Midterm Grades per Mlive article

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I don't wish to be that a-hole that says it, but in this case I feel if he hasn't hit the 30 plus goal mark by now at the age of 25 - will he ever?

Mantha/AA/Bert - they're not 'kids' anymore still learning the game...Chances are is that what we're seeing is at their 'best' - sorta like Tatar/Nyquist (minus the fact that they had Dats/Hank doing all the work).

We have a team literally littered with losers. Some are worse than others but they all suck at the end of the day. They should all be in fear of being traded.

[F.Michael 4,590]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We have a team literally littered with losers. Some are worse than others but they all suck at the end of the day. They should all be in fear of being traded.

Agreed.

IMHO - pretty much every guy on this roster is for sale for the right return...The Wings have a few legit 2nd line forward/2nd pairing Dmen quality players (by our rivals standards), and a poop-ton of 3rd/4th line forwards, and bottom pairing 5/6 Dmen.

Looking back when we made the playoffs - our top players were having impressive seasons by the time they were 23/24...Can't say that about our team today - especially now when it's considered to be a 'young mans game' compared to what is was 15 plus years ago.

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by F.Michael

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, F.Michael said:

Agreed.

IMHO - pretty much every guy on this roster is for sale for the right return...The Wings have a few legit 2nd line quality players (by our rivals standards), and a poop-ton of 3rd/4th line forwards, and bottom pairing 5/6 Dmen.

Looking back when we made the playoffs - our top players were having impressive seasons by the time they were 23/24...Can't say that about our team today - especially now when it's considered to be a 'young mans game' compared to what is was 15 plus years ago.

 

Yeah I mean on paper we have a decent young core

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Fabbri - Athanasiou - Zadina

Hronek

Defense and goaltending is lackluster, but that's still a forward group that should be scoring A LOT.  And if your core isn't working, the solution is CHANGE THE CORE.

Like a growing tree Yzerman needs to prune the weak branches so the good ones can grow stronger. I think that starts with Athanasiou...

[Dabura 12,207]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I have written pages about his shortcomings. No one ever responds to them. That's what's frustrating. I'll try to dig my last one up momentarily here.

EDIT: Here,

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I simply disagree with your main criticisms of Zadina, tbh. Or, at least, I think you're leaning too hard into them. For example, I don't think Zadina is always chasing the play. I think he had a tendency to be behind the play until fairly recently, but, I mean, we all knew he had to adjust to the pace of the North American pro game. Now that he's more comfortable, seems to me like he's chasing the play less.

Holding up Bertuzzi as the model for a not-physically-gifted-but-extremely-smart player strikes me as kind of weak sauce, as it took Bertuzzi a pretty long time to become the player he's become. (Dude was drafted all the way back in 2013.) Was Bertuzzi a 0.76 PPG NHLer at 20 years old? Was he even a *0.55* PPG NHLer at 20 years old? Were we raving about his hockey IQ when he was 20 years old?

[Dabura 12,207]

5 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I don't wish to be that a-hole that says it, but in this case I feel if he hasn't hit the 30 plus goal mark by now at the age of 25 - will he ever?

Mantha/AA/Bert - they're not 'kids' anymore still learning the game...Chances are is that what we're seeing is at their 'best' - sorta like Tatar/Nyquist (minus the fact that they had Dats/Hank doing all the work).

I believe injuries have cost Mantha two 30-goal seasons. 25 goals and 48 points through 67 games last season. 12 goals and 24 points through 29 games this season. Dude is a solid producer. He just can't stay healthy. Which, admittedly, is beginning to concern me a bit. But not enough that I think Yzerman needs to be desperately looking to move him. I might move him for the right defenseman.

I'm kinda over AA. Moving him is probably addition by subtraction.

Bertuzzi's become a really good player. I've got zero beef with him.

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We have a team literally littered with losers. Some are worse than others but they all suck at the end of the day. They should all be in fear of being traded.

Bertuzzi's not a loser at all IMO. In fact I would say he's an over-achiever. Probably the only one this team has. 

 

[Dabura 12,207]

7 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Looking back when we made the playoffs - our top players were having impressive seasons by the time they were 23/24...Can't say that about our team today - especially now when it's considered to be a 'young mans game' compared to what is was 15 plus years ago.

Larkin put up 32 goals and 73 points last season. He did that in 76 games.

Mantha put up 36 points in 60 games in 2016-17. He put up 24 goals and 48 points in 80 games in 2017-18. He put up 25 goals and 48 points in 67 games last season. He's put up 12 goals and 24 points in 29 games this season.

Athanasiou put up 30 goals and 54 points in 76 games last season.

Bertuzzi put up 21 goals and 47 points in 73 games last season. He's put up 16 goals and 34 points in 45 games this season.

Hronek put up 23 points in 46 games last season, as a 20-21-year-old rookie. He's put up 8 goals and 25 points in 43 games this season. He plays hard minutes, all situations.

I'm not saying any of these players is the second coming of Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom, but let's give credit where it's due. If you put these players on a mid-'90s Wings team, they're probably monsters. If you put these players on a mid-2000s Wings team, they're probably monsters. Give this team a Nick Lidstrom and we probably make the playoffs this season. Put young Datsyuk and young Zetterberg on this team and we might not have very nice things to say about those two.

If we're gonna talk about what past leaders were doing in their early 20s...

Datsyuk was 23 years old for his his whole rookie season. He put up 35 points in 70 games. The next season, he put up 51 points in 64 games, as a 24-year-old. Season after that, he put up 68 points in 75 games, as a 25-year-old. Season after that, he exploded: 87 points in 75 games, as a 26-year-old.

Zetterberg was 22 for his whole rookie season. He put up 44 points in 79 games. The next season, he put up 43 points in 61 games, as a 23-year-old. Season after that, he exploded: 85 points in 77 games, as a 24-year-old.

Franzen turned 27 halfway through his rookie season. He never put up superstar numbers in the regular season.

Kronwall hit the scene at 22 or 23 years old. He put up 5 points in 20 games. The next season, he put up 9 points in 27 games, as a 23-24-year-old. Season after that, he put up 22 points in 68 games, as a 24-25-year-old. Season after that, he hit what would ultimately be his career high in points: 51 points in 80 games, as a 25-26-year-old.

So, I mean, yeah, Datsyuk and Zetterberg were really good in their early 20s, but maybe not quite as good as we remember them being.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Dabura

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Bertuzzi's become a really good player. I've got zero beef with him

Great minds.....

[Dabura 12,207]

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Great minds.....

They see Mullet Pirate rollin'. They hatin'.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why? We have Pickard and Nagle in GR. Why would we need ANOTHER minor league tendy?

No we don't have Pickard and Nagle in GR. Nagle is in Toledo where he belong. He's 32 years old and has played 99% of his pro career in the ECHL. He's awful. Kevin Poulin is in Grand Rapids with Pickard, who is also awful. Comrie is arguably better than all three of those guys, but yeah, it was totally a smart move to let him go... Why would we need another minor league tendy? Because outside of Pickard, the rest of them suck, and if we have one injury to Bernier, Howard or Pickard, the Griffins are screwed.

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mantha's not struggling, besides with his injury. Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having great years. What's Larkin's excuse?

So how was Larkin able to have such a great season last year? There was no pastranak or marchand on that team

Larkin "sucks" but Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having "great" years? Bertuzzi has 5 more points than Larkin. Based on Fabbri's point pace, he would have 3 more points than Larkin with the same number of games played. Neither have the defensive responsibility that Larkin has. Larkin deserves the scrutiny, but no one really deserves much praise. Hence why so many felt we didn't deserve an All-Star selection this season.

So Larkin DID have a great season last year? Did you considered him a 1C last year? Of course you did. Because he was. One bad season doesn't change that. It just changes some irrational fans opinion that flip-flop at a moments notice.

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Howard will play more NHL games than Comrie will next year.

The only games Howard should be playing next season are in a beer league. Guy needs to retire. He'll be 36 years old, coming off his worst statistical season ever, and you think he should sign another NHL contract? I hope for Howard's sake, he hangs them up. I've been a big fan over his career, but another season could really sour a lot of fans.

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So wait if Zadina has a great year next year you want me to keep crapping on him? Because one should "take a stance and stick with it"? That's so hilariously clown world level lol. If Larkin has a bad season, or Mantha has a bad season, or anyone has a season below their capabilities I'm going to call them on it. If they have good seasons I'll compliment them on it. That's pretty rational and pretty fair I feel llike...

No, if Zadina had a great year next year, I would expect you to come around on him, just like you did with Mantha. That's completely fair and rational. What isn't fair and rational is calling Zadina a "bust" at the age of 18/19, before ever giving him an opportunity to prove himself, or saying Mantha is "lazy" at the age of 21/22, or saying Larkin sucks because he's having a down season, just coming off a near point per game season. You can be hard on a player for having a bad season, or sceptical of a young player, but to say they suck, or they're a bust, is dumb in my opinion.

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No ur absolutely correct. Draft spot shouldn't matter. Talent matters. And Zadina doesn't have enough of it.

But because of his draft pedigree I think we could sucker another team into overpaying for him while he's still young.

Ok, Zadina doesn't have enough talent. Got it... Zadina is on a very similar trajectory and plays a similar style game as Filip Forsberg. If he becomes a similar player to him, I'm sure we'll all be very happy.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, Dabura said:

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I simply disagree with your main criticisms of Zadina, tbh. Or, at least, I think you're leaning too hard into them. For example, I don't think Zadina is always chasing the play. I think he had a tendency to be behind the play until fairly recently, but, I mean, we all knew he had to adjust to the pace of the North American pro game. Now that he's more comfortable, seems to me like he's chasing the play less.

Holding up Bertuzzi as the model for a not-physically-gifted-but-extremely-smart player strikes me as kind of weak sauce, as it took Bertuzzi a pretty long time to become the player he's become. (Dude was drafted all the way back in 2013.) Was Bertuzzi a 0.76 PPG NHLer at 20 years old? Was he even a *0.55* PPG NHLer at 20 years old? Were we raving about his hockey IQ when he was 20 years old?

Zadina has looked a lot better through the last 7-10 games. Credit where its due.

In fact, to rope in my Larkin bashing into this, I think he's shown more of a scoring touch than Larkin has, even despite Larkin's recent offensive uptick. If given Larkin's icetime he prolly outscores Larkin this year. Unfortunately for Zadina we need Larkin's defensive presence which Zadina doesn't bring.

With Bertuzzi there definitely is/was a different standard of expectations. Only like 40% of 2nd rounders are gonna move on to the NHL. Meanwhile a #6 pick has like a 90% chance of making the NHL. 2nd round players tend to become on average about 0.2 pt per game players (Dmen and goalies included in that number) and top10 picks tend to average 0.4 - 0.8 pts per game (D and G included) over their careers.

So there's a huge difference there. I'm not only expecting Zadina to easily make the NHL fairly quickly, I'm also reasonably expecting him to become top6 winger on the team, and I'm hoping a first line winger. Any butthurtness from me over Zadina is cause I personally don't see that 1st line potential I'm hoping to see. Bertuzzi on the other hand, if he doesn't make the team it sucks but whatever really. Lots of 2nd round players never workout. If he does make it and contributes in the bottom 6 yeah yayyyyyyy.

But my comparison to Bertuzzi was really only meant in terms of what they are as players right now, and not what my expectations are. But lets address it anyway.

Bertuzzi never got noticed for the great player he is today I think firstly because of his skill set. Bertuzzi isn't very naturally talented. His skating, his hands, his shot, etc etc is all pretty average and boring. He seems to make up for all of that with incredible IQ and having a big fearless personality. To detract a little, I care a lot more about personality these days than I ever did or thought I would. I think Bertuzzi and Seider are phenomenal examples of players who seem to dictate the game almost purely on sheer will and refusal to be intimidated. We need 300 players like this. But back to my point about IQ, I think the problem with IQ is it's incredibly hard to scout for for guys like you and me. Most of the time we are just casually watching the game, but I think to scout for IQ you really need to pick the player you want to learn about and focus only on them throughout the whole game. I do do this, but very rarely, and only with players I'm very excited about aka Zadina and Seider. So yeah maybe if I had done this with a 21/22 year old Bertuzzi I would have noticed something there? IDK I don't wanna say I'm that good, but maybe, who knows.

And I admit there's also quite a huge observers bias going on here. Because they are both under my microscope the tendency to nit pick or over exaggerate one positive or negative is definitely a thing. My evaluation of Zadina and Seider are also both based on my own personal taste. Seider is how I would design a Dman. Almost to a T. Zadina isn't necessarily exactly what I hoped for so far. So it's not hard to imagine why my duality of one being amazing and one sucks exists.

3 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Bertuzzi's not a loser at all IMO. In fact I would say he's an over-achiever. Probably the only one this team has. 

 

Don't get me wrong Bertuzzi is probably my favorite player on the team right now. I just have zero tolerance for losing. If Yzerman thinks he can make a deal that makes this team better and it involves Bertuzzi then F Bertuzzi honestly. Let heads roll.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No we don't have Pickard and Nagle in GR. Nagle is in Toledo where he belong. He's 32 years old and has played 99% of his pro career in the ECHL. He's awful.

Hmmm ur opinion of Nagle did a 180 pretty quickly...

On 12/18/2019 at 9:47 AM, krsmith17 said:

Pat Nagle is a more than capable AHL goaltender. He could back up Pickard for the rest of this season. Comrie hasn't been great, but not really any worse than Howard and Bernier. I'd rather keep the 24 year old over the 35 and 31 year olds... Hopefully he clears.

 

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin "sucks" but Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having "great" years? Bertuzzi has 5 more points than Larkin. Based on Fabbri's point pace, he would have 3 more points than Larkin with the same number of games played. Neither have the defensive responsibility that Larkin has. Larkin deserves the scrutiny, but no one really deserves much praise. Hence why so many felt we didn't deserve an All-Star selection this season.

Larkin has the expectation to be a PPG player or be close to one. Bertuzzi and Fabbri carried no where close to that level of expectation. We traded a 4th line PKer for Fabs for pete sake and Bertuzzi has never hit 50 pts in his career. Both Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having tremendous up years by their standards and deserve generous praise. The bar will be set a lot higher for both of them next year.

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So Larkin DID have a great season last year? Did you considered him a 1C last year? Of course you did. Because he was. One bad season doesn't change that. It just changes some irrational fans opinion that flip-flop at a moments notice.

Sorry that I have the honesty to be able to admit when a player is having a down year I guess?

You danced around my question though. Your excuse for Larkin is he has crappy wingers. I'm saying he doesn't. And he was able to score 73 pts and 32 goals last year with pretty much the same wingers, so what's his excuse for this year? Drugs? Partying? Not caring?

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

The only games Howard should be playing next season are in a beer league. Guy needs to retire. He'll be 36 years old, coming off his worst statistical season ever, and you think he should sign another NHL contract? I hope for Howard's sake, he hangs them up. I've been a big fan over his career, but another season could really sour a lot of fans.

Keep beating that drum. You anti-Howard bois always lose lol.

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No, if Zadina had a great year next year, I would expect you to come around on him, just like you did with Mantha. That's completely fair and rational. What isn't fair and rational is calling Zadina a "bust" at the age of 18/19, before ever giving him an opportunity to prove himself, or saying Mantha is "lazy" at the age of 21/22, or saying Larkin sucks because he's having a down season, just coming off a near point per game season. You can be hard on a player for having a bad season, or sceptical of a young player, but to say they suck, or they're a bust, is dumb in my opinion.

So when players are playing well we should praise them, but when they are playing bad we should remain silent?

f*** that gatekeeping honestly

Welcome to being the fan of a bad team. Everyones lazy and sucks and deserves to be traded right now. Even the guys I praise like the spaghet bros Bert and Fabs.

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Ok, Zadina doesn't have enough talent. Got it... Zadina is on a very similar trajectory and plays a similar style game as Filip Forsberg. If he becomes a similar player to him, I'm sure we'll all be very happy.

No doubt. Forsberg is a good player.

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hmmm ur opinion of Nagle did a 180 pretty quickly...

Honestly don't remember saying that... Must have been drunk lol... Either way, that was a dumb thing to say, just like you saying it now. Nagle sucks. Comrie would be a massive upgrade over him and Poulin.

26 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin has the expectation to be a PPG player or be close to one. Bertuzzi and Fabbri carried no where close to that level of expectation. We traded a 4th line PKer for Fabs for pete sake and Bertuzzi has never hit 50 pts in his career. Both Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having tremendous up years by their standards and deserve generous praise. The bar will be set a lot higher for both of them next year.

So expectations matter when evaluating a player, but age doesn't? What about draft position? St. Louis stupidly gave up on Fabbri. They traded him for basically nothing. He was still a high draft pick (selected 6 spots after Larkin). Bertuzzi is a year older than both. And STILL neither are having a significantly better season than Larkin. 

31 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Sorry that I have the honesty to be able to admit when a player is having a down year I guess?

Larkin is having a down year. I've said that several times. He deserves scrutiny, but saying he sucks is just dumb.

32 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You danced around my question though. Your excuse for Larkin is he has crappy wingers. I'm saying he doesn't. And he was able to score 73 pts and 32 goals last year with pretty much the same wingers, so what's his excuse for this year? Drugs? Partying? Not caring?

I'm not making excuses for Larkin. He hasn't been good enough. All I'm doing is explaining to you why he doesn't "suck"... This all started when people said Larkin isn't a 1C. He is. He was last season based on his offense, and he is this season based on his defense. 

35 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Keep beating that drum. You anti-Howard bois always lose lol.

I love Howard. Always have.

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So when players are playing well we should praise them, but when they are playing bad we should remain silent?

Who is saying this?

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Welcome to being the fan of a bad team. Everyones lazy and sucks and deserves to be traded right now. Even the guys I praise like the spaghet bros Bert and Fabs.

And this is the over the top negativity that is making me sick of this place, and the Red Wings internet world in general. Things are bad. Really bad. But there are still a lot of bright spots on this team and in the organization. For the most part, I like to focus on the positives. Whether you want to admit it or not, Larkin is one of those positive. So is Zadina. As well as Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Veleno, Rasmussen, Hronek and Seider. I like you a lot better when you talk about Bertuzzi and Seider...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Honestly don't remember saying that... Must have been drunk lol... Either way, that was a dumb thing to say, just like you saying it now. Nagle sucks. Comrie would be a massive upgrade over him and Poulin..

I mean you said it at 9:47 AM on a Wednesday...

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So expectations matter when evaluating a player, but age doesn't? What about draft position? St. Louis stupidly gave up on Fabbri. They traded him for basically nothing. He was still a high draft pick (selected 6 spots after Larkin). Bertuzzi is a year older than both. And STILL neither are having a significantly better season than Larkin.

You're strawmanning again

Expectations at the beginning of this year were much higher for Larkin than for Bertuzzi or Fabbri. If you can't grasp that we're not gonna make any forward progress here.

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I love Howard. Always have.

Yeah yeah, but you wanted to ditch him for Mrazek and now you wanna ditch him for an AHLer, sure.

It's all so tiresome.

15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Who is saying this?

You are. You're policing language.

I have no doubt if I wrote a gushing review about Zadina or Larkin or whomever you would smash that like button. But if I say any of them suck, it's all "Well CRL you really ought not be saying that"

But then if I said Howard sucks you'd be all for it lol. It's blatant hypocrisy.

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

And this is the over the top negativity that is making me sick of this place, and the Red Wings internet world in general. Things are bad. Really bad. But there are still a lot of bright spots on this team and in the organization. For the most part, I like to focus on the positives. Whether you want to admit it or not, Larkin is one of those positive. So is Zadina. As well as Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Veleno, Rasmussen, Hronek and Seider. I like you a lot better when you talk about Bertuzzi and Seider...

Well if I was trying to be liked I wouldn't be ChrisReeve'sLegs

I just don't know what everyone was expecting. So many people calling for the tank over the years, and now that we are in the s*** and it sucks and its awful you expect no complaints? I don't have much patience for a bad team. Sue me I guess.

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I mean you said it at 9:47 AM on a Wednesday...

2:17PM here, on Christmas holidays. I was out at my in-laws that day. Very possible...

23 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You're strawmanning again

Expectations at the beginning of this year were much higher for Larkin than for Bertuzzi or Fabbri. If you can't grasp that we're not gonna make any forward progress here.

Not strawmanning at all. You're the one that always goes on and on about how you don't care about age or experience, you just care about on ice product. So you don't care about age, but you do care about "expectations"? Why does that matter? Larkin is supposed to be one of our top players, and a lot of nights, he has been one of our best players. He may not get on the score sheet every night, but he has a positive impact in other areas.

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yeah yeah, but you wanted to ditch him for Mrazek and now you wanna ditch him for an AHLer, sure.

Dude he's 35 years old. He's regressed big time. It happens. 

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You are. You're policing language.

I have no doubt if I wrote a gushing review about Zadina or Larkin or whomever you would smash that like button. But if I say any of them suck, it's all "Well CRL you really ought not be saying that"

But then if I said Howard sucks you'd be all for it lol. It's blatant hypocrisy.

How is that "blatant hypocrisy"? I agree with those things, so obviously I would "like" it... Larkin doesn't "suck". Zadina doesn't "suck". If they have a bad game, or a bad stretch of games and you say that, it wouldn't bother me. What bothers me is people taking things to the extreme and saying a number one center "sucks", because of a down year. Again, it's dumb. If you had said Larkin needs to produce more, you wouldn't hear an argument from me, because I 100% agree with that. All the other bulls*** is what I disagree with.

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well if I was trying to be liked I wouldn't be ChrisReeve'sLegs

I just don't know what everyone was expecting. So many people calling for the tank over the years, and now that we are in the s*** and it sucks and its awful you expect no complaints? I don't have much patience for a bad team. Sue me I guess.

Where the f*** are you getting that I don't think you should complain about anything? You're being lazy man. I've never once said anything to indicate that I don't think you should complain about this team, or even Larkin, or Zadina. Put some rational thoughts together instead of the tired old "so and so sucks". It's dumb.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

2:17PM here, on Christmas holidays. I was out at my in-laws that day. Very possible...

Canadians get as early as the 18th off for Christmas? Not sure if I'm impressed or the opposite

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Not strawmanning at all. You're the one that always goes on and on about how you don't care about age or experience, you just care about on ice product. So you don't care about age, but you do care about "expectations"? Why does that matter? Larkin is supposed to be one of our top players, and a lot of nights, he has been one of our best players. He may not get on the score sheet every night, but he has a positive impact in other areas.

Changing the argument to age/experience is literally a strawman.

Why do expectations matter? You're joking right? If Bertuzzi suddenly only scores 20 pts next season he would have fell way short of what we expect of him production-wise. Pretty basic concept.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Dude he's 35 years old. He's regressed big time. It happens.

Yeah 35 year old players tend to slow down. You seem to have insider info that he's retiring shortly thou. Whose rear did you pull that one out of?

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

How is that "blatant hypocrisy"? I agree with those things, so obviously I would "like" it... Larkin doesn't "suck". Zadina doesn't "suck". If they have a bad game, or a bad stretch of games and you say that, it wouldn't bother me. What bothers me is people taking things to the extreme and saying a number one center "sucks", because of a down year. Again, it's dumb. If you had said Larkin needs to produce more, you wouldn't hear an argument from me, because I 100% agree with that. All the other bulls*** is what I disagree with.

Where the f*** are you getting that I don't think you should complain about anything? You're being lazy man. I've never once said anything to indicate that I don't think you should complain about this team, or even Larkin, or Zadina. Put some rational thoughts together instead of the tired old "so and so sucks". It's dumb.

We're only allowed to call players sucky if you approve apparently.

Howard and Ehn: YES
Anyone else: NO

Maybe, and here's a wild thought, I'll call whomever I want sucky

Edited January 13, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Canadians get as early as the 18th off for Christmas? Not sure if I'm impressed or the opposite

No, we don't "get it off". I took it off. I had some annual leave that I had to use before the new year, or I'd lose it, so I took two weeks off over Christmas.

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Changing the argument to age/experience is literally a strawman.

Oh, you mean the way you've changed the argument 5 times now, and do it every single time we dispute anything?

The original topic was is Larkin a 1C?

Then it evolved into is Larkin closer to a Bergeron level player or a J Staal level player?

Then, does Larkin suck?

Then, does Larkin deserve the brunt of the blame for the team sucking?

Then, something else.

Now, I'm not even sure. I've lost track...

I'll wrap things up really nice for you though. Yes, Larkin is a 1C, despite his struggles early this season. Larkin is a hell of a lot closer to an elite 1C, than a borderline 2C/3C. No, Larkin does not suck. Yes, Larkin deserves blame, but not all of it. Anything else?

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why do expectations matter? You're joking right? If Bertuzzi suddenly only scores 20 pts next season he would have fell way short of what we expect of him production-wise. Pretty basic concept.

I'm aware that expectations matter. But so do 50 other aspects of evaluating a player.

Again, be down on Larkin. I am too. I'm not dumb enough to think he sucks after a down season though.

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We're only allowed to call players sucky if you approve apparently.

Howard and Ehn: YES
Anyone else: NO

Maybe, and here's a wild thought, I'll call whomever I want sucky

Call whoever you want "sucky", but you'll be called out every time for saying a number one center "sucks"... Again, it's dumb.

And yes, Ehn, a borderline NHLer that if waived, not a single other team would claim, sucks. And yes, Howard, an aging vet, that has fallen off a cliff the past season, needs to retire. I'm not pretending to know whether he'll retire or not, but based on this season, he sure as hell should...

[mackel 681]

@ChristopherReevesLegs @krsmith17 thanks for the entertainment. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

No, we don't "get it off". I took it off. I had some annual leave that I had to use before the new year, or I'd lose it, so I took two weeks off over Christmas.

The point I was trying to make is that Canadians are lazy and they suck

Either way, I was drunk when I posted that Zadina stuff (doesn't count)

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Oh, you mean the way you've changed the argument 5 times now, and do it every single time we dispute anything?

The original topic was is Larkin a 1C?

Then it evolved into is Larkin closer to a Bergeron level player or a J Staal level player?

Then, does Larkin suck?

Then, does Larkin deserve the brunt of the blame for the team sucking?

Then, something else.

Now, I'm not even sure. I've lost track...

You're projecting hard right now. I don't even know what you're talking about with Bergeron and Staal.

Let me fill you in on the conversationyou're having: Larkin is a crappy 1/2C right now, which sucks, and yes he deserves blame for sucking this year. Look Mom I didn't lose track!

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I'll wrap things up really nice for you though. Yes, Larkin is a 1C, despite his struggles early this season. Larkin is a hell of a lot closer to an elite 1C, than a borderline 2C/3C. No, Larkin does not suck. Yes, Larkin deserves blame, but not all of it. Anything else?

Who called him a "borderline 2C/3C" lol?

Here's a sound bite: "Larkin is a crack riddled hobo". Save that one and use it against me later. It's a gimme.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm aware that expectations matter. But so do 50 other aspects of evaluating a player.

But we're talking about expectations, and by that standard he's having a bad year.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Call whoever you want "sucky", but you'll be called out every time for saying a number one center "sucks"... Again, it's dumb.

And yes, Ehn, a borderline NHLer that if waived, not a single other team would claim, sucks. And yes, Howard, an aging vet, that has fallen off a cliff the past season, needs to retire. I'm not pretending to know whether he'll retire or not, but based on this season, he sure as hell should...

Call Ehn and Howard "sucky", but you'll be called out every time for saying our goalie and PK guy "sucks"... Again, it's dumb.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

I've never really understood saying that bottom tier players "suck". There is a need for 3rd pair D, 4th liners, and even depth players. If a guy is capable of playing those roles, then why does he "suck"? Expendable, replaceable, unremarkable, all accurate descriptions. But saying that a capable, lower level player sucks, just isn't fair, IMO.

Does the guy who cleans the toilets at work suck because he works a menial job? If you made him an accountant, yeah, he'd probably suck at it. But if he's a capable janitor, does he really suck as an employee?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I've never really understood saying that bottom tier players "suck". There is a need for 3rd pair D, 4th liners, and even depth players. If a guy is capable of playing those roles, then why does he "suck"? Expendable, replaceable, unremarkable, all accurate descriptions. But saying that a capable, lower level player sucks, just isn't fair, IMO.

Does the guy who cleans the toilets at work suck because he works a menial job? If you made him an accountant, yeah, he'd probably suck at it. But if he's a capable janitor, does he really suck as an employee?

Precisely.

And when a department head performs badly, they dont get a pass because "well at least they're still better than the janitor."

Everyone has a role and the expectations that come with it. If we consider Larkin's role 1C, then yes he is failing right now.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

The point I was trying to make is that Canadians are lazy and they suck

Yeah, Canadians are really lazy... says the American...

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Either way, I was drunk when I posted that Zadina stuff (doesn't count)

I never said "it doesn't count". I wasn't using being drunk as an excuse for what I said. I was using being drunk as an excuse for not remember saying it... I fully admit it was mistake on my part. A mistake that you repeated...

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You're projecting hard right now. I don't even know what you're talking about with Bergeron and Staal.

Who called him a "borderline 2C/3C" lol?

The Bergeron / Staal argument is basically how this all started with myself and mackel. mackel said Larkin is basically Jordan Stall, who is a borderline 2C/3C... Catch up...

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

But we're talking about expectations, and by that standard he's having a bad year.

No, you're talking about expectations.

Literally no one is saying that Larkin isn't having a bad season.

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Call Ehn and Howard "sucky", but you'll be called out every time for saying our goalie and PK guy "sucks"... Again, it's dumb.

Yeah, saying that a borderline NHLer and a backup goaltender with a 4.10 GAA and an 0.880 SV% suck is really dumb... But saying that our number one center that is having a down season offensively makes all the sense...

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I've never really understood saying that bottom tier players "suck". There is a need for 3rd pair D, 4th liners, and even depth players. If a guy is capable of playing those roles, then why does he "suck"? Expendable, replaceable, unremarkable, all accurate descriptions. But saying that a capable, lower level player sucks, just isn't fair, IMO.

Does the guy who cleans the toilets at work suck because he works a menial job? If you made him an accountant, yeah, he'd probably suck at it. But if he's a capable janitor, does he really suck as an employee?

So you have a problem with people saying that expendable, replacement level, unremarkable players suck, but you don't have a problem with people (person) saying that our number one center sucks?

The Cory Emmerton's, Joakim Andersson's, Christoffer Ehn's of the world are really, really good hockey players. However, they're really, really bad NHL players. Like you said, they're replacement level. For that reason, two of them had short NHL careers. I'll bet the third won't last much longer. Relatively speaking, they suck.

Same goes for Nielsen and Howard. Both are great hockey players. They were both really good NHL players. However, both are way past their prime, and now are really bad NHL players. Relatively speaking, they suck now.

Larkin, on the other hand, is a great hockey player, and really, really good NHL player, just entering the prime of his career. He does not suck...

Edited January 13, 2020 by krsmith17

[Dabura 12,207]

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Zadina has looked a lot better through the last 7-10 games. Credit where its due.

In fact, to rope in my Larkin bashing into this, I think he's shown more of a scoring touch than Larkin has, even despite Larkin's recent offensive uptick. If given Larkin's icetime he prolly outscores Larkin this year. Unfortunately for Zadina we need Larkin's defensive presence which Zadina doesn't bring.

With Bertuzzi there definitely is/was a different standard of expectations. Only like 40% of 2nd rounders are gonna move on to the NHL. Meanwhile a #6 pick has like a 90% chance of making the NHL. 2nd round players tend to become on average about 0.2 pt per game players (Dmen and goalies included in that number) and top10 picks tend to average 0.4 - 0.8 pts per game (D and G included) over their careers.

So there's a huge difference there. I'm not only expecting Zadina to easily make the NHL fairly quickly, I'm also reasonably expecting him to become top6 winger on the team, and I'm hoping a first line winger. Any butthurtness from me over Zadina is cause I personally don't see that 1st line potential I'm hoping to see. Bertuzzi on the other hand, if he doesn't make the team it sucks but whatever really. Lots of 2nd round players never workout. If he does make it and contributes in the bottom 6 yeah yayyyyyyy.

But my comparison to Bertuzzi was really only meant in terms of what they are as players right now, and not what my expectations are. But lets address it anyway.

Bertuzzi never got noticed for the great player he is today I think firstly because of his skill set. Bertuzzi isn't very naturally talented. His skating, his hands, his shot, etc etc is all pretty average and boring. He seems to make up for all of that with incredible IQ and having a big fearless personality. To detract a little, I care a lot more about personality these days than I ever did or thought I would. I think Bertuzzi and Seider are phenomenal examples of players who seem to dictate the game almost purely on sheer will and refusal to be intimidated. We need 300 players like this. But back to my point about IQ, I think the problem with IQ is it's incredibly hard to scout for for guys like you and me. Most of the time we are just casually watching the game, but I think to scout for IQ you really need to pick the player you want to learn about and focus only on them throughout the whole game. I do do this, but very rarely, and only with players I'm very excited about aka Zadina and Seider. So yeah maybe if I had done this with a 21/22 year old Bertuzzi I would have noticed something there? IDK I don't wanna say I'm that good, but maybe, who knows.

And I admit there's also quite a huge observers bias going on here. Because they are both under my microscope the tendency to nit pick or over exaggerate one positive or negative is definitely a thing. My evaluation of Zadina and Seider are also both based on my own personal taste. Seider is how I would design a Dman. Almost to a T. Zadina isn't necessarily exactly what I hoped for so far. So it's not hard to imagine why my duality of one being amazing and one sucks exists.

Don't get me wrong Bertuzzi is probably my favorite player on the team right now. I just have zero tolerance for losing. If Yzerman thinks he can make a deal that makes this team better and it involves Bertuzzi then F Bertuzzi honestly. Let heads roll.

I appreciate the thoughtful response. Truly. We're prob'ly gonna continue to disagree on some points, but I respect that you're putting the work in and you're not just phoning it in.

There isn't much that truly bugs me about Zadina, but I'll freely admit that I really wish he had more explosiveness in his skating and I'm not sure how I didn't pick up on this when I watched him play in junior.

Something else that bugs me: At one point in the 2017-18 season, I was thinking Quinn Hughes was the #3 guy in the draft. I feel like I should've stuck to those guns. I mean, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but yeah.

Man, not placing in the top two in that draft was such a f***ing bummer. I loved Dahlin (still do) and I loved Svechnikov (still do). I guess that's why I'm ok with tanking this season. I mean, I'm *not* really ok with it, but I get it. Do we *need* a Lafreniere? Yes. Do we *need* a Byfield? Yes. Stutzle's doing well enough this season that he's starting to creep up on Byfield in that #2 spot for me.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, Canadians are really lazy... says the American...

Average labor hours worked as of 2016

Canada: 1703
USA: 1783

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1783 is higher than 1703, no? My math is no so good cause dumb American

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I never said "it doesn't count". I wasn't using being drunk as an excuse for what I said. I was using being drunk as an excuse for not remember saying it... I fully admit it was mistake on my part. A mistake that you repeated...

Pat Nagle in GR: 7 GP, 2.32 GAA, 0.914 sv%

Seems pretty decent to me. And less than a month ago you agreed with me... What changed?

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

The Bergeron / Staal argument is basically how this all started with myself and mackel. mackel said Larkin is basically Jordan Stall, who is a borderline 2C/3C... Catch up...

Remind me why it is my responsibility to keep up with conversations between you and Mackel again?

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Literally no one is saying that Larkin isn't having a bad season.

So we can confirm he sucks this season?

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, saying that a borderline NHLer and a backup goaltender with a 4.10 GAA and an 0.880 SV% suck is really dumb... But saying that our number one center that is having a down season offensively makes all the sense...

Howard is just having a down year. What? Goalies aren't allowed to have down years?

1C's score points. A lot more on average than Larkin is scoring. Guess he's more of a 2C in a 1C's role this season.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So you have a problem with people saying that expendable, replacement level, unremarkable players suck, but you don't have a problem with people (person) saying that our number one center sucks?

The Cory Emmerton's, Joakim Andersson's, Christoffer Ehn's of the world are really, really good hockey players. However, they're really, really bad NHL players. Like you said, they're replacement level. For that reason, two of them had short NHL careers. I'll bet the third won't last much longer. Relatively speaking, they suck.

Same goes for Nielsen and Howard. Both are great hockey players. They were both really good NHL players. However, both are way past their prime, and now are really bad NHL players. Relatively speaking, they suck now.

Larkin, on the other hand, is a great hockey player, and really, really good NHL player, just entering the prime of his career. He does not suck...

You really didn't get the analogy at all did you lol?

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

I appreciate the thoughtful response. Truly. We're prob'ly gonna continue to disagree on some points, but I respect that you're putting the work in and you're not just phoning it in.

There isn't much that truly bugs me about Zadina, but I'll freely admit that I really wish he had more explosiveness in his skating and I'm not sure how I didn't pick up on this when I watched him play in junior.

Something else that bugs me: At one point in the 2017-18 season, I was thinking Quinn Hughes was the #3 guy in the draft. I feel like I should've stuck to those guns. I mean, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but yeah.

Man, not placing in the top two in that draft was such a f***ing bummer. I loved Dahlin (still do) and I loved Svechnikov (still do). I guess that's why I'm ok with tanking this season. I mean, I'm *not* really ok with it, but I get it. Do we *need* a Lafreniere? Yes. Do we *need* a Byfield? Yes. Stutzle's doing well enough this season that he's starting to creep up on Byfield in that #2 spot for me.

What kinda sucks is that Zadina hasn't played all that much with Rasmussen yet and built that chemistry. After this TDL I see Rasmussen probably joining the team again, and I think we desperately need him to become a 2/3C ASAP. Let the Tuzzi/Larkin/Mantha line remain the same, and try to get a Fabbri/Ras/Zadina line going. I just want AA gone at this point. He still has RFA control and teams will pay for that.

If we can't fine help at center soon I fear Detroit is going to have to go hunting for one AGAIN in UFA. After Weiss/Nielsen/Fil I'm super gun shy about that at this point.

I definitely think the best thing for Zadina is to play on the top line with Larkin and Bertuzzi right now though. I don't often agree with sticking a rookie who hasn't exactly earned it there and probably isn't ready for it. But the way he plays I think it's prolly best for him. It's tough those cause he's getting sheltered minutes right now and playing with Larkin and Bertuzzi means a huge defensive responsibility that I don't think he's ready for. It's all a s***ty paradox really.