Red Wings Brass Believes This Will Be An Extended Rebuild

[Gniwder 168]

8 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

My point is its not every team in the league that has super star players ... and you want 2 ... if we want those we have to depend on ourselves with our early 1st rounders next few seasons cause we wont get one by trading for pick #30 

We are tanking , like i said we’ll have to depend on ourselves unless we luck out like ottawa did with the karlsson deal which wont happen

In my POV perennial contenders usually have about 3 superstars carrying the team.

• Crosby/Malkin/Letang
• Ovechkin/Backstrom/Carlsson
• Bergeron/Marchand/Chara
• Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom
• Kanes/Toews/Keith
• Kopitar/Doughty/Quick
• Stamkos/Kucherov/Hedman

This is the same formula and structure I would like to follow and build to allow for a 10 year window of elite level competition.

I think we have our first piece in Seider. Maybe Raymond can become the next piece? Maybe this years draft choice as well? That would be ideal. I just don't see Zadina filling that role... or Larkin, or Bertuzzi, and so on and so forth. This fact makes these later players good and valuable, but still inevitably expendable until our cornerstones are in place in my mind. 

 

[Gniwder 168]

9 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Yes, awarding Seider multiple Norris trophies is premature. Should I have to state something so obvious? No scapegoating. I agree Seider will be a Pronger-like dman. It's too soon to send him to the Hall and award him his mutiple Norris trophies.

Okay, so all your himming and hawing was for nothing. Cool.

11 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Also, did not contradict myself. You spot picked two lines to make it appear as if I did. Strawman. 

Lol I'm still not convinced you understand what a strawman is

Spotpick eh? Here's your context:

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

I think your assessment of Zadina is premature yes. I don't think your assessment of Seider is premature. Seider has yet to show any sign of not living up to expectations.

 

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

Maybe it is premature to say Seider will be the next Pronger. I don't actively say it because I think that can very well be the case at some point.

>Assessment of Seider not premature, because living up to expectations
>Assessment of Seider maybe premature, I just don't say it because I agree with it

Oh wow, yeah, the context makes it not contradictory at all...

[marcaractac 3,963]

4 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Okay, so all your himming and hawing was for nothing. Cool.

Lol I'm still not convinced you understand what a strawman is

Spotpick eh? Here's your context:

 

>Assessment of Seider not premature, because living up to expectations
>Assessment of Seider maybe premature, I just don't say it because I agree with it

Oh wow, yeah, the context makes it not contradictory at all...

Yes, I do understand what a strawman is. You misrepresent what I present because it's what you find easiest to "defeat" me on. 

I've said countless time I mostly, key word MOSTLY agree with your assessment of Seider. I saw no reason to dive into it when the conversation was about Zadina. 

So must I do research into all of your opinions of every player and prospect and state my opinions on each one if I decide I want to engage you on one specifically?

[Gniwder 168]

Just now, marcaractac said:

Yes, I do understand what a strawman is. You misrepresent what I present because it's what you find easiest to "defeat" me on.

If knew what a strawman was you wouldn't be claiming it. I didn't misquote you. And now I've even provided the context to rebute your spot quote claims. You contradicted yourself. And now your dancing around saying NOW you DO think my assessment was premature and actually you just think Seider is Pronger-esque. My guy, you're all over the place.

7 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

So must I do research into all of your opinions of every player and prospect and state my opinions on each one if I decide I want to engage you on one specifically?

No, just use premature, extreme, and strawman correctly. Not hard to do.

[marcaractac 3,963]

15 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

If knew what a strawman was you wouldn't be claiming it. I didn't misquote you. And now I've even provided the context to rebute your spot quote claims. You contradicted yourself. And now your dancing around saying NOW you DO think my assessment was premature and actually you just think Seider is Pronger-esque. My guy, you're all over the place.

No, just use premature, extreme, and strawman correctly. Not hard to do.

There is a difference between a misquote and a misrepresentation. You did that latter. You're claiming misquote because it fits your narrative. 

But Jesus Christ can we get back to talking about players instead of definitions? We're both being ridiculous. 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

50 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

In my POV perennial contenders usually have about 3 superstars carrying the team.

• Crosby/Malkin/Letang
• Ovechkin/Backstrom/Carlsson
• Bergeron/Marchand/Chara
• Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom
• Kanes/Toews/Keith
• Kopitar/Doughty/Quick
• Stamkos/Kucherov/Hedman

This is the same formula and structure I would like to follow and build to allow for a 10 year window of elite level competition.

I think we have our first piece in Seider. Maybe Raymond can become the next piece? Maybe this years draft choice as well? That would be ideal. I just don't see Zadina filling that role... or Larkin, or Bertuzzi, and so on and so forth. This fact makes these later players good and valuable, but still inevitably expendable until our cornerstones are in place in my mind. 

 

You realize theres 31 and soon 32 teams right? You just left off 80% of teams and chara wasnt drafted by bos ...all of those guys we’re picked by their own pick ... like i said we’re gonna have to make our early picks count to get those star guys

i think raymond’s gonna be a big piece , he’s who i wanted so im high on him ... im not expecting anything from this draft unless we’re smart enough to get the one player ppl are saying has high upside to be elite . Wallstedt , anyone else im like ok coolbeans lets so who we take later

id rather keep bertuzzi over larkin , we see how much the teams fallen without him hes the heart and soul of this team not larkin and no doubt in my mind he’d be a playoff warrior once in .id have no problem locking him up 4.5x4 , see where we’re at after the 23 draft and id we’re still in shambles he’ll have 2 yrs left and still have value

[marcaractac 3,963]

6 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You realize theres 31 and soon 32 teams right? You just left off 80% of teams and chara wasnt drafted by bos ...all of those guys we’re picked by their own pick ... like i said we’re gonna have to make our early picks count to get those star guys

i think raymond’s gonna be a big piece , he’s who i wanted so im high on him ... im not expecting anything from this draft unless we’re smart enough to get the one player ppl are saying has high upside to be elite . Wallstedt , anyone else im like ok coolbeans lets so who we take later

id rather keep bertuzzi over larkin , we see how much the teams fallen without him hes the heart and soul of this team not larkin and no doubt in my mind he’d be a playoff warrior once in .id have no problem locking him up 4.5x4 , see where we’re at after the 23 draft and id we’re still in shambles he’ll have 2 yrs left and still have value

Tampa also won a cup without Stamkos. But their depth is just insane.

I agree that we need 2-3 cornerstone pieces to be perennial contenders. But we don't need to trade every good player we currently have to get there either. AA made sense. Mantha made sense. Bert in the next year or two may make sense. Larkin doesn't only because he is our only capable center and we'd be worst than last season without him. Zadina doesn't make sense because of his age and growth. The Mantha trade worked because his production was replaced as well as getting a couple extra stabs in the draft. 

We potentially have 2 said pieces in Seider and Raymond already. We hit with the top pick in one or both of the next two drafts and all is well. 

[Gniwder 168]

6 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

There is a difference between a misquote and a misrepresentation. You did that latter. You're claiming misquote because it fits your narrative. 

But Jesus Christ can we get back to talking about players instead of definitions? We're both being ridiculous. 

I quoted you and you claimed misrepresentation. In that case it's called a contextomy fallacy in case you're wondering, but it didn't occur. And you know that because I provided the relevant context already and the statements are still contradictory.

I should highlight all the times you said my assessment of Seider is not premature over the last 2 pages. Only to now say it is. But since you'd like to concede and move forward I think we're good.

 

I'd like to reiterate that I've grouped Zadina into the same tier player as Bertuzzi, Larkin, Fabbri, and Hronek. And you guys still draw issue with me. I'm not sure if this is because you disagree that that tier is tradeable or because you actually think Zadina is a tier above.

15 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You realize theres 31 and soon 32 teams right? You just left off 80% of teams and chara wasnt drafted by bos ...all of those guys we’re picked by their own pick ... like i said we’re gonna have to make our early picks count to get those star guys

i think raymond’s gonna be a big piece , he’s who i wanted so im high on him ... im not expecting anything from this draft unless we’re smart enough to get the one player ppl are saying has high upside to be elite . Wallstedt , anyone else im like ok coolbeans lets so who we take later

id rather keep bertuzzi over larkin , we see how much the teams fallen without him hes the heart and soul of this team not larkin and no doubt in my mind he’d be a playoff warrior once in .id have no problem locking him up 4.5x4 , see where we’re at after the 23 draft and id we’re still in shambles he’ll have 2 yrs left and still have value

Most teams aren't perennial contenders.

And that's exactly what I'm arguing. We need more high level picks and we need to make them count. Trading guys like Mantha/Tatar/Zadina provides that.

I agree that I prefer to keep Bertuzzi over Larkin. Larkin has the advantage of being our only center and now captain though so I may not get my wish. Hopefully we can replace center down the middle soon enough for him to be traded.

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, Gniwder said:

I quoted you and you claimed misrepresentation. In that case it's called a contextomy fallacy in case you're wondering, but it didn't occur. And you know that because I provided the relevant context already and the statements are still contradictory.

I should highlight all the times you said my assessment of Seider is not premature over the last 2 pages. Only to now say it is. But since you'd like to concede and move forward I think we're good.

 

I'd like to reiterate that I've grouped Zadina into the same tier player as Bertuzzi, Larkin, Fabbri, and Hronek. And you guys still draw issue with me. I'm not sure if this is because you disagree that that tier is tradeable or because you actually think Zadina is a tier above.

There is conceding, then there is the ol agree to disagree. The latter is where I fall. I wanna talk about hockey s***, not argue over the context of spot picked quotes. 

I've always said I mostly agreed with the Seider assessment and didn't see any point in calling it premature. Once again, Seider has nothing to do with Zadina.

I agree with Zadina as a 'tier 2' player, which I already told you. Others may disagree, but that's them. What I disagree with is that tier being generalized as tradable. In my eyes, tradable and non-tradable players can be of the same quality. Age, in my opinion, is the biggest factor for trading these types of players at this time. 

Say we get a top 5 pick the next two drafts. Who do you take, and why? 

[Gniwder 168]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

There is conceding, then there is the ol agree to disagree. The latter is where I fall. I wanna talk about hockey s***, not argue over the context of spot picked quotes.

I don't blame you. In your shoes I'd want to sweep this under the rug and move on too. But then again, I'd never posit such a poor line of argument.

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I've always said I mostly agreed with the Seider assessment and didn't see any point in calling it premature. Once again, Seider has nothing to do with Zadina.

It does when you decide to declare my position premature. If you think my position on Zadina is premature, you must agree my position on Seider is premature. That's the hole I'm poking in your logic. Therefore we must come to a logical conclusion: either assessments on young players are premature or they are not. Pick one. I tend to air on the side of open discussion and I think it's perfectly acceptable to have an opinion on any player at any age. What do you think?

8 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I agree with Zadina as a 'tier 2' player, which I already told you. Others may disagree, but that's them. What I disagree with is that tier being generalized as tradable. In my eyes, tradable and non-tradable players can be of the same quality. Age, in my opinion, is the biggest factor for trading these types of players at this time. 

Say we get a top 5 pick the next two drafts. Who do you take, and why? 

I agree that Zadina won't be traded (now) because of his age.

IDK who I take I don't really follow the draft unless I discover a player I really like. I defer to the scouts.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, Gniwder said:

I don't blame you. In your shoes I'd want to sweep this under the rug and move on too. But then again, I'd never posit such a poor line of argument.

It does when you decide to declare my position premature. If you think my position on Zadina is premature, you must agree my position on Seider is premature. That's the hole I'm poking in your logic. Therefore we must come to a logical conclusion: either assessments on young players are premature or they are not. Pick one. I tend to air on the side of open discussion and I think it's perfectly acceptable to have an opinion on any player at any age. What do you think?

I agree that Zadina won't be traded (now) because of his age.

IDK who I take I don't really follow the draft unless I discover a player I really like. I defer to the scouts.

I think that every player is different and there is no one set of rules to define all player development. An assessment of one player being premature does not mean an assessment of another has to be. That's the hole in your logic. We have different views, clearly. And while I simply try to agree to disagree and move on, you have to take your little "poor line of argument' jabs. Fine, have your last word. You clearly need it more than I do.  

By the logic you present, if I want to call your assessment of Zadina premature, I have to call out every single opinion you have of every single one of our prospects premature. The topic of conversation was Zadina. That's it. You brought in Seider as an attempt to create a hole in logic where there was none. 

If you wanna talk hockey, I'm game. But if you wanna continue this petty bulls***, kindly f*** off. 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

50 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Tampa also won a cup without Stamkos. But their depth is just insane.

I agree that we need 2-3 cornerstone pieces to be perennial contenders. But we don't need to trade every good player we currently have to get there either. AA made sense. Mantha made sense. Bert in the next year or two may make sense. Larkin doesn't only because he is our only capable center and we'd be worst than last season without him. Zadina doesn't make sense because of his age and growth. The Mantha trade worked because his production was replaced as well as getting a couple extra stabs in the draft. 

We potentially have 2 said pieces in Seider and Raymond already. We hit with the top pick in one or both of the next two drafts and all is well. 

I agree we dont have to trade everyone , id just personally trade larkin before bertuzzi . Think he’s more valuable,certainly larkin is an important piece as well but hes a very good 2c and if we ended up with beniers or someone else he’s expendable if we then strike gold with a wright/bedard .... obviously lots of if’s i just think bertuzzi is someone id prefer to show the kids the way

All that being said ... and im sure some ppl will be pissed cause some think fabbri is king s*** for some reason but we have him and vrana/stecher that will likely be flipped by the 2023 draft so it is entirely possible to keep both larkin and bertuzzi as the 2 main guys heading the kids that come along into the future 

made sense to move mantha , i said year ago and got slack for it im not like everyone else who seems to love the return , it all depends what yzerman can flip vrana for . As much as i like zadina and his upside id be pushing him down a line and going with bertuzzi larkin vrana line and  feed him minutes and hope he can go for 30-35 goal pace and flip him while his value is high , id have np already giving him a 4 year deal at 4.5 as a team getting him would pay big if he was locked up already at a good number. I think itll be a 1 year deal most likely , x2 i believe leads him into free agency

Anyways this is all just talk now , its way too soon to talk about all this stuff i think right now we need to pull a few more staal type deals . Get a couple more high picks for two s***ty players and make the team worse next season in the process . Win win

And yes i agree raymond and seider are high end pieces imo , if we can add a goalie like wallstedt who’s being touted as the next henrik lundqvist it would be a no brainer , after that 2021 draft for me is wait and see . That happens and we get lucky with wright/lambert we’re laughing ... and if god wants to make us hated by other team’s fanbases (which im cool with) he’ll send bedard in 2023 as well

47 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

I quoted you and you claimed misrepresentation. In that case it's called a contextomy fallacy in case you're wondering, but it didn't occur. And you know that because I provided the relevant context already and the statements are still contradictory.

I should highlight all the times you said my assessment of Seider is not premature over the last 2 pages. Only to now say it is. But since you'd like to concede and move forward I think we're good.

 

I'd like to reiterate that I've grouped Zadina into the same tier player as Bertuzzi, Larkin, Fabbri, and Hronek. And you guys still draw issue with me. I'm not sure if this is because you disagree that that tier is tradeable or because you actually think Zadina is a tier above.

Most teams aren't perennial contenders.

And that's exactly what I'm arguing. We need more high level picks and we need to make them count. Trading guys like Mantha/Tatar/Zadina provides that.

I agree that I prefer to keep Bertuzzi over Larkin. Larkin has the advantage of being our only center and now captain though so I may not get my wish. Hopefully we can replace center down the middle soon enough for him to be traded.

 

Im saying it wont provide it , we’re gonna have to make our early firsts count 

tatar got us veleno and mastrosimone , good adds but no big star  ... vrana is ok nothing special and we wont get a star with caps 1st ... same would happen moving larkin/bertuzzi ... zadina would provide jack s*** in the moment and would be beyond dumb to move him

Again detroit has to make their early 1sts count and maybe we’ll strike gold in the later rounds but its not a given and hasnt happened for 20 yrs

seider is our future captain and its only a matter of time before larkin’s gone

Edited April 20, 2021 by nyqvististhefuture

[Gniwder 168]

30 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I think that every player is different and there is no one set of rules to define all player development. An assessment of one player being premature does not mean an assessment of another has to be. That's the hole in your logic.

You honestly found the assessment of an older NHL experienced player to be premature, and the assessment of a younger player with no NHL experience completely warranted and not premature. The logical holes here are yours, and they're easy to point out.

Keep trying to go down this hole, I'll nip you every time.

33 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

We have different views, clearly. And while I simply try to agree to disagree and move on, you have to take your little "poor line of argument' jabs. Fine, have your last word. You clearly need it more than I do. 

We've had to descend into the muck of definitions because you can't even use words and phrases correctly. I'm sorry that you have embarrassed yourself...?

39 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

By the logic you present, if I want to call your assessment of Zadina premature, I have to call out every single opinion you have of every single one of our prospects premature. The topic of conversation was Zadina. That's it. You brought in Seider as an attempt to create a hole in logic where there was none.

BINGO. YES. That's exactly the point. Your head isn't completely filled with muck.

Either we are allowed to have opinions of young players or we are not. If you are okay with me praising young player X, you should be okay with me being critical of young player Y. Neither is more or less premature than the other. If you wanna disagree with my actual opinion of the player go ahead, but I will certainly draw issue if you want to dismiss me with the BS "this opinion is too premature" because you're absolutely intellectually inconsistent with the application of that trope.

49 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

If you wanna talk hockey, I'm game. But if you wanna continue this petty bulls***, kindly f*** off. 

You're welcome to walk away at any time if you can't handle it ya dink

14 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I agree we dont have to trade everyone , id just personally trade larkin before bertuzzi . Think he’s more valuable,certainly larkin is an important piece as well but hes a very good 2c and if we ended up with beniers or someone else he’s expendable if we then strike gold with a wright/bedard .... obviously lots of if’s i just think bertuzzi is someone id prefer to show the kids the way

All that being said ... and im sure some ppl will be pissed cause some think fabbri is king s*** for some reason but we have him and vrana/stecher that will likely be flipped by the 2023 draft so it is entirely possible to keep both larkin and bertuzzi as the 2 main guys heading the kids that come along into the future 

made sense to move mantha , i said year ago and got slack for it im not like everyone else who seems to love the return , it all depends what yzerman can flip vrana for . As much as i like zadina and his upside id be pushing him down a line and going with bertuzzi larkin vrana line and  feed him minutes and hope he can go for 30-35 goal pace and flip him while his value is high , id have np already giving him a 4 year deal at 4.5 as a team getting him would pay big if he was locked up already at a good number. I think itll be a 1 year deal most likely , x2 i believe leads him into free agency

Anyways this is all just talk now , its way too soon to talk about all this stuff i think right now we need to pull a few more staal type deals . Get a couple more high picks for two s***ty players and make the team worse next season in the process . Win win

And yes i agree raymond and seider are high end pieces imo , if we can add a goalie like wallstedt who’s being touted as the next henrik lundqvist it would be a no brainer , after that 2021 draft for me is wait and see . That happens and we get lucky with wright/lambert we’re laughing ... and if god wants to make us hated by other team’s fanbases (which im cool with) he’ll send bedard in 2023 as well

Im saying it wont provide it , we’re gonna have to make our early firsts count 

tatar got us veleno and mastrosimone , good adds but no big star  ... vrana is ok nothing special and we wont get a star with caps 1st ... same would happen moving larkin/bertuzzi ... zadina would provide jack s*** in the moment and would be beyond dumb to move him

Again detroit has to make their early 1sts count and maybe we’ll strike gold in the later rounds but its not a given and hasnt happened for 20 yrs

seider is our future captain and its only a matter of time before larkin’s gone

You need adderall

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

4 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

You honestly found the assessment of an older NHL experienced player to be premature, and the assessment of a younger player with no NHL experience completely warranted and not premature. The logical holes here are yours, and they're easy to point out.

Keep trying to go down this hole, I'll nip you every time.

We've had to descend into the muck of definitions because you can't even use words and phrases correctly. I'm sorry that you have embarrassed yourself...?

BINGO. YES. That's exactly the point. Your head isn't completely filled with muck.

Either we are allowed to have opinions of young players or we are not. If you are okay with me praising young player X, you should be okay with me being critical of young player Y. Neither is more or less premature than the other. If you wanna disagree with my actual opinion of the player go ahead, but I will certainly draw issue if you want to dismiss me with the BS "this opinion is too premature" because you're absolutely intellectually inconsistent with the application of that trope.

You're welcome to walk away at any time if you can't handle it ya dink

You need adderall

You need tammy

[Gniwder 168]

5 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You need tammy

Who's tammy?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

35 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Who's tammy?

Oh you know

[Gniwder 168]

3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Oh you know

Does she have adderall you can use to not be sucha schizo?

[Akakabuto 1,863]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tammy

 

Quote

tammy

1

or tam·mie

noun

a fabric of mixed fibers, constructed in plain weave and often heavily glazed, used in the manufacture of linings and undergarments.

 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

22 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Does she have adderall you can use to not be sucha schizo?

You’d know more than i , next time you pay her for “favors” you can ask her

[Gniwder 168]

6 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You’d know more than i , next time you pay her for “favors” you can ask her

Oh, this is a bad "have sex" joke, got it.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

18 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Oh, this is a bad "have sex" joke, got it.

Just following your lead

[Gniwder 168]

2 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Just following your lead

Have sex incel

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, Gniwder said:

Have sex incel

Ya your boring me now, bye

[Gniwder 168]

27 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Ya your boring me now, bye

It was my posts and not your lack of sex that bored you?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

10 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Zberg and Dats could make a drunken chimp on skates look good as a linemate.

PREMIUM

  

© Photo: Dan Hickling

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