Red Wings Brass Believes This Will Be An Extended Rebuild

[kipwinger 8,526]

8 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I think we could be a .500 next season tbh. Our record is only as "bad" as it is because of the big losing streak earlier in the season when we had a bunch of guys out with covid.

Agreed. I see a team that's playing good teams really tough (and beating them a lot too). The COVID thing hurt. Losing Bertuzzi hurt. But we've still hung around and been very competitive most nights. And that's with a roster with some glaring holes, even at full strength. Full credit to Blashill here too. This is still a very patchwork roster that is regularly beating the top end teams in the conference (Tampa, Carolina, and Florida) despite having a piss poor defense, abysmal powerplay, and no 2nd line center. Start addressing those issues, see continued growth from guys like Rasmussen (who's going to be a monster next year) and Zadina, and you've got a .500 team.

[marcaractac 3,963]

21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Agreed. I see a team that's playing good teams really tough (and beating them a lot too). The COVID thing hurt. Losing Bertuzzi hurt. But we've still hung around and been very competitive most nights. And that's with a roster with some glaring holes, even at full strength. Full credit to Blashill here too. This is still a very patchwork roster that is regularly beating the top end teams in the conference (Tampa, Carolina, and Florida) despite having a piss poor defense, abysmal powerplay, and no 2nd line center. Start addressing those issues, see continued growth from guys like Rasmussen (who's going to be a monster next year) and Zadina, and you've got a .500 team.

100%. I also feel Seider will have an immediate positive impact as well. Kind of hoping we keep Staal around for one more year as I think he'd be a good partner/mentor for him. 

Keeping our goalie tandem together is also another key to success next season. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

.500 or not next year, the goal here is to not turn into a perennial bubble team and like we talked about yesterday, I'm not sure where our #1C is going to come from if they play themselves out of the top of the draft. Don't want to be Buffalo either. Tough line to walk. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

.500 or not next year, the goal here is to not turn into a perennial bubble team and like we talked about yesterday, I'm not sure where our #1C is going to come from if they play themselves out of the top of the draft. Don't want to be Buffalo either. Tough line to walk. 

I mean, the team isn't gonna lose just to improve their draft lottery odds. When the team reaches a point where a top 6 center is all that is missing, that'll be the time Yzerman pursues one via trade or UFA. Not every piece of the eventual contending team is gonna come from the draft. Also, not every important piece is gonna come from the first round either. Great teams find the occasional gem in the 2nd and 3rd rounds as well.

Edited April 16, 2021 by marcaractac

[kipwinger 8,526]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

.500 or not next year, the goal here is to not turn into a perennial bubble team and like we talked about yesterday, I'm not sure where our #1C is going to come from if they play themselves out of the top of the draft. Don't want to be Buffalo either. Tough line to walk. 

That's why I think we should take the center with the highest offensive upside this year, even if that means taking someone like Johnson or Lucius with a little bit longer developmental curve. Then go out and try to start making the team better in the short term. Being in lottery hell for any more years is going to start weighing on guys like Larkin, Bert, and Hronek. It probably already is TBH. You really don't want to start losing good players because you suck all the time (ahem...Buffalo). In another thread I floated relieving Nashville of Ryan Johansen. He's not going to be a game changer for us, but he'd give us an offensively capable center for a few years who can hold down a second line.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

So do you guys think roster turnover needs to continue (see Larkin, Bertuzzi, Zadina) or do they build around what they have? I know it's not that simple and they could trade Bertuzzi, for example, but keep Larkin. The Mantha trade has some fans wondering about this I guess

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So do you guys think roster turnover needs to continue (see Larkin, Bertuzzi, Zadina) or do they build around what they have? I know it's not that simple and they could trade Bertuzzi, for example, but keep Larkin. The Mantha trade has some fans wondering about this I guess

 

In all fairness, the Mantha trade was a hockey trade that also got the Wings picks. It would have been completely different had Mantha been moved for only futures.

We could see guys like Fabbri get moved in the next couple of years. Maybe, maybe not. I think Bert is just too playoff built to part with for the time being.

Larkin is the captain and the veteran leader that will be counted on to help young players joining the team in the coming years. Other first rounders like Zadina, Seider, Raymond are likely untouchable at this point due to their age and potential. 

So I'm guessing we see a combination of some roster turnover and building with what we have. I don't foresee any trades happening that sets back the current on ice product. 

Mantha is a special case because he just didn't perform the way he could all the time and he was the oldest of our young core. He was always engaged when good things happen, but not so much during tough stretches. That combined with a can't refuse offer led to him being moved. I do not think that will become a regular thing. Sure Bert is the same age, but the guy also brings it 100% of the time and is just one of those guys who seems built for playoff hockey. 

[Gniwder 168]

Yzerman has said the only players with protection right now are Larkin, Hronek, Zadina, Seider, and Raymond.

I suspect Larkin because captaincy and only center. Hronek and Zadina because of age. Seider and Raymond because of blue chip status.

One of the issues with Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Vrana is the win now age and our other wingers coming up. We are going to have to make room on the top6 wings for Raymond, Berggren, Possibly Veleno and/or Rasmussen, and probably another we don't know about yet over the next 2-3 seasons. Does it do anyone any good to have them waste their prime years with us while we retool and rebuild? Especially when we already have players needing to develop into the roles they are occupying over that time?

Logistically I think it makes the most sense to sell all 3 over the next 2-3 seasons to keep the draft pick train chugging and also clear spots for Raymond+. These players deserve to be on win now teams anyway at their age.

It sucks because I do adore Bertuzzi and Fabbri (and Vrana after 1 game). But it's a business decision. We already have younger wingers in the pipes and selling them helps us augment the rest of the team. They'll also be past their primes by the time we are thinking of cups. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Gniwder

[Scott R Lucidi 454]

Vrana will be resigned and dealt next year. Im hoping Yzerman can turn the Mantha trade into 3 1sts and 2 2nds over 5 years.  That would be genius.

[marcaractac 3,963]

58 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Yzerman has said the only players with protection right now are Larkin, Hronek, Zadina, Seider, and Raymond.

I suspect Larkin because captaincy and only center. Hronek and Zadina because of age. Seider and Raymond because of blue chip status.

One of the issues with Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Vrana is the win now age and our other wingers coming up. We are going to have to make room on the top6 wings for Raymond, Berggren, Possibly Veleno and/or Rasmussen, and probably another we don't know about yet over the next 2-3 seasons. Does it do anyone any good to have them waste their prime years with us while we retool and rebuild? Especially when we already have players needing to develop into the roles they are occupying over that time?

Logistically I think it makes the most sense to sell all 3 over the next 2-3 seasons to keep the draft pick train chugging and also clear spots for Raymond+. These players deserve to be on win now teams anyway at their age.

It sucks because I do adore Bertuzzi and Fabbri (and Vrana after 1 game). But it's a business decision. We already have younger wingers in the pipes and selling them helps us augment the rest of the team. They'll also be past their primes by the time we are thinking of cups. 

This is why I can see either scenario playing our for Bert. Yes, he is 26. But he is built for playoff hockey. Another key is that he can very well play on the third line if need be. In the end, I feel Bert is the one "older" player that has the best chance on seeing this rebuild through. So while Bert will be on the wrong side of 30 when the team contends again, it's not like we absolutely cannot have a player older than 30 on the team. He can be that Dan Cleary type of veteran role player. That is unless an offer is made that Yzerman simply cannot refuse. 

[Akakabuto 1,751]

Mantha had the opportunity to be a part of a "veteran core" on this team together with Larkin and Bert for when its back to contending. He didn't make it.

The trade doesn't set this rebuild back or change its trajectory one bit. It was always clear that the Wings need a new young group of talent to be a contender. And Friedman is silly for speculating that this season - when the team actually have improved from the last - somehow opened the eyes for management on how long this would take. It's his job, I guess, and the Mantha trade put the Red Wings in the spotlight on trade deadline day.

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Vrana will be resigned and dealt next year. Im hoping Yzerman can turn the Mantha trade into 3 1sts and 2 2nds over 5 years.  That would be genius.

You think Yzerman somehow could get two 1sts plus a 2nd for Vrana? 

If he managed to pull that off the league would probably invent some rules to stop teams from fleecing each other. A continuation of a proud tradition of the Red Wings; making the league change the rules to stop them from dominating. 

[Akakabuto 1,751]

2 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So do you guys think roster turnover needs to continue (see Larkin, Bertuzzi, Zadina) or do they build around what they have? I know it's not that simple and they could trade Bertuzzi, for example, but keep Larkin. The Mantha trade has some fans wondering about this I guess

Not directly aimed at you,I see this elsewhere too, but I don't get why fans put Zadina in that group with the "older" guys.

For me its:

Age group 25-ish: Larkin, Bertuzzi, ManthaVrana, Fabbri, Svechnikov...

Age group 20-ish: Zadina, Rasmussen, Seider, Raymond, Berggren, Veleno...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

9 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

Not directly aimed at you,I see this elsewhere too, but I don't get why fans put Zadina in that group with the "older" guys.

For me its:

Age group 25-ish: Larkin, Bertuzzi, ManthaVrana, Fabbri, Svechnikov...

Age group 20-ish: Zadina, Rasmussen, Seider, Raymond, Berggren, Veleno...

I don't think people are putting Zadina in the group with "older" guys. They're putting him the "maybe not Yzerman's guy" category. Same could be said about Rasmussen, Hronek, etc. 

[Akakabuto 1,751]

Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

I don't think people are putting Zadina in the group with "older" guys. They're putting him the "maybe not Yzerman's guy" category. Same could be said about Rasmussen, Hronek, etc. 

Ah okay, so thats the cut off.

[marcaractac 3,963]

4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I don't think people are putting Zadina in the group with "older" guys. They're putting him the "maybe not Yzerman's guy" category. Same could be said about Rasmussen, Hronek, etc. 

Anyone who has actually watched Zadina play this season knows his spot on the team is about as safe as it gets. He's been extremely impressive despite not yet breaking out offensively. AA would likely still be in Detroit had he had the same work ethic and attention to detail on both ends of the ice. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

27 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Anyone who has actually watched Zadina play this season knows his spot on the team is about as safe as it gets. He's been extremely impressive despite not yet breaking out offensively. AA would likely still be in Detroit had he had the same work ethic and attention to detail on both ends of the ice. 

To clarify: I agree 100% with this.  

If you scroll back you'll see I'm mostly asking questions, surveying for opinions, not flying any flags. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by The 91 of Ryans

[Akakabuto 1,751]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I don't think people are putting Zadina in the group with "older" guys. They're putting him the "maybe not Yzerman's guy" category. Same could be said about Rasmussen, Hronek, etc. 

I believe Mantha and AA got traded because they didn't play the Yzerman-way, not becasue they weren't drafted by him. Agree with @marcaractac If Zadina keeps this up he is perfectly safe. I think Rasmussen right now is playing his way into Stevens heart too.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

1 minute ago, Akakabuto said:

I believe Mantha and AA got traded because they didn't play the Yzerman-way, not becasue they weren't drafted by him. Agree with @marcaractac If Zadina keeps this up he is perfectly safe. I think Rasmussen right now is playing his way into Stevens heart too.

I agreed with mac. I agree with the bolded here too. I've been banging the Rasmussen drum since draft day. 

[kipwinger 8,526]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I agreed with mac. I agree with the bolded here too. I've been banging the Rasmussen drum since draft day. 

I think Ras is going to be a monster next year. He still hasn't had a full offseason to train, get stronger, gain muscle, etc. He's been hurt and/or playing in Europe. A full summer at Barwis Methods with Larkin and Glendening and he's going to be a beast. The Michael Rasmussen that's squatting 500-600 lbs is going to be a motherf*cker to deal with.  You look at him without his pads and he's still kinda skinny for a guy his size.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I think Ras is going to be a monster next year. He still hasn't had a full offseason to train, get stronger, gain muscle, etc. He's been hurt and/or playing in Europe. A full summer at Barwis Methods with Larkin and Glendening and he's going to be a beast. The Michael Rasmussen that's squatting 500-600 lbs is going to be a motherf*cker to deal with.  You look at him without his pads and he's still kinda skinny for a guy his size.

Agreed. I love his skating now though (relative to his rookie year at least). As long as the bulk doesn't slow him down too much........

[Gniwder 168]

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

This is why I can see either scenario playing our for Bert. Yes, he is 26. But he is built for playoff hockey. Another key is that he can very well play on the third line if need be. In the end, I feel Bert is the one "older" player that has the best chance on seeing this rebuild through. So while Bert will be on the wrong side of 30 when the team contends again, it's not like we absolutely cannot have a player older than 30 on the team. He can be that Dan Cleary type of veteran role player. That is unless an offer is made that Yzerman simply cannot refuse. 

Certainly I think 1 or 2 could survive the next 3 years. Maybe that guy is Bertuzzi. It will entirely depend on the commitment to the team said player has. Said player is going to have to continue to work hard and want to be here through the bad times. I don't think most player want to wait until they are in their 30's to start realistically competing. But maybe 1 of them bleeds red enough to do this. We'll see.

We've already watched AA and Mantha prove themselves with big seasons, only to take their foot off the gas the next season when the team doesn't improve. IDK how much of that is intentional on their parts.

48 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

To clarify: I agree 100% with this.  

If you scroll back you'll see I'm mostly asking questions, surveying for opinions, not flying any flags. 

Coward. Where are the hard uncompromising opinions derived on limited information that LGW expects?

[kipwinger 8,526]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Agreed. I love his skating now though (relative to his rookie year at least). As long as the bulk doesn't slow him down too much........

I think his skating looks great this year. A week or so ago he jumped up into a 2 on 1 and I was super impressed. I think he needed more leg strength TBH. I suspect his skating will only improve as he gets a stronger lower body.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think Ras is going to be a monster next year. He still hasn't had a full offseason to train, get stronger, gain muscle, etc. He's been hurt and/or playing in Europe. A full summer at Barwis Methods with Larkin and Glendening and he's going to be a beast. The Michael Rasmussen that's squatting 500-600 lbs is going to be a motherf*cker to deal with.  You look at him without his pads and he's still kinda skinny for a guy his size.

He better be.  He's been a huge disappointment.  For a top 10 pick you expect a better return.  

[kipwinger 8,526]

Just now, GMRwings1983 said:

He better be.  He's been a huge disappointment.  For a top 10 pick you expect a better return.  

I definitely don't think he'll ever live up to that pick, at least not offensively. And when you consider some of the guys drafted after him it will always sting a little bit. But with that said, if he ends up scoring 15-20 goals and 40ish points while being a beast defensively (a la Martin Hanzal) he'll be a guy who can really help this team win, which is all I give a damn about.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

To clarify: I agree 100% with this.  

If you scroll back you'll see I'm mostly asking questions, surveying for opinions, not flying any flags. 

Oh no worries, I was mostly just taking a jab at Zadina haters hahaha

37 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

We've already watched AA and Mantha prove themselves with big seasons, only to take their foot off the gas the next season when the team doesn't improve. IDK how much of that is intentional on their parts

While true, at least with Bert, he has been good over multiple seasons and is not just riding on one facade of a breakout year haha