2020 Offseason

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

But the point is that Buffalo made the kind of trade that you're advocating for and it didn't work out for them. This is exactly what could happen if the Wings make those kinds of deals. And we'd be worse off for it. I actually think we'd be more successful building thru the draft and supplementing what are sure to be high draft picks for the next few years with the Manthas, Larkins, and Zadinas instead of "hoping" that we get better players by trading them.

We all agree that Larkin is at least a 2C, right? Zadina and Mantha are top 6 wingers, right? And we were still the worst team in the league with those guys. So u want to trade them for picks in order for us to be worse? You literally can't be worse than last place. And we could then end up with draft picks that don't return us a 2C or better, or 2 top 6 wingers. How would that make this team better?

Edited April 9, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

14 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I mean call me annoyed at this point, but I've typed out pages about my thoughts on Zadina on like 300 separate occasions now, and you Zagina lickers still misrepresent and strawman mine and Mackel's position. I've said from November 2018 till today pretty consistently he is Hudler/Tatar/Nyquist. A good player but not a game-changer. Not the building block this team needed out of a 6th overall pick.

#bust

 

This is exactly why you get blowback from so many of us. You and Mackel keep using the word "bust". Yes, it's a subjective term, but to use it to describe Zadina is still inaccurate IMO. 

I mean, fellow Red Wing Sam Gagner was a former 6th overall pick. Is he a bust? And if not, then how is Zadina one?

Other 6th overall picks since Gagner range from to Nikita Filatov, Brent Connolly, and Mika Zabinejad, to OEL, Hampus Lindholm, and Matthew Tkachuk. Other 6th overall picks during that time frame are Pavel Zacha, Cody Glass, Sean Monahan, and Jake Virtanen.

I would currently put Zadina at 6th on that list. Behind OEL, Zabinejad, Lindholm, Tkachuk, and Monahan, but ahead of the rest. And I think he will still bet better. So if Zadina is a "bust", then what are the rest of the players on that list?

What is Zadina? Not the elite winger we were hoping for, but still a solid top 6 winger who is only going to better. Hardly a bust. Which just makes you and Mackel sound like trolls whenever you refer to him as such.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[kipwinger 8,522]

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

But the point is that Buffalo made the kind of trade that you're advocating for and it didn't work out for them. This is exactly what could happen if the Wings make those kinds of deals. And we'd be worse off for it. I actually think we'd be more successful building thru the draft and supplementing what are sure to be high draft picks for the next few years with the Manthas, Larkins, and Zadinas instead of "hoping" that we get better players by trading them.

We all agree that Larkin is at least a 2C, right? Zadina and Mantha are top 6 wingers, right? And we were still the worst team in the league with those guys. So u want to trade them for picks in order for us to be worse? You literally can't be worse than last place. And we could then end up with draft picks that don't return us a 2C or better, or 2 top 6 wingers. How would that make this team better?

Counterpoint: There are many examples of teams holding on to their "core" for too long and A) not winning, and B) not getting anything valuable for these players before they star falling off.  Look at:

Anaheim: Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler

San Jose: Pavelski, Thornton, Marleau, Couture

They never won anything, year after year trotting out the same inferior "core" and just tinkering around the edges.  Compare those teams to Ottawa, who traded their "core" (Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Duchene) and have a f*ck load of 1st to show for it AND are still a lottery team. I think I'd rather be in Ottawa's position than those other two teams right about now.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

This is exactly why you get blowback from so many of us. You and Mackel keep using the word "bust". Yes, it's a subjective term, but to use it to describe Zadina is still inaccurate IMO. 

I mean, fellow Red Wing Sam Gagner was a former 6th overall pick. Is he a bust? And if not, then how is Zadina one?

Firstly, I can write pages - and have - detailing exactly what I do and don't like about Zadina, leading to my personal opinion on him.

The response I get to that is consistently one lacking in any substance, and 10 times out of 10 is rooted soley in "well I'm a Red Wings slappy and I know he''l be great because I hope he'll be great".

So either give me some concrete reasons why I'm so wrong about boy wonder or learn to deal with it. I don't have much sympathy for any argument rooted in "well the collective narrative of the Red Wings fan hive mind says I should think X way about X player."

And yeah Gagner being a bottom6er/AHLer after being picked 6th overall is in bust territory.

Secondly, you all know my Hudler/Zadina perspective. I've laid it out countless times. So the whole strawman thing you rolled out to start this cant even be feigned with ignorance.

Lastly, I do enjoy using #bust because of the programmed screeching it incites. You'd think yall would learn not be triggered by it by now, but nah the blind faith in Zadina is too precious.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Other 6th overall picks since Gagner range from to Nikita Filatov, Brent Connolly, and Mika Zabinejad, to OEL, Hampus Lindholm, and Matthew Tkachuk. Other 6th overall picks during that time frame are Pavel Zacha, Cody Glass, Sean Monahan, and Jake Virtanen.

I would currently put Zadina at 6th on that list. Behind OEL, Zabinejad, Lindholm, Tkachuk, and Monahan, but ahead of the rest. And I think he will still bet better. So if Zadina is a "bust", then what are the rest of the players on that list?

What is Zadina? Not the elite winger we were hoping for, but still a solid top 6 winger who is only going to better. Hardly a bust. Which just makes you and Mackel sound like trolls whenever you refer to him as such.

What's your point here? That some 6th overall picks are utter disappointments and some live up to the hype? Well good, I hope that puts it into some perspective that what I'm suggesting isn't all that wild. Kid should be traded while there are still folks buying the hype...

[kipwinger 8,522]

TSN did a mock draft today and had the Red Wings with the 1st overall, taking Lafreniere. Ottawa pick 4th and 5th taking Stutzle and Rossi.  Who would you rather be if you're a rebuilding team?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

25 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

TSN did a mock draft today and had the Red Wings with the 1st overall, taking Lafreniere. Ottawa pick 4th and 5th taking Stutzle and Rossi.  Who would you rather be if you're a rebuilding team?

Purely for the German-Connection I'd take Stutzle and Rossi.

Would be pretty sick to have that possible high-end C depth, and not one but two players that can speak kraut with Seider.

[kipwinger 8,522]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Purely for the German-Connection I'd take Stutzle and Rossi.

Would be pretty sick to have that possible high-end C depth, and not one but two players that can speak kraut with Seider.

Well I've got a little intrigue for you then.  In this weeks "31 Thoughts", Elliotte Friedman was relaying a story about Cole Perfetti, who is a family friend of Kris Draper.

"Another form of motivation came from an old family friend, Kris Draper. Perfetti played with Draper’s son, Kienan, in minor hockey and billeted in Saginaw with a family that is close to the 1,157-game NHL veteran.

“It seems like no one’s doing anything, but (Kris) said there’s someone across the world working harder than me right now — someone who wants to be the best.”

Now, this could mean something generic like "someone out there somewhere is working harder than you, so you have to bust your ass", or it could mean "the Red Wings love Tim Stutzle".  Just sayin'.

[kipwinger 8,522]

The plot thickens.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

25 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Well I've got a little intrigue for you then.  In this weeks "31 Thoughts", Elliotte Friedman was relaying a story about Cole Perfetti, who is a family friend of Kris Draper.

"Another form of motivation came from an old family friend, Kris Draper. Perfetti played with Draper’s son, Kienan, in minor hockey and billeted in Saginaw with a family that is close to the 1,157-game NHL veteran.

“It seems like no one’s doing anything, but (Kris) said there’s someone across the world working harder than me right now — someone who wants to be the best.”

Now, this could mean something generic like "someone out there somewhere is working harder than you, so you have to bust your ass", or it could mean "the Red Wings love Tim Stutzle".  Just sayin'.

I definitely like to hope - just like with Seider - that the Wings have their man picked. That gives me a lot of confidence.

I will laugh so hard my sides will be in orbit if we take Stutzle over Lafreniere first overall. The absolute cojones of that move would be amazing.

The NHL:

Me:

Edited April 9, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[kipwinger 8,522]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I definitely like to hope - just like with Seider - that the Wings have their man picked. That gives me a lot of confidence.

I will laugh so hard my sides will be in orbit if we take Stutzle over Lafreniere first overall. The absolute cojones of that move would be amazing.

I mean, it would be in keeping with Yzerman's tendency to f*** up asset management for sure.  If you like Stutzle more than Lafreniere and you have the 1st pick you'd better trade back to #3 and land some additional assets.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

17 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I mean, it would be in keeping with Yzerman's tendency to f*** up asset management for sure.  If you like Stutzle more than Lafreniere and you have the 1st pick you'd better trade back to #3 and land some additional assets.

You know I'm not really into media/fan draft rankings at all

For that reason I'd love to see Yzerman not pick Lafreneire 1st overall, and basically give a finger to every amateur scout and bogus media ranking out there.

The hockey community: "Lafreniere is the undisputed 1st overall, generational talent"

Yzerman:

Edited April 9, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[kipwinger 8,522]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You know I'm not really into media/fan draft rankings at all

For that reason I'd love to see Yzerman not pick Lafreneire 1st overall, and basically give a finger to every amateur scout and bogus media ranking out there.

The hockey community: "Lafreniere is the undisputed 1st overall, generational talent"

Yzerman:

Who are you telling?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Who are you telling?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What's your point here? That some 6th overall picks are utter disappointments and some live up to the hype? Well good, I hope that puts it into some perspective that what I'm suggesting isn't all that wild. Kid should be traded while there are still folks buying the hype...

My point is that a player can fail to live up to the hype and still not be a "bust". Many of the players I listed, including Zadina fall into that middle ground. Not good enough to be elite, but not bad enough to be a bust. 

My point was to show that over the last 10 or 15 drafts that 6th overall picks range from non-NHLers (Filatov) to top forwards and top pair D (Tkachuk, OEL). And calling Zadina a bust because he's not at the elite level would be false, because then most 6th overall picks would then be "busts". And I think it's safe to say that busts are by definition, the rare exception, not the often rule.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

My point is that a player can fail to live up to the hype and still not be a "bust". Many of the players I listed, including Zadina fall into that middle ground. Not good enough to be elite, but not bad enough to be a bust. 

My point was to show that over the last 10 or 15 drafts that 6th overall picks range from non-NHLers (Filatov) to top forwards and top pair D (Tkachuk, OEL). And calling Zadina a bust because he's not at the elite level would be false, because then most 6th overall picks would then be "busts". And I think it's safe to say that busts are by definition, the rare exception, not the often rule.

So we agree then that Zadina is a disappointment?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Counterpoint: There are many examples of teams holding on to their "core" for too long and A) not winning, and B) not getting anything valuable for these players before they star falling off.  Look at:

Anaheim: Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler

San Jose: Pavelski, Thornton, Marleau, Couture

They never won anything, year after year trotting out the same inferior "core" and just tinkering around the edges.  Compare those teams to Ottawa, who traded their "core" (Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Duchene) and have a f*ck load of 1st to show for it AND are still a lottery team. I think I'd rather be in Ottawa's position than those other two teams right about now.

 

I'll give you Anaheim. I would also include the Kariya, Selanne Ducks as well.

San Jose, on the other hand, was far too good for far too long, to not have a Cup victory. IDK if it was bad luck, choke jobs, or what, but they were certainly good enough to do it. And lesser teams during that time did win Cups. I don't think they're the same. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The plot thickens.

 

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I definitely like to hope - just like with Seider - that the Wings have their man picked. That gives me a lot of confidence.

I will laugh so hard my sides will be in orbit if we take Stutzle over Lafreniere first overall. The absolute cojones of that move would be amazing.

The NHL:

Me:

Are you guys worried at all that he won't play center at the NHL level? If he's going to end up being a winger, and he's picked over Lafreniere, I think that would be a mistake. The only way I take him first is if I'm confident that 1C is in his future.

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So we agree then that Zadina is a disappointment?

So far, Zadina has not been the player we hoped we were getting. So by definition, disappointing would be accurate. But,

1. He may still develop into a top line winger, which would not be disappointing at all.

2. "Disappointment" and "bust" are two entirely different things.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

Are you guys worried at all that he won't play center at the NHL level? If he's going to end up being a winger, and he's picked over Lafreniere, I think that would be a mistake. The only way I take him first is if I'm confident that 1C is in his future.

So far, Zadina has not been the player we hoped we were getting. So by definition, disappointing would be accurate. But,

1. He may still develop into a top line winger, which would not be disappointing at all.

2. "Disappointment" and "bust" are two entirely different things.

Whether or not he projects as a bust or beneath hes pedigree is almost beside the point. Both are dissapointments and we can cash in on him now while he still has some hype. In 3 or 4 years when its clear hes only a medicore top6er his value will have dropped.

[LeftWinger 4,958]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The plot thickens.

Oops, sorry, I posted this in the draft thread... But my opinion is the same, if Yzerman doesn't trade the #1 to the #2 team for assets and instead just draft's Stutzle at #1, then not only is he crazy, we all are for putting our faith in him.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Oops, sorry, I posted this in the draft thread... But my opinion is the same, if Yzerman doesn't trade the #1 to the #2 team for assets and instead just draft's Stutzle at #1, then not only is he crazy, we all are for putting our faith in him.

There's no brakes on Stevie Y's wild ride

[mackel 681]

14 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

This is exactly why you get blowback from so many of us. You and Mackel keep using the word "bust". Yes, it's a subjective term, but to use it to describe Zadina is still inaccurate IMO. 

I mean, fellow Red Wing Sam Gagner was a former 6th overall pick. Is he a bust? And if not, then how is Zadina one?

Other 6th overall picks since Gagner range from to Nikita Filatov, Brent Connolly, and Mika Zabinejad, to OEL, Hampus Lindholm, and Matthew Tkachuk. Other 6th overall picks during that time frame are Pavel Zacha, Cody Glass, Sean Monahan, and Jake Virtanen.

I would currently put Zadina at 6th on that list. Behind OEL, Zabinejad, Lindholm, Tkachuk, and Monahan, but ahead of the rest. And I think he will still bet better. So if Zadina is a "bust", then what are the rest of the players on that list?

What is Zadina? Not the elite winger we were hoping for, but still a solid top 6 winger who is only going to better. Hardly a bust. Which just makes you and Mackel sound like trolls whenever you refer to him as such.

Leave me outta dis

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Firstly, I can write pages - and have - detailing exactly what I do and don't like about Zadina, leading to my personal opinion on him.

The response I get to that is consistently one lacking in any substance, and 10 times out of 10 is rooted soley in "well I'm a Red Wings slappy and I know he''l be great because I hope he'll be great".

So either give me some concrete reasons why I'm so wrong about boy wonder or learn to deal with it. I don't have much sympathy for any argument rooted in "well the collective narrative of the Red Wings fan hive mind says I should think X way about X player."

And yeah Gagner being a bottom6er/AHLer after being picked 6th overall is in bust territory.

Secondly, you all know my Hudler/Zadina perspective. I've laid it out countless times. So the whole strawman thing you rolled out to start this cant even be feigned with ignorance.

Lastly, I do enjoy using #bust because of the programmed screeching it incites. You'd think yall would learn not be triggered by it by now, but nah the blind faith in Zadina is too precious.

 

Drop that mic!

[mackel 681]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The plot thickens.

Well in my mind then if we have the 1st pick and the team in 2nd wants Laffy and we want Stutzie you leverage the situation and get another high end asset.  Don't just go blow you brains out and use the 1st pick on Laffy.

[Dabura 12,207]

23 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What's the difference between me n you?

If we had played this year picking up where we left off at the end of last season (still out of playoffs but showing hope and progress like we sorta expected), I would be fine and thrilled to settle for an O'Reilly or Schenn. But no. They have angered me with their poop play, and now I desire only the most extravagant draft picks. And I demand satisfaction. If I'm gonna be forced to watch the same s***ty team again next year I want ******* results Stephen. Crosby's and Malkin's bicch. 5 of them.

I'm actually pretty open to whatever. Most of the arguing I do here is for rhetorical sport. There's definitely a part of me that hates what this team and franchise have become and wants to see Yzerman take a hammer to it.

[Dabura 12,207]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

TSN did a mock draft today and had the Red Wings with the 1st overall, taking Lafreniere. Ottawa pick 4th and 5th taking Stutzle and Rossi.  Who would you rather be if you're a rebuilding team?

I guess I'd lean towards Stutzle and Rossi...? Maybe? Put it this way: It's close. I'd be having long, loooooong talks with my scouts for days on end.

I'll be much more sour if the Sens get Lafreniere and Stutzle/Rossi. I might join the "F**** this s***, burn it to the ground" camp if that s*** happens.