Midterm Grades per Mlive article

[Dabura 12,232]

16 hours ago, mackel said:

Larkin has the best linemates available to him and the ice time of a 1C since he's the best we've got... you can't have it both ways here, he gets the opportunity because of the crap team he's on it's not the crap team that's inhibiting him.

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.

Like I said, I'd like to see Larkin kick ass and take names like he did last season. I think Wings fans should be disappointed by what he's shown so far this season. I think it's fair to say he shares some of the blame for the team sucking so bad this season. I think the "You can't have it both ways" point rings somewhat true.

At the same time, though, I *do* think we can have it both ways, if by "have it both ways" we mean "believe Larkin is more than a 20-goal, 50-point player and that the makeup of this team isn't doing him any favors."

I get the argument that the lack of high-end talent on this team means Larkin is getting ice time that he otherwise might not get and that this in turn means he has no excuse for not scoring like he did last season if he is in fact the player we saw last season. That's fair enough. But we should also acknowledge that this team is a disaster (pretty much by design) and that Larkin is the least of our problems.

We should acknowledge that Larkin has absolutely nowhere to hide on this team. That he's the only top-six centerman on this roster. That opposing teams can put 90% of their focus and energy into jamming him. That the line of Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha is pretty electric and Mantha's injuries have taken it off the table and forced us to make do with Bertuzzi-Larkin-Fabbri. That, given all of this, scoring at a 53-point pace is maybe what you would expect from a good-not-spectacular 1C.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Dabura

[Dabura 12,232]

Jonathan Toews has been flanked by Patrick Kane for his entire NHL career. Despite this, Toews has cracked 70 points only two times and he's cracked 80 points only once. "Well yeah but his two-game makes him elite, elite, elite." Meh. IMO, Toews is a good-not-spectacular 1C. You can win a Cup with a good-not-spectacular 1C, you just need top talent at other positions.

[krsmith17 7,191]

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 1/8/2020 at 5:05 AM, The 91 of Ryans said:

Because you are a Zadina hater poser. At least @mackel has convictions. 

Also, bold is U

Mackel is definitely more hardcore than me. He has all the balls in this sense.

I view Zadina as a regular top 6 winger like Tatar and nothing more. That's still a great thing... I just wanted more out of a #3 ranked player. Whether that ask is fair is up to you.

On 1/8/2020 at 7:40 AM, krsmith17 said:

I don't "weasel" around any arguments. You just keep asking the same dumb questions, and misinterpret a lot of what I'm saying. When Comrie was originally waived and shortly after not re-claimed, I didn't make a big deal out of it. I said it was a dumb move, but it is what it is. Comrie has sucked, but he at least has the potential to get much better. Hopefully it doesn't bite us in the ass. All you take from that is, "dumb move". Disregard everything else I said, and assume I think Comrie is the next big thing. You do it all the time...

U avoided answering my questions on the subject for a while. That's all I mean and why I repeat them.

Ur assertion that Comrie should play over Howard is where I truly draw issue. It's not hard for me to attack that, it's a pretty misguided notion even with Howards down year. And that's why Howard remains on this team and Comrie doesn't. Low hanging fruit honestly, I don't why you choose to eat it.

On 1/8/2020 at 8:11 AM, mackel said:

Funny that's what you're doing with this Bergeron comparison... but it's easier to throw shade when you're clearly wrong than admit it... Larkin is a very good 2C thrust into a 1C role... end of story. 

They can't tolerate having their hype train positions challenged... and any conformation of their bias is celebrated. 

It's a wonder after last night's game some of these goofs aren't expecting Neilson to have a resurgence and be a legit 2C again... he did afterall have 2 goals.

Larkin is sitting around Zach Kassian, James Neal, and Brett Connolly in terms of points right now. He deserves every bit of scrutiny. This team sucks and anyone who tries to convince you it doesn't deserves the scrutiny too. If Larkin doesn't want the heat he needs to be better.

On 1/8/2020 at 3:27 PM, krsmith17 said:

So you say...

No, it's not, but it's likely...

WTF?!?!?

This may be the dumbest thing you've said yet...

Totes disagree. Larkin has no excuse. All the ice time. The best line mates on the team most of of the time.

On 1/8/2020 at 7:40 AM, krsmith17 said:

So you think Pickard, Poulin and Nagle are all better than Comrie?

Yes. At least just as good really.

On 1/8/2020 at 7:40 AM, krsmith17 said:

Comrie is as good or better than all of those guys, but more importantly, is still young enough that he can potentially get much better. You can say all you want that not claiming Comrie was the right move, but you're dead wrong. Even if all he ever becomes is a solid AHL starter, it was still a bad non-move.

Ur putting urself out there quite a bit for McColllum 2.0.

It was a nice try, but in the end a low risk mistake.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 1/8/2020 at 7:40 AM, krsmith17 said:

I'm wrong on a lot of players, am I? I've admitted several times that I was dead wrong on a few, namely Smith and Jurco. It's cute though that every time we have a debate, you bring up "remember that time you were wrong on Brendan Smith?... durr". I've been right on a lot projections, and you've been wrong on quite a few projections. Neither, I care to point out on a regular basis though. The difference is, when I believe in a player, I take a stance. Your opinion changes like the wind. You've even admitted as much...

What projections have I been wrong about?

What players have I flip flopped on?

I suspect you have nothing to back any of this up. Meanwhile I can dig in to you on your bad player evaluations pretty easily. That's the difference. I warn and encourage you to go down this road.

Edited January 11, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

11 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

 

"Okay with being a 55 pt player"

Loser

"I'm not disappointed"

Delusional loser

"I wanna help this team win in a tight game, a playoff game, where it matters"

Try getting to the playoffs first son

[mackel 766]

11 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

 

I want to win the lottery... It's as likely to happen as a 100pt Larkin season.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mackel is definitely more hardcore than me. He has all the balls in this sense.

I view Zadina as a regular top 6 winger like Tatar and nothing more. That's still a great thing... I just wanted more out of a #3 ranked player. Whether that ask is fair is up to you.

 

The early returns suggest he'll be better than Tatar. 

I've said this before when I was defending Rasmussen but in five or six years, if this team is great, I won't care who was picked when. Translation: if Zadina's a top six winger on a contender I'm not going to stress about his draft position. Because why complain? 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

The early returns suggest he'll be better than Tatar. 

I've said this before when I was defending Rasmussen but in five or six years, if this team is great, I won't care who was picked when. Translation: if Zadina's a top six winger on a contender I'm not going to stress about his draft position. Because why complain? 

The only reason my position exists is because folks refuse to have rational conversation on the subject. Examining Zadina's game for better or for worse is basically inviting those to call u a doubter/blasphemer.

Edited January 11, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

The only reason my position exists is because folks refuse to have rational conversation on the subject. Examining Zadina's game for better or for worse is basically inviting those to call u a doubter/blasphemer.

I understand. But when slappy fanboys are doing their happy Zadina dance it makes you want to go a little in the other direction. I used to do this to KRS with Mantha. I may be out of line assuming this but my bet is that's where you are with Zadina. You maybe like him more than you're letting on.

I can have a rational convo about Zadina. I'd rather have QHughes right now personally but I like him. And it's a war of attrition. Hell, people don't even talk about Rasmussen anymore and he was a top 10 pick. Three years ago that's all we talked about. If we pick Lafreniere no one will be scrutinizing Zadina's draft position. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I understand. But when slappy fanboys are doing their happy Zadina dance it makes you want to go a little in the other direction. I used to do this to KRS with Mantha. I may be out of line assuming this but my bet is that's where you are with Zadina. You maybe like him more than you're letting on.

I can have a rational convo about Zadina. I'd rather have QHughes right now personally but I like him. And it's a war of attrition. Hell, people don't even talk about Rasmussen anymore and he was a top 10 pick. Three years ago that's all we talked about. If we pick Lafreniere no one will be scrutinizing Zadina's draft position. 

No doubt Zads is in an upward trajectory right now. I have no complaints about that
We just need another Yzerman, not another Tatar.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No doubt Zads is in an upward trajectory right now. I have no complaints about that
We just need another Yzerman, not another Tatar.

I would be happy with a couple of Tatars right now.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I would be happy with a couple of Tatars right now.

Yeah so we can pick late in the first round and extend this dead wings for another 30 years yeah

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yeah so we can pick late in the first round and extend this dead wings for another 30 years yeah

Yeah. Thats exactly what I meant.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yeah. Thats exactly what I meant.

Average top6 wingers seem to be our bag these days

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ur assertion that Comrie should play over Howard is where I truly draw issue. It's not hard for me to attack that, it's a pretty misguided notion even with Howards down year. And that's why Howard remains on this team and Comrie doesn't. Low hanging fruit honestly, I don't why you choose to eat it.

Your assertion that Comrie should not have been claimed to add to a terribly shallow position is where I truly draw issue. It's not hard for me to attack that. It's a misguided notion, even with Comrie's struggles. 

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin is sitting around Zach Kassian, James Neal, and Brett Connolly in terms of points right now. He deserves every bit of scrutiny. This team sucks and anyone who tries to convince you it doesn't deserves the scrutiny too. If Larkin doesn't want the heat he needs to be better.

I've never said that Larkin doesn't deserve scrutiny. That's not what this conversation was about. It was whether or not Larkin is a true 1C. Last year he was. This year, he's not? Just because he's struggling offensively on the worst team in the league? That's bulls***! Also, Larkin is "being better". 7 points in his past 7 games. He was the best player on the ice last night. He's still only 23, and is a more than capable 1C.

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Totes disagree. Larkin has no excuse. All the ice time. The best line mates on the team most of of the time.

You're really not this dumb. You think playing with the "best" linemates on the Red Wings, is the same thing as playing with the best linemates on the Bruins? There's a massive gap in skill level between those two teams and especially the top two wingers on each team. Again, situation and circumstances matter. Give Larkin Pastrnak and Marchand, and I guarantee he's a lot closer to a point per game than his current 0.64 points per game.

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ur putting urself out there quite a bit for McColllum 2.0.

It was a nice try, but in the end a low risk mistake.

Yeah, saying we should have kept a young goaltender with potential over an aging veteran that will probably only play another 10 games this season, lose at least half of them (allowing 4+ goals per game), and retire after this season, was really dumb... Then after it didn't work out saying "oh well, hopefully we don't end up regretting it" was really "putting myself out there"...

Try harder man...

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What projections have I been wrong about?

What players have I flip flopped on?

I suspect you have nothing to back any of this up. Meanwhile I can dig in to you on your bad player evaluations pretty easily. That's the difference. I warn and encourage you to go down this road.

You were all aboard the Larkin hype train. Now he's having a bad year and "he sucks". You were all aboard the Mantha is lazy and he sucks train. Now he's finally showing how good he can be (when healthy), and "he's one of the few players worth keeping around". You're one of two people I've seen call Zadina a "bust", since then you've started to backpedal a bit. Give it another season and you will have totally flip-flopped on your projection. That's fine though. Nothing wrong with that. You're a in the moment, what have you done for me lately kind of guy. I'm a take a stance and stick with it until proven wrong kind of guy. 

I don't care what you "dig up". If you really have the time to do that, good on ya. I've admitted being wrong on projections, but I guarantee I've been right a lot more than wrong.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I understand. But when slappy fanboys are doing their happy Zadina dance it makes you want to go a little in the other direction. I used to do this to KRS with Mantha. I may be out of line assuming this but my bet is that's where you are with Zadina. You maybe like him more than you're letting on.

I can have a rational convo about Zadina. I'd rather have QHughes right now personally but I like him. And it's a war of attrition. Hell, people don't even talk about Rasmussen anymore and he was a top 10 pick. Three years ago that's all we talked about. If we pick Lafreniere no one will be scrutinizing Zadina's draft position. 

Yes, you did do this with me with Mantha. CRL was on your side on that one as well. I get the last laugh on that one though. Mantha is a stud, goal scoring power forward like I projected him to be.

I know that's where CRL was, at least initially, with Zadina. I refuse to believe that he actually thought he was a "bust" at 18/19 years old.

The thing is, that sort of mentality is what got me in trouble with Brendan Smith. Everyone would say "Smith sucks". He didn't in the beginning. He was just young, and made stupid gaffes like every young defenseman. I would defend him, and eventually I took defending him to far, even when his suckage became apparent. The same (opposite) thing is what I think is happening with CRL on Zadina. Everyone was gushing over him the day he was drafted, and CRL was here to tell everyone he's "not that good", and now he's starting to take it too far, even when he's proving that he maybe "is that good"...

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No doubt Zads is in an upward trajectory right now. I have no complaints about that
We just need another Yzerman, not another Tatar.

We're not getting another Yzerman 6th overall though. No one cares that Zadina was "projected to go top 3"... He didn't. He was picked 6th overall. We're hoping to get our Yzerman in this upcoming draft... We need an elite level player. That doesn't make the high end players like Zadina any less valuable.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, you did do this with me with Mantha. CRL was on your side on that one as well. I get the last laugh on that one though. Mantha is a stud, goal scoring power forward like I projected him to be.

Let's wait and see if he can play half a season. Before you chuckle too much.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Let's wait and see if he can play half a season. Before you chuckle too much.

Fair, but none of Mantha's injuries should effect him long term. I hope he can stay healthy next season, and if he does, I'm sure he'll be a 35+ goal scorer.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Fair, but none of Mantha's injuries should effect him long term. I hope he can stay healthy next season, and if he does, I'm sure he'll be a 35+ goal scorer.

"There's always next season" says LGWs about Mantha. Someday he'll score 30. 

[Dabura 12,232]

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

The only reason my position exists is because folks refuse to have rational conversation on the subject. Examining Zadina's game for better or for worse is basically inviting those to call u a doubter/blasphemer.

I was talking about Zadina's game in the 2018 draft thread months before we'd drafted him. I've always been up for talking about his game. Thing is, I've never seen much in his game that's worth criticizing.

Mackel's always been the big Zadina critic here and he talks about him in a way that strongly suggests he's never actually seen him play and/or he's trolling.

You say you could write a book about all the things you don't like about Zadina's game. I'd like to read that book. The idea that I've missed an entire book's worth of shortcomings in Zadina's game genuinely intrigues me. The fact that I badly misjudged his NHL readiness in 2018 is a humbling reminder that I don't know anything about anything. I'm just some dude on an internet message board. So maybe I am, in fact, totally wrong about the kid. I'm open to being persuaded.

Would I bet good money on Zadina becoming as good as, say, Pastrnak? At this time, no. I think it's fair to say he's trending closer to Tatar than to Pastrnak. But I feel like a very small minority of Wings fans have kind of fallen in love with the "Tatar 2.0" angle and are going HAM on it when this kid just turned 20 a month ago and, to my eye, is playing pretty solid hockey, all things considered.

Like, I see people say he doesn't have any It Factor to his game. My position on that is I simply disagree. He isn't knocking anyone's socks off with superstar ability, no. And that's kind of a bummer, yes. But, for example, I've seen the puck follow him around on the forecheck and cycle in a way that basically doesn't happen with your average 20-year-old Wings prospect. It's a small thing, but it makes me smile when I see it. If Zadina isn't going to flat-out obliterate the opposition this season, I at least want to see some promising signs that suggest he's only scratching the surface of his potential. Your mileage may vary, but I believe he's showing some signs.

Again tho, I'm open to having my mind changed.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

"There's always next season" says LGWs about Mantha. Someday he'll score 30. 

Well he was on pace for 34 before the injury. I think it's fair for fans to believe he's capable of hitting those numbers if he can stay healthy...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Your assertion that Comrie should not have been claimed to add to a terribly shallow position is where I truly draw issue. It's not hard for me to attack that. It's a misguided notion, even with Comrie's struggles.

Why? We have Pickard and Nagle in GR. Why would we need ANOTHER minor league tendy?

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I've never said that Larkin doesn't deserve scrutiny. That's not what this conversation was about. It was whether or not Larkin is a true 1C. Last year he was. This year, he's not? Just because he's struggling offensively on the worst team in the league? That's bulls***! Also, Larkin is "being better". 7 points in his past 7 games. He was the best player on the ice last night. He's still only 23, and is a more than capable 1C.

Mantha's not struggling, besides with his injury. Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having great years. What's Larkin's excuse?

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You're really not this dumb. You think playing with the "best" linemates on the Red Wings, is the same thing as playing with the best linemates on the Bruins? There's a massive gap in skill level between those two teams and especially the top two wingers on each team. Again, situation and circumstances matter. Give Larkin Pastrnak and Marchand, and I guarantee he's a lot closer to a point per game than his current 0.64 points per game.

So how was Larkin able to have such a great season last year? There was no pastranak or marchand on that team

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, saying we should have kept a young goaltender with potential over an aging veteran that will probably only play another 10 games this season, lose at least half of them (allowing 4+ goals per game), and retire after this season, was really dumb... Then after it didn't work out saying "oh well, hopefully we don't end up regretting it" was really "putting myself out there"...

Try harder man..

Howard will play more NHL games than Comrie will next year.

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You were all aboard the Larkin hype train. Now he's having a bad year and "he sucks". You were all aboard the Mantha is lazy and he sucks train. Now he's finally showing how good he can be (when healthy), and "he's one of the few players worth keeping around". You're one of two people I've seen call Zadina a "bust", since then you've started to backpedal a bit. Give it another season and you will have totally flip-flopped on your projection. That's fine though. Nothing wrong with that. You're a in the moment, what have you done for me lately kind of guy. I'm a take a stance and stick with it until proven wrong kind of guy. 

I don't care what you "dig up". If you really have the time to do that, good on ya. I've admitted being wrong on projections, but I guarantee I've been right a lot more than wrong.

So wait if Zadina has a great year next year you want me to keep crapping on him? Because one should "take a stance and stick with it"? That's so hilariously clown world level lol. If Larkin has a bad season, or Mantha has a bad season, or anyone has a season below their capabilities I'm going to call them on it. If they have good seasons I'll compliment them on it. That's pretty rational and pretty fair I feel llike...

17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

We're not getting another Yzerman 6th overall though. No one cares that Zadina was "projected to go top 3"... He didn't. He was picked 6th overall. We're hoping to get our Yzerman in this upcoming draft... We need an elite level player. That doesn't make the high end players like Zadina any less valuable.

No ur absolutely correct. Draft spot shouldn't matter. Talent matters. And Zadina doesn't have enough of it.

But because of his draft pedigree I think we could sucker another team into overpaying for him while he's still young.

 

17 hours ago, Dabura said:

You say you could write a book about all the things you don't like about Zadina's game. I'd like to read that book. The idea that I've missed an entire book's worth of shortcomings in Zadina's game genuinely intrigues me. The fact that I badly misjudged his NHL readiness in 2018 is a humbling reminder that I don't know anything about anything. I'm just some dude on an internet message board. So maybe I am, in fact, totally wrong about the kid. I'm open to being persuaded.

I have written pages about his shortcomings. No one ever responds to them. That's what's frustrating. I'll try to dig my last one up momentarily here.

EDIT: Here,

On 12/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Although there isn't an established agreed-upon definition of hockey IQ, I imagine I would define it as how quickly a player can process a situation they're in. This is highly related to anticipating plays, which allows players to keep up with, or get ahead of the play, and get themselves in a position to more effectively use their stick skills, shot, body, etc.. This is distinct from, but not unrelated to, decision making, which is what the player does once they process the situation. A player can have good decision-making ability but not good IQ and vice-versa. However I would posit that IQ is the crux of a good NHL hockey player: A player can be elite without an elite shot or strength or skating, but they can't be elite without elite IQ.

Whenever I'm watching Zadina I find that in my mind I'm constantly rewarding him for not messing up, rather than for making good plays. So I tried applying the same standard to Ehn: Not only does Ehn not make many mistakes, he makes a lot of slick little low-key smart decisions that I would be thrilled to see Zadina making, and this is Christoffer freaking Ehn, the gold standard of average checking line fringe NHLer we're talking about. What I notice about Zadina is that when he doesn't have the puck, he's always chasing the play. At first glance it looks like he's not a good enough skater to make it to the play in time... but then you see him flying down the ice. He's not slow of foot. IMO what is going on there is he's not processing the situation fast enough to use his speed to consistently get involved in the play and get into open positions when his teammates have the puck. He doesn't look completely lost, he looks just slow soemtimes. Now, I think his decision-making has improved as he's calmed down trying to force plays and do everything himself, but he still seems just as peripheral in the unfolding play as before. When he does have the puck he can use his skills and decision-making to make decent plays sometimes, but he never generates plays, and I think a lot of that has to do with IQ. He loses the puck way too easily, and while that can be fixed, I still don't think his play away from the puck has proven improvable enough for him to be considered a future elite forward.

This is in contrast to players like Bertuzzi, and even Mantha and Athanasiou. Athanasiou is a good example of a player that can process the play well but doesn't necessarily make great decisions, often forcing a play. Which I imagine is why he often sticks to his run and gun role. And he's actually smart to adapt his game that way. Mantha also seems to have the competency to be a dominant player but there are other mental blockages stopping him from playing at that level 100% of the time. I do think this year he's been much more consistently great though. But Bertuzzi is the main one I want to discuss because he's a prime example of a player that's average in his skating, shooting, and stick skills, but his IQ is so through the roof that he's consistently effective. He's by no means a great offensive talent, yet he still consistently generates offense just by getting to the right parts of the ice to make the play.

To address a very common response to worry about our prospects, Zadina specifically, I wonder how improvable hockey IQ really is. I'm extremely suspicious about claims that such a complex and automatic judgment process can be systematically developed like decision-making or skating can. If it is the case that IQ mostly "is what it is" then the whole spiel about "he's only 20"/"give him time"/"be patient" doesn't apply because his IQ has already shown to be, in my opinion at least, inadequate.

The overarching point, though, is that for the most part (I think) Zadina hasn't shown the IQ we should expect given the ceilings most of us have set for him at the draft.

In regards to his defense I think we agree much more here. He's much more of a two-way presence than Hudler ever was. But again, I come back to IQ. Is he ever gonna have the IQ to process the game defensively like Z, Dats, Bertuzzi, Larkin do? Personally I don't see it.

In regards to the Hudler comaprison more fully, they're both small, not particularly slow or fast, both have nice shots, and both need strong linemates to set them up. This doesn't make them useless players, you just have know how to use that type of player. They're never going to be Kane or Kucherov style wingers who can drive play, but they could be useful next to a Larkin or Gaudreau.

Edited January 12, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[F.Michael 4,590]

17 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

"There's always next season" says LGWs about Mantha. Someday he'll score 30. 

I don't wish to be that a-hole that says it, but in this case I feel if he hasn't hit the 30 plus goal mark by now at the age of 25 - will he ever?

Mantha/AA/Bert - they're not 'kids' anymore still learning the game...Chances are is that what we're seeing is at their 'best' - sorta like Tatar/Nyquist (minus the fact that they had Dats/Hank doing all the work).