krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dabura said: what are we even arguing about Goalies, whether they're worth taking high in the draft, and the importance of the position compared to other positions... basically... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted July 2, 2021 Just now, krsmith17 said: Goalies, whether they're worth taking high in the draft, and the importance of the position compared to other positions... basically... Oh, I know. I was just being rhetorical. I think it's a worthwhile debate. Indeed, it's one I've waded into. But, like, peeps be knifing each other in the kidneys over this s***. IT AIN'T WORTH IT, BROS! SAVE YOUR VITRIOL FOR SEIDER WHEN HE ONLY PUTS UP ONE POINT THROUGH HIS FIRST THREE NHL GAMES! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted July 2, 2021 58 minutes ago, Dabura said: what are we even arguing about If Nyquist is the future. 1 Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted July 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Hookersarethefuture said: Yes lets listen to the hockey writers and put all our hopes on alnefelt panning out ...does anyone actually know those 2 goalies he suggests drafting? Bet he doesnt know much about them either. I dont think ullmark is a real #1 but who knows if he becomes a late bloomer . Id have zero problem signing him to 2-3 yrs but hes not the longterm solution I’m not complaining im telling you the truth that we suck at drafting goalies .... go look at our history , if you cant see it im sorry but your just in denial . Yzerman drafted vasilevsky in the first round and his next 5 goalie picks were flops ... so here’s a way to better our odds? How about picking the best goalie prospect in sweden in the last 25 yrs rather than doing the same s*** the last 30 yrs and expecting a different result? I’ll tell you one thing if we dont take a stud goalie this draft or the next in the 2nd round and beyond (since thats your gameplan) and with the time it would take them to be ready,we’ll be waiting a long ass time Just cross your fingers and pray That's the point. Alnefelt is a gamble. Ullmark is a gamble. Waldo is a gamble. But acquiring the former 2 doesn't require a 6th overall pick, like the latter will. And again. If Detroit sucks at drafting goalies, then would it not make more sense to use their first pick to draft a player who plays a position that they historically do better with? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: That's the point. Alnefelt is a gamble. Ullmark is a gamble. Waldo is a gamble. But acquiring the former 2 doesn't require a 6th overall pick, like the latter will. And again. If Detroit sucks at drafting goalies, then would it not make more sense to use their first pick to draft a player who plays a position that they historically do better with? To be fair, I don't think you can really use Detroit not being good at drafting goalies as a reason to not take Wallstedt at 6 (a consensus top 10 pick). Maybe you can use Detroit not being good at developing goalies as a reason to not take Wallstedt. But even then, with a whole new regime under Yzerman, no longer Holland, I'm not sure if that's a good enough reason either. For me, it just comes down to building / drafting philosophy. I prefer to build a young core of skaters and worry about the net later. Thus using all of my high picks on skaters. Maybe that's what Yzerman will do. Maybe not. Maybe he'll see Wallstedt as too good a prospect to pass on. Nobody has any idea what Yzerman is going to do with that first pick. I just hope whoever he drafts becomes a top 3-5 pick in this draft regardless of position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,019 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Dabura said: what are we even arguing about How much adderall is too much adderall? 1 Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 22 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said: He won 2 cups and nominated twice for the vezina but he’s only had one really good nhl season ... anyways Yes. Quick had one really good season; 2011-12, where he had a 0.928 SV%. Other than that season, his best SV% was 0.921. Good, not great. Howard had four seasons of 0.927, 0.926, 0.924, and 0.923. But "Quick was one of the best goalies in the league" in his prime, and "Howard was average" in his prime... Both were average with the ability to turn it on. Both had the ability to win Cups. Quick won Cups because of the team in front of him. Howard didn't win Cups, because of the team in front of him... 34 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said: You cant argue most cup winning teams have drafted their own goalie regardless of what draft position they were taken . Those are just facts just like the fact that we’ve done a horrible job in 3 decades and unless something changes quick we’ll have no one to take over in 3-4 yrs You keep saying we've done a horrible job over the past 3 decades, as if we haven't won 4! (FOUR!) Stanley Cups in that time... 37 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said: Wont be a 2013 draft and you know it so why even pretend it is . Everyone knew mcdavid would be a star . Everyone knew seth jones was a #1 d pair guy despite analytics ppl now trying to say otherwise despite not even watching games . Nobody is singing high praises for anyone No. I don't know it. Neither do you. Neither does anyone, including McKenzie, Button, Pronman, Wheeler, Ferrari, Scouch, or whoever the f*** else you might read / listen to... I said not including McDavid. No one "knew" Jones was going to be a number one defenseman, anymore than anyone "knows" that Beniers is going to be a number two center... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 9 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Yes, Howard was an average goaltender. That, we do agree on. What we disagree on, bringing us back to the root of this entire debate... You can win a Stanley Cup with average goaltending... We did it in 2008 with Osgood. Chicago did it in 2010 with Niemi, and twice with Crawford in '13 and '15. LA did it twice with Quick in '12 and '14. Pittsburgh did it twice with Murray in '16 and '17. None of these goaltenders were significantly better than Howard, and none of these goaltenders were 1st round picks, let alone top 10 picks... Saying Osgood was an “average “ goaltender is a bit disingenuous - especially when you consider he replaced Hasek who more or less was running outta gas at that stage of his career. Howard wished he could’ve had the same success as Osgood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 6 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said: Yes you always have an excuse howard hey? I suppose quick won the conn smythe cause of his team as well hey? He didnt have a factor in helping them win it but he somehow got a trophy for it . Besides the last few seasons quick was pretty much a 915% goalie . Anyways i wont get into another stupid pointless s*** with you . I think quick was better you dont agree . Cool I'm not "making excuses" for Howard at all. He was an average goalie. Which isn't a bad thing at all, because again, teams have proven and continue to prove that you can win with average goaltending. Howard had more good seasons (above 0.920 SV%) than Quick, and he will likely finish with a very similar SV% (maybe slightly better). They were both very average goalies. No. Quick won the Conn Smythe because, like I said, he was lights out for that playoff run. He was elite that postseason (and very good in another). That doesn't mean he was an elite goalie... Both goalies hovered around that 0.915 mark. Hence their average... I don't really blame you for not wanting to "get into another stupid pointless s***" with me... Quick was not better. He just happened to play on better teams... 6 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said: Jesus f***en christ man . I clearly said we’ve done a horrible job at drafting goalies the last 3 decades . Once again if you dont agree? Guess what your wrong , and yes if you think otherwise i dont care Yes. Only drafting one (Howard), or two if you want to include Mrazek, average goaltenders in 3 decades is pretty f***ing bad. But we still won 4 Stanley Cups in that time, with goalies drafted (in the 3rd round), signed in free agency, and traded for... I'm not at all saying that Detroit has been good at drafting goalies (they clearly haven't been). What I am saying is that they've had a TON of success, despite their inability to draft / develop elite goaltenders. So have a lot of other teams... 6 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said: yes no one knew mackinnon would be a star nhler or jones either for that matter . The whole draft was a debate between mackinnon or jones at #1 . Man just stop Reading / comprehension is hard... Again, I said "not including MacKinnon". Everyone "knew" MacKinnon would be elite. No one "knew" Jones would be elite. There were question marks in his game, and for that reason, he dropped to Nashville at 4th overall... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 6 hours ago, F.Michael said: Saying Osgood was an “average “ goaltender is a bit disingenuous - especially when you consider he replaced Hasek who more or less was running outta gas at that stage of his career. Howard wished he could’ve had the same success as Osgood. Meh. I think Osgood was the definition of an average goaltender. He put up good, unremarkable numbers his whole career. He did have a couple playoff runs where he was able to turn it on. Much like so many average NHL goaltenders have done / have the ability to do. Exactly, he would have never taken over for prime (or even average) Hasek. He took over for 43 year old "running out of gas" Hasek. And did a phenomenal job that playoff run. Yes, I'm sure Howard does wish he was on a stacked team his entire career, and won multiple Cups... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 55 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said: If you wanna play that ... howard had 4 920% seasons 2/4 were with lidstrom around , sure that didnt help . Outside last few seasons where l.a were horses*** quick was pretty much always a 915% goalie and would have better % now + he won/was nominated for awards ...he was a better goalie than howard which is what i always said . Nope, even Lidstrom couldn't help them win a Cup that year, but sure, if you want to suggest that the reason they didn't win was their 0.924 SV% goalie, you go right ahead... So if LA were "horse s***" the last few seasons, what were Detroit the last few seasons of Howard's career? Howard was also pretty consistently around that 0.915 mark (between 0.910-0.920), on much worse teams... 1 hour ago, Hookersarethefuture said: He was a better goalie than howard, ask anyone not a wings fan and i bet you’ll lose that poll... anyways you dont agree with me , its your opinion . Cool i dont gives two s***s lol Again, comprehension... The argument was never who was a better goalie, it was that they were both very average goalies... Maybe Quick was slightly better than Howard. So you're saying that we can win multiple Cups with a goalie slightly better than Howard? Okay... 1 hour ago, Hookersarethefuture said: Yup so we’ll Win the cup again easy peasy without the goalie ... now lets just find our lidstrom yzerman fedorov konstantinov shanahan datsyuk zetterberg and so on and so on so we can mask that deficiency Nope. Winning a Cup is never "easy peasy"... It will always take a very good team, combined with a lot of luck. Literally no team has any of those players, or anything close, but yeah, we won't ever win again without them, or an ELITE goalie... 1 hour ago, Hookersarethefuture said: i understood quite fully you didnt include mackinnon but i also said that the draft was all about the jones or mackinnon at #1 that ppl kept talking about so i’m pretty f***en sure if people are debating whether to take 1 guy or the other at #1 and think ones elite they think both are elite . Makes simple sense you would think? But you’ll come up with some clever s*** about how he fell to 4 so theres no point talking to you That draft was never a two horse race. Every single person that was following that draft, leading up to it, knew MacKinnon was a MUCH better player, and he was always going to be the undisputed number one. Yes, Jones did fall to 4, because he was never really in the conversation for 1st overall. That was just media hype, just like every. single. draft. ever... 1 hour ago, Hookersarethefuture said: im all done with this stupid s*** man ...if anyone has anything to actually say about the upcoming 2021 draft coming f***en please feel free to post something lmao You keep saying you're done, so be done. You don't give two s***s about my opinion, so stop replying... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 15 minutes ago, Hookersarethefuture said: I said howard got 2 out of his 4 920% + seasons because lidstrom was there . Lidstrom couldnt help with a cup run cause howard couldnt win crap i wont even bother responding to all the other nonsensical bulls*** you’ve convinced yourself to be true So 2 seasons were all because of Lidstrom. What about the other 2 seasons? I'm sure Doughty had nothing to do with any of Quick's better seasons... Everything you spew is nonsensical bulls***... 1 Hookersarethefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 5,152 Report post Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) Well, I saw this on Twitter today, so there's that... Edited July 22, 2022 by LeftWinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 I will say the following in defense of the #TeamWallstedt cause: > If we're looking to say our prayers and swing for the fences with a high-risk, high-reward selection...BAH GAWD! THAT'S JESPER WALLSTEDT'S MUSIC! > If we're instead looking to play it safe and take a guy with a probably-not-sky-high ceiling but a probably-pretty-high floor...BAH GAWD! THAT'S ALSO JESPER WALLSTEDT'S MUSIC! > Wallstedt is arguably a better goalie prospect than [skater] is a [skater's position] prospect. > The plan is to be done with this rebuild within the next 3-5 years. I'm assuming the worst is already behind us, and that we're going to start improving year-over-year, and that we're going to get zero lotto luck, and that Yzerman and his scouts aren't going to find a bunch of top-line gems outside the first round – basically, that we're not going to emerge from this rebuild with Cernak, Cirelli, Gourde, Hedman, Killorn, Kucherov, Palat, Point, Sergachev (Drouin), Stamkos, and Vasilevsky. Point being: A great goalie could be an equalizer for us and a goalie equalizer may well be a necessity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 5 hours ago, Hookersarethefuture said: We can find one of those on a street corner when our team’s built An overhyped prospect? Always plenty of those laying around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 767 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: An overhyped prospect? Always plenty of those laying around. We have one of those... everyone say it with me now.... "ZADINA!!!!" 2 2 BarkBurgerman, F.Michael, AtlantaHotWings and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 My only issue with drafting a goalie so early is the holes we have down the middle and LHD. If we had a blue chip center prospect and a blue chip LHD prospect in addition to what we have right now, taking the goalie at 6 wouldn't bother me. But center and defense are much more difficult positions to fill than between the pipes. There are young goalies available via trade all the time, and are much cheaper to acquire than a top six center or top 4 dman. Obviously it's gonna come down to who Yzerman thinks is the best available at #6. But would taking a goalie at 6 if guys like Eklund or Hughes are still on the board be the wise move? I personally do not think so. As far as all this bickering about drafting goalies in the last 25 years goes, it's like this: the man responsible for that lack of success is no longer here. Therefore, the last 25 years is no longer an applicable example of Yzerman's capability of drafting and developing goalies. I do think Yzerman addresses the lack of goalie depth in this draft. But none of us know how he will go about it. All these mock drafts are more meaningless than they have ever been before based on the circumstances around this draft. When mock drafts have the Wings taking the goalie at 6, it's based on their prospect pool; it's not based on some leak from Wings management. Maybe Jesper is the guy. maybe it's Cossa. It's just as likely that it is neither. 1 Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 On 7/3/2021 at 1:29 AM, BarkBurgerman said: This isn't really much of a good assessment at all. Ullmark isn't really a gamble at all. He's an NHL goalie. Will he ever become an elite goalie at 27 years old? Slim chance. Alnefelt is the exact opposite. Huge gamble. He's never played a game in NA, and as a 3rd rounder it's far less likely he ever becomes elite or even becomes a starter. Walnuts - as a top10 ranked goalie - historically has a 55% chance of becoming a starter - and an even higher chance of becoming elite. Not sure you're understanding his point even a little here. Detroit's track record with drafting goalies is abysmal. But Detroit also doesn't bother to draft goalies in the first round. This is an easy example of just crap shoot the draft is for goalies in the later rounds. FIVE decent drafted goalies in the history of one of the oldest franchises on the books. Mccollum (very last pick) being the only shot in the first in the last 50 years. Because Detroit only seems able to draft a medicore starter once every 20 years without ever drafting high, it's probably time to step up and spend a high pick on a legit elite starter. Walnut level goalies only seem to come around every 2-3 years now, and he's here now right at our position. Sure you can win a cup without doing this, and Detroit has in the past done this and also did this for the entire deadwing era, but it's not as high a probability to happen as most folks will have you believe. At the end of the day I agree with @krsmith17 at some level. It comes down to philosophy. If you wanna build an elite skating team that doesn't need a great goalie then by all means avoid goalies like the plague. But history seems to suggest most cup teams are not powerhouse skating squads like early 2000s Detroit and 2010s Chicago who can afford this. This is a pretty good post. 1 Hookersarethefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 2 hours ago, marcaractac said: My only issue with drafting a goalie so early is the holes we have down the middle and LHD. If we had a blue chip center prospect and a blue chip LHD prospect in addition to what we have right now, taking the goalie at 6 wouldn't bother me. But center and defense are much more difficult positions to fill than between the pipes. There are young goalies available via trade all the time, and are much cheaper to acquire than a top six center or top 4 dman. Obviously it's gonna come down to who Yzerman thinks is the best available at #6. But would taking a goalie at 6 if guys like Eklund or Hughes are still on the board be the wise move? I personally do not think so. Of all the potential skater candidates at 6OA (i.e. everyone not named Owen Power or Matthew Beniers), Hughes is, to me, the one guy who checks all the boxes and settles the "Should we take a skater or the goalie?" question himself. Having a great goalie would be great. But a Hughes-Seider pairing? That's the stuff dreams are made of. Because Hughes is *exactly* what we'd want in Seider's left-side defense partner. Coming away from this draft with Hughes-Seider in the oven...and then going into next season with a shot at landing one of those marquee 2022 forwards...is how you change the narrative from "The Wings have some nice pieces" to "The Wings are building something special." I'm not confident Hughes will be there at 6, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, marcaractac said: My only issue with drafting a goalie so early is the holes we have down the middle and LHD. If we had a blue chip center prospect and a blue chip LHD prospect in addition to what we have right now, taking the goalie at 6 wouldn't bother me. But center and defense are much more difficult positions to fill than between the pipes. There are young goalies available via trade all the time, and are much cheaper to acquire than a top six center or top 4 dman. Obviously it's gonna come down to who Yzerman thinks is the best available at #6. But would taking a goalie at 6 if guys like Eklund or Hughes are still on the board be the wise move? I personally do not think so. As far as all this bickering about drafting goalies in the last 25 years goes, it's like this: the man responsible for that lack of success is no longer here. Therefore, the last 25 years is no longer an applicable example of Yzerman's capability of drafting and developing goalies. I do think Yzerman addresses the lack of goalie depth in this draft. But none of us know how he will go about it. All these mock drafts are more meaningless than they have ever been before based on the circumstances around this draft. When mock drafts have the Wings taking the goalie at 6, it's based on their prospect pool; it's not based on some leak from Wings management. Maybe Jesper is the guy. maybe it's Cossa. It's just as likely that it is neither. Also, an NHL team only has room for one starter and one backup goalie. If they have a good one on the roster, and a good prospect goalie in the system, they will inevitably try to trade one or the other. An abundance of NHL ready forwards and dmen is more easily absorbed into the system/depth chart than NHL ready goalies, which is why its harder to acquire a top line F or top pair D from other teams than it is a good starting goaltender. Edited July 4, 2021 by Neomaxizoomdweebie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 18 hours ago, mackel said: We have one of those... everyone say it with me now.... "ZADINA!!!!" Predictable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted July 4, 2021 Goalie stats among top 5 picking teams: 1. Buffalo- Ullmark (2.78/.912), Hutton (2.71/.909) 2. Seattle- no goalies 3. Anaheim- Gibson (2.58/.917), Stolarz (2.78/.914) 4. New Jersey- Blackwood (2.83/.911), Dell (2.83/.906), Wedgewood (3.07/.902) 5. Columbus- Korpisalo (2.90/.905), Merzlikins (2.54/.920) So if Waldo is supposed to be the "Next Lundqvist", then why would he even be available at 6? Certainly the 5 picking before us would take him based on their lack of elite goalies, right? 1 LeftWinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted July 5, 2021 If Yzerman isn’t keen on drafting Wallstedt - would be neat if the local kid Hughes was available. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 767 Report post Posted July 5, 2021 5 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: Predictable. No, accurate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 5, 2021 8 hours ago, F.Michael said: If Yzerman isn’t keen on drafting Wallstedt - would be neat if the local kid Hughes was available. My concern with Luke is that he would be to the Hughes bothers as Jordan (or even worse, Jared...) is to the Staal brothers... Nah, really though, I'd like Hughes at 6, along with about 6 or 7 other guys at that spot... I'm thinking it will be one of the three Swedes (Eklund, Edvinsson, or Wallstedt)... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
