2020 Offseason

[marcaractac 3,960]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yup. Trade Larkin. Trade Mantha. We could use that extra $13M in cap space...

Do you not understand memes?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

40 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Not only to I not want to keep tanking, I want to speed things up.  That's why I've I want Stutzle or Rossi this year.  They're both going to be top line centers, and they're both going to fast track to the NHL. I liked that Seider could jump straight to the AHL last year.  I want more of that. 

Fastest way to the top is to keep digging down till we pop out on the other side. Limping this average core around is a recipe for 40+ years of deadwings. Draft Lafreniere, but trade Mantha too. Keep drafting high after Lafrenire.

BUT WHO WILL LAFRENIERE PLAY WITH?

Veleno, Rasmussen, Berggren, etc etc. We don't need to win now, so we don't need players like Mantha now.

24 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We'll be adding elite players.

We hope

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Assuming that trading away our best young players is going to somehow improve our team, is dumb... That rarely ever works...

Edmonton tanked hard for years. Where did that get them? Sure, they finally got a Draisaitl and McDavid, but they still haven't done anything notable (I do think they eventually will).

You answered your own question lol. Edmonton is much better team than us with much better building blocks precisely bc they tanked. They built a failed core of Hall/Eberle etc sure, and they also smartly traded them off when they realized these players were good, but not good enough.

Mantha's your Hall, Larkin's your 1978 Dale McCourt.

32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Edmonton also traded away high-end young players (Hall / Eberle), and have what to show for it?

McDavid and Draisitl lol

They exact type of players I'm advocating for.

[krsmith17 7,191]

15 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Do you not understand memes?

Yes, I understood... I was adding to your meme... Maybe I should have said:

YuP. tRaDe LaRkIn. tRaDe MaNtHa. wE cOuLd UsE tHaT eXtRa $13M iN cAp SpAcE...

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We hope

We will.

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You answered your own question lol. Edmonton is much better team than us with much better building blocks precisely bc they tanked. They built a failed core of Hall/Eberle etc sure, and they also smartly traded them off when they realized these players were good, but not good enough.

Mantha's your Hall, Larkin's your 1978 Dale McCourt.

McDavid and Draisitl lol

They exact type of players I'm advocating for.

Probably because they've been rebuilding forever, compared to our what? Three years? Of course they're in a better spot. What happens in two years time, if we end up with Lafreniere and a top 5 pick in 2021? We're likely once again, ahead of or close to where Edmonton are now.

Do you even know what the Oilers got for Hall and Eberle? They were awful trades. Imagine that current team, with veterans like Hall and Eberle... 

[marcaractac 3,960]

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, I understood... I was adding to your meme... Maybe I should have said:

YuP. tRaDe LaRkIn. tRaDe MaNtHa. wE cOuLd UsE tHaT eXtRa $13M iN cAp SpAcE...

that's better haha. ******* text

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We will.

Probably because they've been rebuilding forever, compared to our what? Three years? Of course they're in a better spot. What happens in two years time, if we end up with Lafreniere and a top 5 pick in 2021? We're likely once again, ahead of or close to where Edmonton are now.

Do you even know what the Oilers got for Hall and Eberle? They were awful trades. Imagine that current team, with veterans like Hall and Eberle... 

Cap wouldn't allow that, but imagine their current team if they got legit returns for those guys. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We will.

Type it enough times and it'll definitely come true

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Probably because they've been rebuilding forever, compared to our what? Three years? Of course they're in a better spot. What happens in two years time, if we end up with Lafreniere and a top 5 pick in 2021? We're likely once again, ahead of or close to where Edmonton are now.

"If everything works out perfectly we'll be fine"

Things aren't perfect. I've listened to Wings fans say "oh but next year we'll be looking a lot better" for like 10+ years now. Yeah yeah but THIS TIME we'll definitely be in the playoffs again soon. This time it's different than all those other times.

Right.

This is gonna take a whole lot longer than any of you imagine. Especially if we're gonna limp this average core around like it's the 1970s.

12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Do you even know what the Oilers got for Hall and Eberle? They were awful trades. Imagine that current team, with veterans like Hall and Eberle... 

What does there return on Hall and Eberle have to do with anything other than just general Oilers bashing? I'm not advocating for trading anyone for peanuts.

[krsmith17 7,191]

17 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Type it enough times and it'll definitely come true

We WILL be getting an elite talent in this year's draft. That's all but guaranteed.

19 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

"If everything works out perfectly we'll be fine"

Things aren't perfect. I've listened to Wings fans say "oh but next year we'll be looking a lot better" for like 10+ years now. Yeah yeah but THIS TIME we'll definitely be in the playoffs again soon. This time it's different than all those other times.

Right.

This is gonna take a whole lot longer than any of you imagine. Especially if we're gonna limp this average core around like it's the 1970s.

Everything doesn't need to work out perfectly, but with the way we're set up right now, we have the second best odds (if you include two of the Sens picks) at Lafreniere, but we'll be getting an elite player in the top four regardless. We have a lot of good, young talent. Most of which haven't come close to reaching their full potential yet. So yes, we will improve. That's inevitable with the season we just had. 

22 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What does there return on Hall and Eberle have to do with anything other than just general Oilers bashing? I'm not advocating for trading anyone for peanuts.

What does your ideal trades look like with Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, whoever else you want to trade off?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We WILL be getting an elite talent in this year's draft. That's all but guaranteed.

Everything doesn't need to work out perfectly, but with the way we're set up right now, we have the second best odds (if you include two of the Sens picks) at Lafreniere, but we'll be getting an elite player in the top four regardless. We have a lot of good, young talent. Most of which haven't come close to reaching their full potential yet. So yes, we will improve. That's inevitable with the season we just had.

It's certainly not guaranteed. Is it likely that we will at least be getting a good player? Yes. Is it likely we will be getting a superstar? A lot less so.

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What does your ideal trades look like with Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, whoever else you want to trade off?

Text message to all 30 other GMs: "Everyone besides Seider is available"

Then wait.

Only pulling the trigger on a great return, whether that comes in 5 day, 5 months, or 5 years.

Superstars <-- what we need
Good players <-- expendable
Average players <-- expendable
Bad players <-- expendable

Larkin is the only where I think you prolly need a roster C coming back the other way, only because this team is completely trash garbage at center

Edited April 7, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It's certainly not guaranteed. Is it likely that we will at least be getting a good player? Yes. Is it likely we will be getting a superstar? A lot less so.

Text message to all 30 other GMs: "Everyone besides Seider is available"

Then wait.

Only pulling the trigger on a great return, whether that comes in 5 day, 5 months, or 5 years.

Superstars <-- what we need
Good players <-- expendable
Average players <-- expendable
Bad players <-- expendable

Larkin is the only where I think you prolly need a roster C coming back the other way, only because this team is completely trash garbage at center

Blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone in the entire organization sucks, except my boy Seider, blah, blah, blah...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone in the entire organization sucks, except my boy Seider, blah, blah, blah...

Thank you again for the substance.

The moment Seider starts looking like Tyler Myers 2.0 I trade him too.

There's absolutely zero sense in hanging on to non-superstar players in our position because they might maybe one day could maybe help us in the playoffs 5 years from now. The only reason you hang onto them is because no ones offering a good return yet. But when they do... buh bye.

We have no need for 1980 Dale McCourt. We have need for 1988 Yzerman. And there's only one way to get those in the modern age... make some withdrawals from the tank bank. And it probably means more than a few withdrawals.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

30 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Thank you again for the substance.

The moment Seider starts looking like Tyler Myers 2.0 I trade him too.

There's absolutely zero sense in hanging on to non-superstar players in our position because they might maybe one day could maybe help us in the playoffs 5 years from now. The only reason you hang onto them is because no ones offering a good return yet. But when they do... buh bye.

We have no need for 1980 Dale McCourt. We have need for 1988 Yzerman. And there's only one way to get those in the modern age... make some withdrawals from the tank bank. And it probably means more than a few withdrawals.

Everyone has given you more substance than this topic deserves...

But I'll ask again, what does your ideal trade(s) look like? You want to trade Larkin? For who? You're not getting a better player than Larkin in a trade. Trade him for picks? You're back to "hoping" that those picks turn into better players than the player you're trading. Not likely. 

You're saying we're not guaranteed superstar calibre players with a top 4 pick, in an extremely top heavy draft, but you think whatever we trade for our best player, will somehow be better...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Everyone has given you more substance than this topic deserves...

But I'll ask again, what does your ideal trade(s) look like? You want to trade Larkin? For who? You're not getting a better player than Larkin in a trade. Trade him for picks? You're back to "hoping" that those picks turn into better players than the player you're trading. Not likely.

I don't have an ideal trade in mind. It would likely be a haul of a bunch of different moving parts. For Larkin - if it happened tomorrow - I'd expect a roster center coming back to cover our positional needs among picks and prospects.

Look at the ROR trade. He got in return from the Blues two roster centers, a prospect (drafted in the 1st), a 1st round pick, and a 2nd round pick. That's a decent reference point to start from.

55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You're saying we're not guaranteed superstar calibre players with a top 4 pick, in an extremely top heavy draft, but you think whatever we trade for our best player, will somehow be better...

Fill me in on why those two things are mutually exclusive? We're not guaranteed a superstar anywhere in the draft. That's a fact. And that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the return we may or may not get for Larkin.

Selling a Larkin/Mantha/Whomever accomplishes two things: obtaining assets and tanking. Surely I don't have to explain the concept and benefits of tanking to you.

Would love to ship a young Lafreniere in, and an established Mantha out, to keep us picking high and keep us picking a lot.

Go for critical mass

Edited April 7, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[mackel 674]

5 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

How r u still single?

Except Ottawa is in the same boat and wouldn't trade those picks for exactly the same reason.

I'm not so sure... first Lafreniere would help them draw french fans from Gatineau... and secondly they have a much better high end player/prospect pool than we do. 

[mackel 674]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone in the entire organization sucks, except my boy Seider, blah, blah, blah...

Replace Seider with Zadina and that could be mistaken for an @krsmith17 quote

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I don't have an ideal trade in mind. It would likely be a haul of a bunch of different moving parts. For Larkin - if it happened tomorrow - I'd expect a roster center coming back to cover our positional needs among picks and prospects.

Look at the ROR trade. He got in return from the Blues two roster centers, a prospect (drafted in the 1st), a 1st round pick, and a 2nd round pick. That's a decent reference point to start from.

Fill me in on why those two things are mutually exclusive? We're not guaranteed a superstar anywhere in the draft. That's a fact. And that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the return we may or may not get for Larkin.

Selling a Larkin/Mantha/Whomever accomplishes two things: obtaining assets and tanking. Surely I don't have to explain the concept and benefits of tanking to you.

Would love to ship a young Lafreniere in, and an established Mantha out, to keep us picking high and keep us picking a lot.

Go for critical mass

The problem with your plan is that the teams who want a Larkin, Mantha, etc and are willing to trade a package including 1st rounders are teams that will very likely be picking in the back half of the 1st round where you have a less than 50/50 shot at getting a player of the caliber you traded and even if you did it would take 4+ years to materialize.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

29 minutes ago, mackel said:

The problem with your plan is that the teams who want a Larkin, Mantha, etc and are willing to trade a package including 1st rounders are teams that will very likely be picking in the back half of the 1st round where you have a less than 50/50 shot at getting a player of the caliber you traded and even if you did it would take 4+ years to materialize.

Definitely, I'm expecting 1sts coming back to be late. Trading core players is about getting those picks + siphoning off talent to keep our own 1st rounder high. Going back to picking 6th again anytime soon would suck big balls.

Tell me which looks better for a rebuild:

 

2021:

6th overall + Larkin

or

1-4 overall + (2) late firsts + roster players

 

2022:

6th overall + Mantha

or

1-4 overall + (2) late firsts + roster players

 

In just two short years you can stock the farm with (2) top4 picks + (4) late first rounders. Or we can keep Larkin and Mantha (hooray)  and get two picks outside the top5.

Edited April 7, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

Replace Seider with Zadina and that could be mistaken for an @krsmith17 quote

This makes no sense... Please explain...

Nothing CRL is saying makes any sense...

[Dabura 12,206]

13 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Core by default is a good term. That's what it feels like.

I don't wanna build around an average core. I wanna wallow in the mud and the filth and feel all that good heavy soul crushing hurt until we draft a dynastic core.

I feel like I'm the guy in the bar who gets a call from his girl 6 drinks in. "OMG CRL R U AT THE BAR DRINKING AGAIN???". And you guys are all like "You should probably go home dude, sober up and work on your relationship. Amy's a nice girl"

My attitude is f*** Amy. She already caught me, I'm already in trouble, may as well have a few more rounds at this point and close the bar. I can get a new better Amy next weekend anyway if she decides to pack her bags.

Thats my bad analogy for: f*** it dude, we're already in the NHLs basement. May as well stick around and stack some quality players while we're here. If Mantha ends up running out on us while we're down here then f*** him too, we're getting better Mantha's in the next draft.

No doubt it's a fatalistic outlook, but it's also the quickest path to a dynasty in my book.

My worst fear is Mantha is Franzen 2.0. Larkin is Toews 2.0. Seider is Kronwall 2.0. Zadina is Oshie 2.0... and we sneak into the playoffs in 4 years with this completely average team and never accomplish anything to show for it. Like 2011-2016 all over again.

So far we've come out of these doldrums with two 6th overall picks. This year we will get something in 1-4. Frankly, even if we get Lafreniere, I don't think two 6ths and one 1st is a good enough haul for the pain we've already endured. Ideally I think we should be trying to come out of this trough with multiple top4 picks and supplementary 1st rounders as well.

Say Yzerman gets the wheels on the bus going next year and we're picking 6-10 again. The year after we're in the 6-10 range and so on, leading up to a 4th year playoff appearance. I don't think adding one Lafreniere is the way to do this. Exploit the tragedy and get multiple of these guys is what I say.

This gives me a better sense of where you're coming from. Legit thanks for elaborating. (I haven't been lurking much lately, so I'm not sure where people are at right now re: the rebuild.) You're in the "Nuke the site from orbit" camp. Your fear is that we fall into a late-stage Hollandism cycle of Respectable Mediocrity™. I can, erm, respect that. I'm not feeling it tho.

Yzerman's not attached to our players the way Holland was, so I don't think we have to worry about him riding a mediocre core for way too long "because homegrown guys" or whatever. Again, Yzerman's been pretty clear and consistent with his prognosis: Our young core is flat-out not going to be enough, so we need to add. I truly don't see why this has to be a 10-year thing. I'm all for Yzerman trying outside-the-box stuff in an effort to speed up the timeline, but I don't think it's a "Burn it to the ground or we're stuck in hell for 10 years" situation.

What we have right now isn't anything to write home about, admittedly. Maybe Larkin is better suited for the 2C role. Maybe Veleno is looking like a 3C. But even if these things are true, we know that at least one of Byfield, Stutzle, Rossi, Drysdale, Raymond is going to be available when we make our first pick in the upcoming draft (assuming we don't get 1st). These are "elite, elite" prospects. Better than your average consolation prize pool, as this draft class has lived up to the "unusually deep" HYPE! Adding Lafreniere or any one of these players will be an enormous win for the rebuild effort.

I know I say something to that effect every year, but, I mean, have y'all seen Marco Rossi play hockey?! Dude SCREAMS "Yzerman guy." Dude SCREAMS "Brayden Point (but better)." And some people are thinking he might not even go in the top five. Point being, again: We are getting an insanely good prospect, very likely the best we've had in eons. Adding Byfield is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Adding Stutzle is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Adding Rossi is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Etc.

All of a sudden, with one player added, entire discussions become outdated. If we're adding, say, Stutzle, and we think he's a centerman, the "Can Larkin and Veleno cut it as our go-to centermen?" conversation is basically no longer a thing. If we're getting Stutzle and he's a winger, we're about as set as you can be on the wings without adding any big names via trade or free agency. All of this is also true for Byfield and Rossi.

We're probably headed for another prime lotto pick next year. And Yzerman's going to have cap flexibility -- with a pretty interesting 2021 UFA class. And we know Yzerman isn't afraid to make trades. So...I don't wanna be That Guy, but...it's not a total blue-sky pipe dream to think things could get better in a hurry if a few things go right.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I don't have an ideal trade in mind. It would likely be a haul of a bunch of different moving parts. For Larkin - if it happened tomorrow - I'd expect a roster center coming back to cover our positional needs among picks and prospects.

Look at the ROR trade. He got in return from the Blues two roster centers, a prospect (drafted in the 1st), a 1st round pick, and a 2nd round pick. That's a decent reference point to start from.

Fill me in on why those two things are mutually exclusive? We're not guaranteed a superstar anywhere in the draft. That's a fact. And that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the return we may or may not get for Larkin.

Selling a Larkin/Mantha/Whomever accomplishes two things: obtaining assets and tanking. Surely I don't have to explain the concept and benefits of tanking to you.

Would love to ship a young Lafreniere in, and an established Mantha out, to keep us picking high and keep us picking a lot.

Go for critical mass

Here's the problem. Buffalo's return for ROR was Patrik Berglund (32) and Vlad Sobotka (31); both of whom are aging middle 6 to bottom 6 forwards, a former 2016 1st round pick (Tage Thompson) who still hasn't cracked the NHL, a 2019 1st round pick (31st overall which is basically a 2nd rounder) in Ryan Johnson, who will doubtfully ever be as good as ROR, and a 2021 2nd round pick (see previous).

Who do you honestly think won that trade? Hint: It wasn't the rebuilding team who traded away their younger, less than elite, but very good center. Do you think Buffalo might be regretting that trade? I do. And I don't want to be another Buffalo.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

This makes no sense... Please explain...

Nothing CRL is saying makes any sense...

Apparently there are only 2 choices on Zadina. Either you think he's an absolute bust or the next Pavel Bure. Mackel is the former. Apparently you are the latter.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Fastest way to the top is to keep digging down till we pop out on the other side. Limping this average core around is a recipe for 40+ years of deadwings. Draft Lafreniere, but trade Mantha too. Keep drafting high after Lafrenire.

BUT WHO WILL LAFRENIERE PLAY WITH?

Veleno, Rasmussen, Berggren, etc etc. We don't need to win now, so we don't need players like Mantha now.

We hope

You answered your own question lol. Edmonton is much better team than us with much better building blocks precisely bc they tanked. They built a failed core of Hall/Eberle etc sure, and they also smartly traded them off when they realized these players were good, but not good enough.

Mantha's your Hall, Larkin's your 1978 Dale McCourt.

McDavid and Draisitl lol

They exact type of players I'm advocating for.

McDavid was drafted 1st overall. Draisaitl was drafted 3rd overall. You aren't getting a 1st or 3rd overall for any of Mantha, Larkin, or Zadina. That's the problem.

 

3 hours ago, mackel said:

Replace Seider with Zadina and that could be mistaken for an @krsmith17 quote

The problem with your plan is that the teams who want a Larkin, Mantha, etc and are willing to trade a package including 1st rounders are teams that will very likely be picking in the back half of the 1st round where you have a less than 50/50 shot at getting a player of the caliber you traded and even if you did it would take 4+ years to materialize.

I agree with you. Feeling a bit nauseous now.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 hours ago, Dabura said:

This gives me a better sense of where you're coming from. Legit thanks for elaborating. (I haven't been lurking much lately, so I'm not sure where people are at right now re: the rebuild.) You're in the "Nuke the site from orbit" camp. Your fear is that we fall into a late-stage Hollandism cycle of Respectable Mediocrity™. I can, erm, respect that. I'm not feeling it tho.

Yzerman's not attached to our players the way Holland was, so I don't think we have to worry about him riding a mediocre core for way too long "because homegrown guys" or whatever. Again, Yzerman's been pretty clear and consistent with his prognosis: Our young core is flat-out not going to be enough, so we need to add. I truly don't see why this has to be a 10-year thing. I'm all for Yzerman trying outside-the-box stuff in an effort to speed up the timeline, but I don't think it's a "Burn it to the ground or we're stuck in hell for 10 years" situation.

What we have right now isn't anything to write home about, admittedly. Maybe Larkin is better suited for the 2C role. Maybe Veleno is looking like a 3C. But even if these things are true, we know that at least one of Byfield, Stutzle, Rossi, Drysdale, Raymond is going to be available when we make our first pick in the upcoming draft (assuming we don't get 1st). These are "elite, elite" prospects. Better than your average consolation prize pool, as this draft class has lived up to the "unusually deep" HYPE! Adding Lafreniere or any one of these players will be an enormous win for the rebuild effort.

I know I say something to that effect every year, but, I mean, have y'all seen Marco Rossi play hockey?! Dude SCREAMS "Yzerman guy." Dude SCREAMS "Brayden Point (but better)." And some people are thinking he might not even go in the top five. Point being, again: We are getting an insanely good prospect, very likely the best we've had in eons. Adding Byfield is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Adding Stutzle is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Adding Rossi is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Etc.

All of a sudden, with one player added, entire discussions become outdated. If we're adding, say, Stutzle, and we think he's a centerman, the "Can Larkin and Veleno cut it as our go-to centermen?" conversation is basically no longer a thing. If we're getting Stutzle and he's a winger, we're about as set as you can be on the wings without adding any big names via trade or free agency. All of this is also true for Byfield and Rossi.

We're probably headed for another prime lotto pick next year. And Yzerman's going to have cap flexibility -- with a pretty interesting 2021 UFA class. And we know Yzerman isn't afraid to make trades. So...I don't wanna be That Guy, but...it's not a total blue-sky pipe dream to think things could get better in a hurry if a few things go right.

Again, 100% agree. 

I know you're not saying that Larkin isn't a 1C, but I think he absolutely is. I don't see Larkin giving up that 1C role any time soon. We may need an upgrade at 2C, depending on how Veleno / Rasmussen pan out, but I also think we're solid there as well, with one of those two. If we end up falling back in the draft (most probable), and take Stutzel, I think we'll see Larkin - Stutzel - Veleno as our center depth going forward, and while none are McDavid or Matthews calibre, I think one (Larkin) or two (Stutzel) of them could be Toews / O'Rielly calibre. The former have a combined 0 Cups (albeit a lot younger). The latter have a combined 4 Cups as 1C's... Give Larkin a Kane or Tarasenko calibre winger, and he'll once again be considered a legit 1C...

10 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Here's the problem. Buffalo's return for ROR was Patrik Berglund (32) and Vlad Sobotka (31); both of whom are aging middle 6 to bottom 6 forwards, a former 2016 1st round pick (Tage Thompson) who still hasn't cracked the NHL, a 2019 1st round pick (31st overall which is basically a 2nd rounder) in Ryan Johnson, who will doubtfully ever be as good as ROR, and a 2021 2nd round pick (see previous).

Who do you honestly think won that trade? Hint: It wasn't the rebuilding team who traded away their younger, less than elite, but very good center. Do you think Buffalo might be regretting that trade? I do. And I don't want to be another Buffalo.

This.

10 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Apparently there are only 2 choices on Zadina. Either you think he's an absolute bust or the next Pavel Bure. Mackel is the former. Apparently you are the latter.

Apparently...

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

McDavid was drafted 1st overall. Draisaitl was drafted 3rd overall. You aren't getting a 1st or 3rd overall for any of Mantha, Larkin, or Zadina. That's the problem.

There's a reality where we could get a 1st and 3rd overall in the next two drafts. If we do, we should be set. That's best case scenario.

If we don't, and we end up falling to 4th this year, and 7th next year, and whoever we draft ends up being average top six forwards / top four defensemen, we could be in trouble. That's worst case scenario.

But THAT'S when you tear it down. Not now...

EDIT: I responded to you Neo, but I'm sure you know this is directed at CRL and whoever else is in the burn it down camp. Not you...

Edited April 8, 2020 by krsmith17

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

This makes no sense... Please explain...

Nothing CRL is saying makes any sense...

Kindly return to the kids table then while the adults talk

14 hours ago, Dabura said:

Yzerman's not attached to our players the way Holland was, so I don't think we have to worry about him riding a mediocre core for way too long "because homegrown guys" or whatever. Again, Yzerman's been pretty clear and consistent with his prognosis: Our young core is flat-out not going to be enough, so we need to add. I truly don't see why this has to be a 10-year thing. I'm all for Yzerman trying outside-the-box stuff in an effort to speed up the timeline, but I don't think it's a "Burn it to the ground or we're stuck in hell for 10 years" situation.

Precisely why I think trading a Mantha or a Larkin or some other core piece is completely within the realm of possibility for us.

This was Yzerman's "wait n observe year" and he was still flippin' DLRs and Regulas every which way. I can only imagine what Stephen will do when this clown team comes out flat again next year in a non-"observation" season. I don't think he'll have any reservations about dumping or flipping some of these "core by default" players to get to where he wants to be.

For the record my mantra has been 5-10 years. I think 5 is your min if everything goes swimmingly and as planned. I think 10 because things rarely go as planned (or swimmingly lately).

14 hours ago, Dabura said:

What we have right now isn't anything to write home about, admittedly. Maybe Larkin is better suited for the 2C role. Maybe Veleno is looking like a 3C. But even if these things are true, we know that at least one of Byfield, Stutzle, Rossi, Drysdale, Raymond is going to be available when we make our first pick in the upcoming draft (assuming we don't get 1st). These are "elite, elite" prospects. Better than your average consolation prize pool, as this draft class has lived up to the "unusually deep" HYPE! Adding Lafreniere or any one of these players will be an enormous win for the rebuild effort.

I know I say something to that effect every year, but, I mean, have y'all seen Marco Rossi play hockey?! Dude SCREAMS "Yzerman guy." Dude SCREAMS "Brayden Point (but better)." And some people are thinking he might not even go in the top five. Point being, again: We are getting an insanely good prospect, very likely the best we've had in eons. Adding Byfield is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Adding Stutzle is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Adding Rossi is a quantum leap forward for the rebuild (even if he settles in as a winger). Etc.

On this I'm in the camp of we'll see. And that's my stance on Seider too. Love Seider personally and think he will be great, but I can't call him our definite future #1 until he starts showing at the very least flashes of it at the NHL level. Same with these prospects. For all we know Stutzle is the next Nolan Patrick. That said I do trust Yzerman's drafting after he picked Seider, just can't officially count this years pick until we see it. If it's Lafreniere I'll just give it to ya...

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Here's the problem. Buffalo's return for ROR was Patrik Berglund (32) and Vlad Sobotka (31); both of whom are aging middle 6 to bottom 6 forwards, a former 2016 1st round pick (Tage Thompson) who still hasn't cracked the NHL, a 2019 1st round pick (31st overall which is basically a 2nd rounder) in Ryan Johnson, who will doubtfully ever be as good as ROR, and a 2021 2nd round pick (see previous).

Who do you honestly think won that trade? Hint: It wasn't the rebuilding team who traded away their younger, less than elite, but very good center. Do you think Buffalo might be regretting that trade? I do. And I don't want to be another Buffalo.

You're looking back in full hindsight. The trade happened 2 seasons ago and the Sabres knew a lot less about Tage Thompson then than they do now, and couldn't have predicted STL would win the cup the same year they had STL's first. But that's whatever, it's a risk you take.

Tage Thompson is 22 and has 107 NHL games under his belt already btw. You all would be speaking highly of him if he was a Red Wing prospect.

I dunno anything about Ryan Johnson, but he'll be 28 when ROR is 39. That's the temporal aspect to all this that everyone loves to ignore. Trading a player like ROR isn't about replacing ROR (other than with fill ins like Sobotka and Berglund) it's about looking in the mirror soberly, admitting to yourself that you're not gonna get it done in this window with this player around, so you cut your losses and trade him in for future assets. Acquire enough future assets and hopefully you will reach a critical mass down the road.

Tage Thompson and Ryan Johnson =/= ROR = a false equivalency

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Apparently there are only 2 choices on Zadina. Either you think he's an absolute bust or the next Pavel Bure. Mackel is the former. Apparently you are the latter.

I mean call me annoyed at this point, but I've typed out pages about my thoughts on Zadina on like 300 separate occasions now, and you Zagina lickers still misrepresent and strawman mine and Mackel's position. I've said from November 2018 till today pretty consistently he is Hudler/Tatar/Nyquist. A good player but not a game-changer. Not the building block this team needed out of a 6th overall pick.

#bust

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

McDavid was drafted 1st overall. Draisaitl was drafted 3rd overall. You aren't getting a 1st or 3rd overall for any of Mantha, Larkin, or Zadina. That's the problem.

I've already addressed this in this thread. Wanting superstars and obtaining late-1sts are not mutually exclusive concepts. And it's honestly laughable that you would try to assert it as such. Everyone and their brother knows the best way to obtain superstars is to tank. Trading core players allows one to stay in the bottom rungs and boost the height of ones own pick. Having extra firsts is just a significant bonus to that and another dice roll. This is lvl 1 tank stuff my dood.

 

[Dabura 12,206]

9 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, 100% agree. 

I know you're not saying that Larkin isn't a 1C, but I think he absolutely is. I don't see Larkin giving up that 1C role any time soon. We may need an upgrade at 2C, depending on how Veleno / Rasmussen pan out, but I also think we're solid there as well, with one of those two. If we end up falling back in the draft (most probable), and take Stutzel, I think we'll see Larkin - Stutzel - Veleno as our center depth going forward, and while none are McDavid or Matthews calibre, I think one (Larkin) or two (Stutzel) of them could be Toews / O'Rielly calibre. The former have a combined 0 Cups (albeit a lot younger). The latter have a combined 4 Cups as 1C's... Give Larkin a Kane or Tarasenko calibre winger, and he'll once again be considered a legit 1C...

Right. We're on the same page. Point is, basically, we'd be getting a guy who's likely going to be as good as Larkin if not better. I'd be perfectly fine with an O'Reilly-Schenn scheme where you could call either player the 1C depending on how you personally define things.

Do I want a McDavid? Absolutely. Would I settle for O'Reilly-Schenn? Absolutely. Do I think we have an O'Reilly-esque centerman and are now in a position to draft a Schenn-esque centerman (in addition to having Veleno and Rasmussen in the system)? Absolutely. And I'm pretty pumped about it.

[Dabura 12,206]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Precisely why I think trading a Mantha or a Larkin or some other core piece is completely within the realm of possibility for us.

This was Yzerman's "wait n observe year" and he was still flippin' DLRs and Regulas every which way. I can only imagine what Stephen will do when this clown team comes out flat again next year in a non-"observation" season. I don't think he'll have any reservations about dumping or flipping some of these "core by default" players to get to where he wants to be.

I mean, anything's possible. But I don't think he's going to trade one of our best young players unless there's a real problem and/or he 100% believes he's 100% winning the trade(s).

Seems like AA was a source of friction. So Yzerman dumped him. I can't see that happening with any of Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Hronek. At least, not any time soon. We need players who can hold their own in demanding roles on a bad team and all these guys can do that.

They're not going to win a ton of games, but they're young and serviceable, and that's really all we need right now as we lick our wounds and bide our time. If we get a player who's good enough that he has a rising-tide-that-lifts-all-boats effect on the roster, we could end up being very happy that Yzerman stuck with these guys.

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

On this I'm in the camp of we'll see. And that's my stance on Seider too. Love Seider personally and think he will be great, but I can't call him our definite future #1 until he starts showing at the very least flashes of it at the NHL level. Same with these prospects. For all we know Stutzle is the next Nolan Patrick. That said I do trust Yzerman's drafting after he picked Seider, just can't officially count this years pick until we see it. If it's Lafreniere I'll just give it to ya...

Totally fair. "Hope for the best, expect the worst." I get it.

Personally, I'm choosing to embrace the (possibly misguided) HYPE! Why? Because it's all I have left right now as a Wings fan. lol. Everything sucks; I need something to believe in. We all do.

It helps that I'm really freaking high on a bunch of this year's top draft-eligibles. More so than usual.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

35 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Right. We're on the same page. Point is, basically, we'd be getting a guy who's likely going to be as good as Larkin if not better. I'd be perfectly fine with an O'Reilly-Schenn scheme where you could call either player the 1C depending on how you personally define things.

Do I want a McDavid? Absolutely. Would I settle for O'Reilly-Schenn? Absolutely. Do I think we have an O'Reilly-esque centerman and are now in a position to draft a Schenn-esque centerman (in addition to having Veleno and Rasmussen in the system)? Absolutely. And I'm pretty pumped about it.

What's the difference between me n you?

If we had played this year picking up where we left off at the end of last season (still out of playoffs but showing hope and progress like we sorta expected), I would be fine and thrilled to settle for an O'Reilly or Schenn. But no. They have angered me with their poop play, and now I desire only the most extravagant draft picks. And I demand satisfaction. If I'm gonna be forced to watch the same s***ty team again next year I want ******* results Stephen. Crosby's and Malkin's bicch. 5 of them.