power play time?  You think they are going to put him in front of Larkin, Suter, Bertuzzi, Raymond, Rasmussen, Zadina, Veleno?  He will be lucky to get 45 seconds of pp time every 5 games next year.  PK and 3rd/4th line duties for the kid as he learns "the Red Wings Way".

 

You Zadina haters act like every guy is Lucas Raymond and then forgets how to play hockey.  Every guy is different and needs to learn how to be effective in the NHL.  That doesnt translate to 8 wingers that all score 70 pts, no matter how bad you want that.

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Jonas Mahonas

[kipwinger 8,771]

9 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

To answer your points:

1)  I never said this

2) You DO.  You are assuming all of our players are going to be healthy all 82 games.  Vrana goes down?  Bertuzzi goes down?  etc.  Enter Kyle Kriscuolo.  Come on, dude.  Youre telling me you want Kyle Kriscuolo filling in for Vrana?  Youre just lost if youre on the "Kyle Kriscuolo and Mitch Stephens are better assets" train.  Glad Yzerman and Blash arent.

3) Ive watched them both at AHL and NHL levels.  You will see what happens to Berggren next year when he cracks the lineup.  His high flying offensive dynamo days will grind to a halt just like Zadinas.  Power play time?  You think they are going to put him in front of Larkin, Suter, Bertuzzi, Raymond, Rasmussen, Zadina, Veleno?  He will be lucky to get 45 seconds of pp time every 5 games next year.  PK and 3rd/4th line duties for the kid as he learns "the Red Wings Way".

 

You Zadina haters act like every guy is Lucas Raymond and then forgets how to play hockey.  Every guy is different and needs to learn how to be effective in the NHL.  That doesnt translate to 8 wingers that all score 70 pts, no matter how bad you want that.

 

1) You insinuate it 40 times a day. "Sure Zadina has disappointed, but you don't trade him because he's only 22". If you don't trade him when he's young and sucks, and you shouldn't trade him if he's good, then when should you trade him?

2) I'd rather have Vlad Namestnikov fill in the top six in case of injury. At least he can score. And there are about 2 million guys like Vlad Namestnikov floating around the league. How on earth could we ever hope to find such a player? P.S. we got Robby Fabbri for a dude we claimed off waivers. Zadina ain't good, or special.

3) There are two powerplay units. Berggren will start on one of them. Zadina gets powerplay time and he's not on the top unit. It's a pretty simple concept. I'll make a friendly wager with you, assuming Zadina is still on the team I'll bet Berggren scores more than him as early as next season?

4) For the millionth time, I don't expect Zadina to be Raymond. That ship has VERY OBVIOUSLY sailed. But I do expect him to be better than Sam Gagner and Vlad Namestnikov. He isn't. He's decidedly worse. He's not even better than Michael Rasmussen.

[kipwinger 8,771]

Fun Fact: There are 24 players in the NHL who are YOUNGER than Filip Zadina and who are outscoring him this year. Superstars like Joel Farrabee, Filip Tomasino, and Seth Jarvis.

"But Kip, you can't expect Zadina to be better than Alex Ovechkin...durrrrr"

I don't. But it'd be cool if he was better than Nils Hoglander.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

I too believe that Zadina is just not working out here. That being said, I would not trade him to a divisional team, just in case the change of venue ignites his "filling of the nets!"

I would like to see us get DeBrusk, but without sending them Zadina. They need a D, so hypothetically we send them Leddy, what goes with him? Or since they are the divisional rival in need, we don't need to acquire anyone for the playoffs, they do, so you'd think they'd have to pay up, no? Could we do a Leddy for DeBrusk swap? Of course retaining 50% of Leddy's salary.

I'd trade Zadina along with Griess to Edmonton for their 1st round pick....or maybe Broberg instead. I know we have a few D prospects that are making huge cases for the NHL, but we have 4 UFA D that (if not traded) most likely will not be back. Unless Yzerman signs Staal for another year as that mentor D.

Edited March 4, 2022 by LeftWinger

[bIueadams 776]

3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I too believe that Zadina is just not working out here. That being said, I would not trade him to a divisional team, just in case the change of venue ignites his "filling of the nets!"

I would like to see us get DeBrusk, but without sending them Zadina. They need a D, so hypothetically we send them Leddy, what goes with him? Or since they are the divisional rival in need, we don't need to acquire anyone for the playoffs, they do, so you'd think they'd have to pay up, no? Could we do a Leddy for DeBrusk swap? 

I'd trade Zadina along with Griess to Edmonton for their 1st round pick.

The Bruins fans I've spoken with basically have no interest in Leddy. According to them he was terrible for the Islanders last year and his stats reflect that that has continued in Detroit.

When it comes to Zadina, I am very eager to get Berggren on this team. IDK how the apologists are going to try to explain away a rookie outperforming Zadina, but they will, and it will be pathetic, and it will be blood in the water for anyone questioning his bad play.