Midterm Grades per Mlive article

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No you haven't answered it. You just keep pulling up Svech as a Red Herring.

I suspect you're smart enough to realize you're not able to address Comrie v. Ehn potentials without contradicting yourself and that's why your resorting to fallacy. But if you'd like to, I'd be willing to discuss sucky Svech as soon as we've tackled it.

Different positions. Different prime years. Different developmental paths. All been disgused...

Now explain why a (no too long ago) highly regarded 23 year old winger that missed a significant amount of time to injury, sucks. But another 23 year old winger that has shown very little at the NHL level in his year and half, still has potential... This should be good...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Different positions. Different prime years. Different developmental paths. All been disgused...

Different positions has nothing to do with it. 23 is young and still developing at any position.

Different prime years has nothing to do with. 23 is young and still outside of prime for every player besides maybe super stars.

Different developmental paths? Please explain how Comries path through hockey leaves Comrie with potential, but Ehn's path doesn't.

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Now explain why a (no too long ago) highly regarded 23 year old winger that missed a significant amount of time to injury, sucks. But another 23 year old winger that has shown very little at the NHL level in his year and half, still has potential... This should be good...

You simply fail to fully understand my position, and falsely equate my use of the word "suck" for a player not having any potential.

Svechnikov has potential. Ehn has potential. And even Comrie has potential.

Svech has sucked and continues to suck this season which is why he remains in the AHL. Will he get better? Certainly. He's 23.
Comrie sucked and that's why he's back in the AHL. Will he get better? Certainly. He's 24.
Ehn has actually been able to hold down a job in the NHL, even if its not a very big one. He's a pretty decent 4th line PKer. Will ge get better? Certainly he's 23.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Different positions has nothing to do with it. 23 is young and still developing at any position.

Different prime years has nothing to do with. 23 is young and still outside of prime for every player besides maybe super stars.

Different developmental paths? Please explain how Comries path through hockey leaves Comrie with potential, but Ehn's path doesn't.

You simply fail to fully understand my position, and falsely equate my use of the word "suck" for a player not having any potential.

Svechnikov has potential. Ehn has potential. And even Comrie has potential.

Svech has sucked and continues to suck this season which is why he remains in the AHL. Will he get better? Certainly. He's 23.
Comrie sucked and that's why he's back in the AHL. Will he get better? Certainly. He's 24.
Ehn has actually been able to hold down a job in the NHL, even if its not a very big one. He's a pretty decent 4th line PKer. Will ge get better? Certainly he's 23.

I've never once said that Ehn can not improve. Sure, he may have potential, but potential to be what? I don't see him as anything more than a 4th liner (at best) at the NHL level.

Svechnikov also has potential, but in my opinion, his potential is much higher. He could, if he can stay healthy and everything goes right, become a middle six winger at the NHL level. 

Comrie also has potential, but goalies take a lot longer to develop, and are so much harder to gauge, so he could be a career AHLer, or he could become a decent NHL starter / back-up, similar to Bernier. 

This is the first time you've admitted that Comrie has potential though, so maybe all of this back and forth for days wasn't completely useless... So now explain to me why you thought / think it was a smart move by Yzerman to let Comrie go for nothing, when he could have sent him directly to Grand Rapids? I mean, it took a full week for the trickle down effect to hurt the Griffins. They play tonight, and could have had a reliable goalie like Comrie, but instead Poulin will start with Nagle backing up. Our goaltending depth is aaawwful...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I've never once said that Ehn can not improve. Sure, he may have potential, but potential to be what?

You quite literally said that:

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So what's your point? Comrie has potential and Ehn doesn't?

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

In my opinion, yes.

Have you been midday drinking again?

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't see him as anything more than a 4th liner (at best) at the NHL level.

That's fair to think. I think Turgeon will get better as a player, but I don't think he'll ever be an NHLer.

I like Ehn a helluva a lot more than I ever liked Jurco/Emmerton/Andersson/Mursak/Frk/Ferraro/Nestrasil. He might have less offensive talent then all of those names, but he plays superb defense and almost always makes the right play. I can't say that about any of those other names, and that's probably why none of them have NHL jobs right now. Like Glendening, Ehn has found himself a nice little niche role. Maybe he'll be like Glendog and play higher up the lineup when he's older. Maybe he'll always be a 4th line PKer. If the later is the case that's fine with me. He's already pretty darn good at that role and I expect him to get even better at it with time. I'll remind you Ehn basically skipped the AHL entirely. This kids good at what he does.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Svechnikov also has potential, but in my opinion, his potential is much higher. He could, if he can stay healthy and everything goes right, become a middle six winger at the NHL level.

Well naturally he should have more potential. He's a first round pick. But that draft pedigree comes with much higher expectations. And by that measure Svech has been a massive disappointment so far. And for that reason he has my suck label, and yeah I would see if Carolina is interested in obtaining him for the right price. He REALLY needed to have a big season this year and it's been so underwhelming.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Comrie also has potential, but goalies take a lot longer to develop, and are so much harder to gauge, so he could be a career AHLer, or he could become a decent NHL starter / back-up, similar to Bernier.

I don't necessarily agree with any of this.

Some good goalies take longer to develop. Many don't. The one's who do take a long time to develop tend to be crappy cast offs like McCollum and Comrie.

You think Comrie has the potential to be similar to a Bernier? You know Bernier was already a full time back up at 22 years old right? Comrie is 24 already.

Look at Winnipegs situation with Comrie. The only NHL caliber goalie on their roster is Hellebuyck who broke into the league at 22 just like Bernier. They are opting to keep Brossoit as their backup over Comrie, and Brossoit's play in net has been awful. I imagine if Chevy had any inkling that Comrie would ever be an NHLer they'd be getting him looks right now to see if he can replace Brossoit.

I don't really buy into the meme that goalies are so difficult to gauge. I didn't see he anything noteworthy in his time here, and it appears Yzerman didn't either.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

This is the first time you've admitted that Comrie has potential though, so maybe all of this back and forth for days wasn't completely useless... So now explain to me why you thought / think it was a smart move by Yzerman to let Comrie go for nothing, when he could have sent him directly to Grand Rapids? I mean, it took a full week for the trickle down effect to hurt the Griffins. They play tonight, and could have had a reliable goalie like Comrie, but instead Poulin will start with Nagle backing up. Our goaltending depth is aaawwful...

I don't think Yzerman cares as much as you do about slightly improving the net-minding in GR.

Poulin is historically an average AHL goaltender. Nagle has been good in GR this year. Pickard will be back there soon enough. Adding Comrie to the mix maybe could be a slight improvement for the time being, but I think it's slight enough for Yzerman to not really give a s***.

I also look at it this way: Comrie had 2 years left on his contract. Yzerman will be looking to eliminate unwanted contracts and open up the roster this summer. He already has Pickard locked up as his AHL guy, so he may not want another permenant AHL goalie taking up a contract against the limit. And all in all having two AHL goalies locked up is redundant. I'm sure he's hoping Larsson or someone else will take that AHL back up role next year.

Edited January 15, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You quite literally said that:

Have you been midday drinking again?

Nah, no midday drinking for me today... unfortunately...

I guess that's sort of the same thing. Kind of... I think Ehn could possibly improve, slightly. But I don't think he has "potential" as a long-term NHLer...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That's fair to think. I think Turgeon will get better as a player, but I don't think he'll ever be an NHLer.

I like Ehn a helluva a lot more than I ever liked Jurco/Emmerton/Andersson/Mursak/Frk/Ferraro/Nestrasil. He might have less offensive talent then all of those names, but he plays superb defense and almost always makes the right play. I can't say that about any of those other names, and that's probably why none of them have NHL jobs right now. Like Glendening, Ehn has found himself a nice little niche role. Maybe he'll be like Glendog and play higher up the lineup when he's older. Maybe he'll always be a 4th line PKer. If the later is the case that's fine with me. He's already pretty darn good at that role and I expect him to get even better at it with time. I'll remind you Ehn basically skipped the AHL entirely. This kids good at what he does.

I don't see anything spectacular with Ehn's defensive game, and he provides little to no offense. In my opinion, there are guys that can step in, and provide what he does defensively, while providing more of an offensive punch. I don't see Ehn lasting much longer in the league, but if he turns into anything close to Glendening, I'd be more than happy to admit I was wrong.

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well naturally he should have more potential. He's a first round pick. But that draft pedigree comes with much higher expectations. And by that measure Svech has been a massive disappointment so far. And for that reason he has my suck label, and yeah I would see if Carolina is interested in obtaining him for the right price. He REALLY needed to have a big season this year and it's been so underwhelming.

Yeah, he should have more potential because of where he was drafted, but I don't agree with your "he sucks" just because he hasn't yet reached that potential.

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I don't necessarily agree with any of this.

Some good goalies take longer to develop. Many don't. The one's who do take a long time to develop tend to be crappy cast offs like McCollum and Comrie.

You think Comrie has the potential to be similar to a Bernier? You know Bernier was already a full time back up at 22 years old right? Comrie is 24 already.

Look at Winnipegs situation with Comrie. The only NHL caliber goalie on their roster is Hellebuyck who broke into the league at 22 just like Bernier. They are opting to keep Brossoit as their backup over Comrie, and Brossoit's play in net has been awful. I imagine if Chevy had any inkling that Comrie would ever be an NHLer they'd be getting him looks right now to see if he can replace Brossoit.

I don't really buy into the meme that goalies are so difficult to gauge. I didn't see he anything noteworthy in his time here, and it appears Yzerman didn't either.

I don't think Yzerman cares as much as you do about slightly improving the net-minding in GR.

Poulin is historically an average AHL goaltender. Nagle has been good in GR this year. Pickard will be back there soon enough. Adding Comrie to the mix maybe could be a slight improvement for the time being, but I think it's slight enough for Yzerman to not really give a s***.

I also look at it this way: Comrie had 2 years left on his contract. Yzerman will be looking to eliminate unwanted contracts and open up the roster this summer. He already has Pickard locked up as his AHL guy, so he may not want another permenant AHL goalie taking up a contract against the limit. And all in all having two AHL goalies locked up is redundant. I'm sure he's hoping Larsson or someone else will take that AHL back up role next year.

I don't think the year Bernier entered the league has much to do with what Comrie could become. Rinne didn't crack the NHL full time until he was 26. Does that mean he could become as good as Rinne? No...

We disagree on the timeline of goalies and how difficult they are to project. I guess that's also why we disagree about taking Askarov with our 1st round pick.

Yzerman should care about goaltending depth. Which is why I think he made a mistake not sending Comrie to GR. To be honest, I think maybe Comrie let it be known he didn't want to be here, and if that's the case, f*** 'em. I can't think of a logical reason Yzerman wouldn't retain an asset he just traded for. "Maybe he didn't like what he seen". I get that, but again, after two games? I don't buy that. Maybe it was his attitude? That makes more sense than what he showed (or didn't show) in those two games... I don't know...

Anyway, I'm done disputing the Comrie situation. We clearly disagree. No big deal.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

52 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I guess that's sort of the same thing. Kind of... I think Ehn could possibly improve, slightly. But I don't think he has "potential" as a long-term NHLer...

I don't see anything spectacular with Ehn's defensive game, and he provides little to no offense. In my opinion, there are guys that can step in, and provide what he does defensively, while providing more of an offensive punch. I don't see Ehn lasting much longer in the league, but if he turns into anything close to Glendening, I'd be more than happy to admit I was wrong.

Your lack of faith in Ehn just plain baffles me

Whenever I or someone else poops on young players you're always the one who jumps to their defense. Give them time you say, or they're still young. Hell we've exchanged pages and pages of you defending this rando 24 year old AHL goalie we got for Saarijarvi, who we seem to all agree is poop.

Now we have this young Swedish defensive forward and you want nothing to do with him.

I just don't get it. I know he's not exciting to watch, but this kid has had a pretty impressive career for a forward with minimal offensive talent.

He gets called up to play in Sweden's highest league for a couple games as a very fresh 17 year old, an impressive feat. Proceeds to get drafted in the 4th round by the Red Wings (a Hakan Andersson pick). Gets called up again as an 18 year old for Frolunda's playoff run. Makes Frolunda's team full time at 19... again pretty impressive. Holland brings him to NA at 22, and he basically skips the AHL entirely and makes the Red Wings squad shortly into his first season, jumping clean over some very solid AHL players and prospects. Now he's 23 and on the 4th line delivering solid defensive work and playing the system (maybe you disagree) and he has the next 3-5 seasons to develop further and grow... and you have no interest in him *visible confusion*

He's never gonna be a flashy Jurco type or offensive guy, but I think we have young solid 4th C shutdown guy, potentially 3C shutdown guy on our hands. It's not a big piece, but it's a piece to build our bottom 6 around.

I never thought Glendog was gonna be more than a 4th liner, but look at him now. Playing up and down the lineup with an A on his chest as a guy who just plain plays textbook hockey. I'm seeing a lot of similarities there. Ehn just needs to get stronger and heavier on the puck at this point.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, he should have more potential because of where he was drafted, but I don't agree with your "he sucks" just because he hasn't yet reached that potential.

He sucks in relation to my expectations for this player. Lots of players far below him in his draft class are hitting or approaching 100, 200, and even 300 GP in the NHL already. And here he is as a 19th overall pick with 20 GP and he's a mediocre AHL player. I know the year lost to injury is an excuse, but to say this doesn't SUCK and isn't a huge disappointment would be a tremendous lie on my part. The windows are closing for this kid and his ELC is up this year.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think the year Bernier entered the league has much to do with what Comrie could become. Rinne didn't crack the NHL full time until he was 26. Does that mean he could become as good as Rinne? No...

I mean Rinne was never really gonna get a shot until Vokoun and Mason left that team. Once they did he was shutout city. Howard "developed late" too but I could see a clear argument that he and Rinne could have probably made the NHL a lot sooner in different organizations. Howard was stuck behind Osgood, Hasek, and Legace for what like 4 seasons? He's like the poster boy for over-ripening. But I do agree that probably gave his career some longevity. Mr. Mrazek is the poster boy for under-ripening...

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Yzerman should care about goaltending depth. Which is why I think he made a mistake not sending Comrie to GR. To be honest, I think maybe Comrie let it be known he didn't want to be here, and if that's the case, f*** 'em. I can't think of a logical reason Yzerman wouldn't retain an asset he just traded for. "Maybe he didn't like what he seen". I get that, but again, after two games? I don't buy that. Maybe it was his attitude? That makes more sense than what he showed (or didn't show) in those two games... I don't know...

WE only saw 2 games of Comrie... Yzerman and co had him in Red Wings practices for over 2 weeks. I'm sure Comrie is a fine kid, they just saw no real future there, otherwise they would have found a way to keep him.

Yzerman should absolutely be concerned about tendy depth. I think you're exaggerating a bit about our depth struggles and Comries ability to alleviate them. We have no depth in the NHL right now sure, but GR is fine. Pickard is your standard AHL goalie. Poulin is your standard AHL goalie. Nagle is an ECHL goalie but has played well in the AHL so far... And Comrie is your standard AHL goalie. I don't think adding Comrie to GR suddenly gets us the Calder Cup.

[krsmith17 7,191]

49 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Your lack of faith in Ehn just plain baffles me

Whenever I or someone else poops on young players you're always the one who jumps to their defense. Give them time you say, or they're still young. Hell we've exchanged pages and pages of you defending this rando 24 year old AHL goalie we got for Saarijarvi, who we seem to all agree is poop.

For the most part, I've only defended players I feel have top 6 / top 4 potential, Jurco and Smith foolishly included, but also Larkin, Mantha, DeKeyser, etc. I don't feel Ehn has that sort of upside. I see him as a very replaceable 4th line winger.

To be fair, I'm not really defending Comrie as much as I am bashing the non-move to bring him back into the organization for added depth. I would have liked to see him stick with the team a little longer, but it is what it is...

55 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I never thought Glendog was gonna be more than a 4th liner, but look at him now. Playing up and down the lineup with an A on his chest as a guy who just plain plays textbook hockey. I'm seeing a lot of similarities there. Ehn just needs to get stronger and heavier on the puck at this point.

I don't think Glendening should ever play up the lineup either. I love Glendening for what he is, but what he is is a 4th line center / winger. He can play on the 3rd line in a pinch, but he should never see time in the top six.

58 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He sucks in relation to my expectations for this player. Lots of players far below him in his draft class are hitting or approaching 100, 200, and even 300 GP in the NHL already. And here he is as a 19th overall pick with 20 GP and he's a mediocre AHL player. I know the year lost to injury is an excuse, but to say this doesn't SUCK and isn't a huge disappointment would be a tremendous lie on my part. The windows are closing for this kid and his ELC is up this year.

I think it's totally fair to be down on a player, but to say he sucks is dumb to me, but this is just the Larkin argument all over again. I don't get it, but whatever. You do you.

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

WE only saw 2 games of Comrie... Yzerman and co had him in Red Wings practices for over 2 weeks. I'm sure Comrie is a fine kid, they just saw no real future there, otherwise they would have found a way to keep him.

Yzerman should absolutely be concerned about tendy depth. I think you're exaggerating a bit about our depth struggles and Comries ability to alleviate them. We have no depth in the NHL right now sure, but GR is fine. Pickard is your standard AHL goalie. Poulin is your standard AHL goalie. Nagle is an ECHL goalie but has played well in the AHL so far... And Comrie is your standard AHL goalie. I don't think adding Comrie to GR suddenly gets us the Calder Cup.

I just finished watching the Griffins game, and Poulin played well. We lost 2-1 in a shootout and Poulin stopped 25 of 26 shots, 1 of 3 in the shootout. Hopefully he can keep that going.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

17 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

For the most part, I've only defended players I feel have top 6 / top 4 potential, Jurco and Smith foolishly included, but also Larkin, Mantha, DeKeyser, etc. I don't feel Ehn has that sort of upside. I see him as a very replaceable 4th line winger.

I mean why ignore the bottom 6?  We're never going to have 6 ELC players with top6 potential ready to play responsible NHL hockey year after year. We absolutely need solid bottom 6 players like Ehn and Glendening down there. Hunting for new ones every year and overpaying them on the UFA market doesn't seem like a very wise choice.

There's a reason Glendening will have decent value on the trade market. Competitive teams need players like this. We're not competitive yet, but hopefully by the time Ehn is 26/27 we will be.  

23 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think Glendening should ever play up the lineup either. I love Glendening for what he is, but what he is is a 4th line center / winger. He can play on the 3rd line in a pinch, but he should never see time in the top six.

Eh I think Glendog is solid 3rd liner on a lot of teams. 4th liner on a very deep one.

I often advocate re-signing Glendening when trade talks come up because he's so great at his role I want to keep him. He's an upscale bottom 6 PK forward. Those aren't as easy to find as one would think, and most teams keep these guys once they have them.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I mean why ignore the bottom 6?  We're never going to have 6 ELC players with top6 potential ready to play responsible NHL hockey year after year. We absolutely need solid bottom 6 players like Ehn and Glendening down there. Hunting for new ones every year and overpaying them on the UFA market doesn't seem like a very wise choice.

There's a reason Glendening will have decent value on the trade market. Competitive teams need players like this. We're not competitive yet, but hopefully by the time Ehn is 26/27 we will be.  

Eh I think Glendog is solid 3rd liner on a lot of teams. 4th liner on a very deep one.

I often advocate re-signing Glendening when trade talks come up because he's so great at his role I want to keep him. He's an upscale bottom 6 PK forward. Those aren't as easy to find as one would think, and most teams keep these guys once they have them.

I'm not "ignoring the bottom six", I just don't see Ehn as a long term option in the bottom six. You're lumping Ehn and Glendening together, and that's where we disagree. I think Glendening is one of the better bottom six (4th line) players in the league. I think if Ehn were waived tomorrow, he'd go unclaimed. Maybe he becomes as good / valuable as Glendening in a few years, but I don't see it. I've also advocated re-signing Glendening. He's become one of my favorite players on this team. He's exactly what you want in a 4th line center. Capable of shutting down the opposing teams top lines, and also chip in a little offensively.

[marcaractac 3,963]

16 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Svechnikov has potential. Ehn has potential. And even Comrie has potential.

Svech has sucked and continues to suck this season which is why he remains in the AHL. Will he get better? Certainly. He's 23.

I think Svech has reached a point in his career where he should turn his focus on becoming a great role player if he wants a long NHL career. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not "ignoring the bottom six", I just don't see Ehn as a long term option in the bottom six. You're lumping Ehn and Glendening together, and that's where we disagree. I think Glendening is one of the better bottom six (4th line) players in the league. I think if Ehn were waived tomorrow, he'd go unclaimed. Maybe he becomes as good / valuable as Glendening in a few years, but I don't see it. I've also advocated re-signing Glendening. He's become one of my favorite players on this team. He's exactly what you want in a 4th line center. Capable of shutting down the opposing teams top lines, and also chip in a little offensively.

If Nestrasil gets claimed, Ehn would get claimed. He's young, still has room to improve, and he's already a solid defensive forward. Teams want that.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

If Nestrasil gets claimed, Ehn would get claimed. He's young, still has room to improve, and he's already a solid defensive forward. Teams want that.

If DLR gets claimed AND gets traded for Fabbri straight up. U kno Ehn is gettin' claimed.

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

If Nestrasil gets claimed, Ehn would get claimed. He's young, still has room to improve, and he's already a solid defensive forward. Teams want that.

 

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If DLR gets claimed AND gets traded for Fabbri straight up. U kno Ehn is gettin' claimed.

Of course there's a chance he'd get claimed, but I wouldn't bet on it. If we did waive him, I would be hoping he'd go unclaimed to send him down to GR for added depth. But if he were claimed, and placed on waivers again a couple weeks later, and we didn't put in a claim to immediately send him down to GR, I'd say it was a bad move by Yzerman. At which point, I'm sure you would both agree...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

 

Of course there's a chance he'd get claimed, but I wouldn't bet on it. If we did waive him, I would be hoping he'd go unclaimed to send him down to GR for added depth. But if he were claimed, and placed on waivers again a couple weeks later, and we didn't put in a claim to immediately send him down to GR, I'd say it was a bad move by Yzerman. At which point, I'm sure you would both agree...

If Yzerman waives Ehn at all I'll be ******* pissed. I really don't think Yzerman is that stupid though.