2024 Draft

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

1 hour ago, town123 said:

Since we'll probably be drafting in the 20's range starting next year, I hope SY takes a shot at someone he loves that falls to 6-8 range.    

The SCAM is known to trade up in drafts.  Good chance this happens.

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

The SCAM is known to trade up in drafts.  Good chance this happens.

I think you're on to something here

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

Friedman says Buffalos 1st is also in play

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

2 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Friedman says Buffalos 1st is also in play

Only problem is that Buffalo looks EXACTLY like our organization. They need the same things we need, and they have the same things we have.  Berggren is really the only piece that I think we could maybe get some interest from them with.   

[Axl Foley 334]

On 6/5/2024 at 7:48 AM, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

 

2 contradicting statements.

As rare as it is Im not saying teams dont make trades in round 1 Im saying they dont gamble and trade back when the player they really like available at there pick.

How could they possibly know who to spend the most time scouting? lol I dont know maybe based on there own scouting staff that put in Xx more hours watching these kids most 2-3 years leading up to there draft year. Teams dont base who theyr gonna scout on public rankings. Im sure they look at them just to make sure theres no major outliers in which case they might circle back and have another look but they def dont base any sort of opinion on players based on the public.

Not if both happen. Which they do.

You arent paying attention. I never said to trade back if the guy you really want is available. I said if you think you can gamble and get a guy you like, or if there are a few guys you like and you know you can still get one by trading down and still acquiring other assets. That is literally what teams are doing when they trade down.  Saying "they don't gamble and trade back"...yes, they do. By using your logic, Kotkaniemi and Hayton happen.

Sure. So the NHL's Central Scouting is just a charity for unemployed scouts then.

[Axl Foley 334]

On 6/5/2024 at 7:57 AM, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

What do Craig Button or Bob McKenzie or anyone else have to do with Steve Yzerman and the Red WIngs org? Nothing. For all we know Yzerman had Danielson as the 5th best prospect in the draft, he slipped to 9, and didnt like any of the other players you mentioned. Why would he take a risk losing that player which he most def would of for another mid asset. This team has arguably the deepest farm system in the league but still lacks elite talent. We need quality not quantity. Yzerman shouldnt even consider trading back at this point. If anything package our 1st, 2nd, prospect to move up and get another top 10 pick.

I was replying to a comment about how no one was surprised that Nate went 9th and listed multiple reputable sources that most certainly would have been surprised. Believe it or not, there are "surprises" at every draft. And those surprises are based on where players are drafted vs projections. Its not really that complicated.

Why would any GM? And yet they do, right? They take the risk because they think they can get the most by doing so. Which is literally the point of any managerial gamble: trade, signing, or draft pick.

[Axl Foley 334]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:29 PM, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Yup, I read your post. If you would care to read mine, he was ranked higher than 9 as well. So you're incorrect about Danielson being a reach at 9. 

See below

X4 Euros went ahead of him. 

Selection bias. Try reading more than 2-3 draft opinions. Pronman is a pretty huge voice in the draft community that you conviently ignored. He had Danny as top 5. 

If its pick #9, but your next draft target isn't projected to go to till the 2nd round, it makes sense to trade down. 

If it's pick #9, and your next draft target is ranked 5-16, you take your guy. 

Make sense?

Selection bias? I listed literally the 1st 3 search results I found in my first post about it. All of them had him lower than 9. I didn't even have to try hard. Are you suggesting I search out every available mock draft/ranking? That's ludicrous. I even looked up Central Scouting, Button, and McKenzie after the fact, and they still backed up what I said. It's not selection bias if I am not intentionally leaving any out. Selection bias would be picking one guy to support your argument while ignoring 5 others of equal value that don't.

I thought no one paid attention to draft rankings.

[Axl Foley 334]

14 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

The SCAM is known to trade up in drafts.  Good chance this happens.

 No he isn't. In 13 NHL drafts where Yzerman had at least one 1st round pick, he has NEVER traded up with his first pick. He has stood pat 12 of those drafts and traded down once to acquire more picks. 15th overall is his first pick. 0% in past drafts is not a "good" chance he trades up with that pick this time around.

In the 3 drafts where he had 2 1st rounders, he traded up once (Cossa) and stood pat twice. Even when he has a 2nd pick in the first round, it is still only a 33% chance he trades up with that 2nd pick. And the 1 time he did it, he had multiple picks in other rounds to use to do it, a luxury he does not have this year. Yzerman only has 1 pick in each of the first 6 rounds. Guess how many 1st round picks he has this draft?

So out of 16 overall 1st round picks in 14 drafts, Yzerman has traded up only once. That is a whopping 93.5% of the time he stands pat or trades down.

And he has NEVER EVER traded his 1st pick to move UP. 

So, how exactly is he known for doing this?

Edited June 7, 2024 by Axl Foley

[kipwinger 8,756]

So what’s up with you guys tonight?

[stephen-gregory-yzerman 133]

7 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

Not if both happen. Which they do.

You arent paying attention. I never said to trade back if the guy you really want is available. I said if you think you can gamble and get a guy you like, or if there are a few guys you like and you know you can still get one by trading down and still acquiring other assets. That is literally what teams are doing when they trade down.  Saying "they don't gamble and trade back"...yes, they do. By using your logic, Kotkaniemi and Hayton happen.

Sure. So the NHL's Central Scouting is just a charity for unemployed scouts then.

Keep telling yourself that Yzerman coulda traded back and still got his player. That just isnt reality. If Yzerman thought he could trade back and still get Danielson or Kasper, Edvinsson, Raymond, Seider he wouldv. He didnt tho because he knew there was a high chance he wouldnt get his guy.

You actually think NHL teams rely on NHL central scouting to compile there list? lol

7 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

I was replying to a comment about how no one was surprised that Nate went 9th and listed multiple reputable sources that most certainly would have been surprised. Believe it or not, there are "surprises" at every draft. And those surprises are based on where players are drafted vs projections. Its not really that complicated.

Why would any GM? And yet they do, right? They take the risk because they think they can get the most by doing so. Which is literally the point of any managerial gamble: trade, signing, or draft pick.

You think people should be surprised because some had him projected a few spots lower? a surprise is when a player most didnt have ranked in the 1st round goes top 10 not a player some had top 10 others had just outside. Ya there are surprises at every draft Danielson wasnt one of them. Seider was and Yzerman still knew he couldnt risk trading back or hed lose his guy.

Gms trade back when they dont have any players they like in that range or have multiple players they like in that range not when they have 1 player they have ranked higher then anyon else. Its not that hard to understand.

[town123 234]

7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

So what’s up with you guys tonight?

Couldn't make it to the Michigan Central re-opening event, but saw it televised.    The builing looks incredible inside and out.  The music was okay and altogether I think everyone had a fun night out.   I'm sure you can find pix and vids if you're interested.    Good on Detroit.

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

13 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

Selection bias? I listed literally the 1st 3 search results I found in my first post about it. All of them had him lower than 9. I didn't even have to try hard. Are you suggesting I search out every available mock draft/ranking? That's ludicrous. I even looked up Central Scouting, Button, and McKenzie after the fact, and they still backed up what I said. It's not selection bias if I am not intentionally leaving any out. Selection bias would be picking one guy to support your argument while ignoring 5 others of equal value that don't.

I thought no one paid attention to draft rankings.

 

On 6/4/2024 at 12:10 PM, Axl Foley said:

There isn't any of his picks he for sure could have gotten later. That is part of the gamble.

But I can say that I did not see one mock draft that had Danielson going to Detroit at 9. Saw him going anywhere from 10 to 16.

Also he was not ranked in the top 10 of any prospect list that I saw. Elite Prospects ranked him at 13, Hockey News 22, Sportsnet 19. 

Danielson could arguably have been had later if SY traded down. A risk? Yes. But that is what the draft is.

You literally selected only the mock drafts that had him low, and then used that as the premise of your argument. 

I don't care how many mocks you read. I'm telling you your premise is wrong, because you selected a narrow amount of information to base it on.

"I thought no one paid attention to draft rankings."

Ummmm... I do? Because I'm a fan... not a scout of an NHL team? 

13 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

Sure. So the NHL's Central Scouting is just a charity for unemployed scouts then.

I literally detailed what it is to you, and why it exists, already. 

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

13 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

 No he isn't. In 13 NHL drafts where Yzerman had at least one 1st round pick, he has NEVER traded up with his first pick. He has stood pat 12 of those drafts and traded down once to acquire more picks. 15th overall is his first pick. 0% in past drafts is not a "good" chance he trades up with that pick this time around.

In the 3 drafts where he had 2 1st rounders, he traded up once (Cossa) and stood pat twice. Even when he has a 2nd pick in the first round, it is still only a 33% chance he trades up with that 2nd pick. And the 1 time he did it, he had multiple picks in other rounds to use to do it, a luxury he does not have this year. Yzerman only has 1 pick in each of the first 6 rounds. Guess how many 1st round picks he has this draft?

So out of 16 overall 1st round picks in 14 drafts, Yzerman has traded up only once. That is a whopping 93.5% of the time he stands pat or trades down.

And he has NEVER EVER traded his 1st pick to move UP. 

So, how exactly is he known for doing this?

Traded up to get COSSA.  Traded up to get ASP.  He's making a habit of trading up.  Hell, last year - he traded up to get (3) 2nd round picks in a row.  He only used 2 of them, but he had them.  It's one of his hallmarks now, to be honest.

[diehardredwingsfan58 164]

Looks like Jacob Markstrom to the Devils is back on.

And probably Linus Ullmark to Carolina could be a thing as well.

Eric Tulsky to trade Jake Guentzels right for a mid pick.

 

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

2 minutes ago, diehardredwingsfan58 said:

Looks like Jacob Markstrom to the Devils is back on.

And probably Linus Ullmark to Carolina could be a thing as well.

Eric Tulsky to trade Jake Guentzels right for a mid pick.

 

Do you want to see us do anything for goaltending?  I don't.  I want to see us move up in the draft to take a D+1 NHL ready top 6 forward.  I think we need to make that happen no matter how many future draft picks it takes.  I'd be willing to part with two 1sts and two 2nds in the next four drafts to move into a position where we could draft Iginla.  

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

6 hours ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Keep telling yourself that Yzerman coulda traded back and still got his player. That just isnt reality. If Yzerman thought he could trade back and still get Danielson or Kasper, Edvinsson, Raymond, Seider he wouldv. He didnt tho because he knew there was a high chance he wouldnt get his guy.

You actually think NHL teams rely on NHL central scouting to compile there list? lol

You think people should be surprised because some had him projected a few spots lower? a surprise is when a player most didnt have ranked in the 1st round goes top 10 not a player some had top 10 others had just outside. Ya there are surprises at every draft Danielson wasnt one of them. Seider was and Yzerman still knew he couldnt risk trading back or hed lose his guy.

I don't think Seider at 6 was as much of a surprise to teams, that it was to fans and the media. 

The DEL isn't a league teams focus on scouting heavily. Maybe a team has a German born amatuer scout on staff, but up till today I've never heard of one. Andersson I know spends at least the first half of the season at home scouting Sweden. Not until late in the year does he start venturing out to view the other countries prospects, like Finland, Russia, Czechia etc... I assume most scouts do something similar and Germany is probably a last stop low priority country. 

My guess is this is why the Seider selection came out of nowhere for the media. I didn't even know who he was until about a month before the draft, but when I did start finding out, I was like oh damn this kids got stud written all over him. 

So im doubting the media had up to date info on Mo. And that's yet another example of teams not using McKenzie and CSS to draft their players lol. Friggin CSS had Mo ranked as the 6th european skater... guys ahead of him haven't even made the league yet and he's at 250 games played already. Great work by the scouts who couldnt get a job from a Pro or Junior team over there at CSS. Real reliable stuff I can use for drafting.

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

6 hours ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Gms trade back when they dont have any players they like in that range or have multiple players they like in that range not when they have 1 player they have ranked higher then anyon else. Its not that hard to understand.

Or they have several guys at the same rank. Like if you have 20 guys tied for what you think is the 40th best player, might be smart to trade down and get a buncha picks in the 35-50 range. 

But I think we're going to be trading up. Yzerman is kinda known for that. 

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

5 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Or they have several guys at the same rank. Like if you have 20 guys tied for what you think is the 40th best player, might be smart to trade down and get a buncha picks in the 35-50 range. 

But I think we're going to be trading up. Yzerman is kinda known for that. 

The one thing you can't knock the SCAM for is his drafting prowess, right?  He does what must be done.

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

25 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

The one thing you can't knock the SCAM for is his drafting prowess, right?  He does what must be done.

Youn mean Kris Draper?

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

3 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Youn mean Kris Draper?

Who's Youn Mean?

[Jimmybigrigs69 370]

28 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Who's Youn Mean?

Stop

[Axl Foley 334]

On 6/7/2024 at 8:18 PM, Scott R Lucidi said:

The one thing you can't knock the SCAM for is his drafting prowess, right?  He does what must be done.

Did you see his 1st round picks in Tampa? They were mostly garbage.

 

22 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Who's Youn Mean?

The Asian girl in the apt downstairs he talks about banging but has no real shot.

Edited June 9, 2024 by Axl Foley

[diehardredwingsfan58 164]

On 6/7/2024 at 2:27 PM, Scott R Lucidi said:

Do you want to see us do anything for goaltending?  I don't.  I want to see us move up in the draft to take a D+1 NHL ready top 6 forward.  I think we need to make that happen no matter how many future draft picks it takes.  I'd be willing to part with two 1sts and two 2nds in the next four drafts to move into a position where we could draft Iginla.  

No? We need to re-vamp our D, I'm quite comfortable going with what we have for another season, Shayna Goldman of the Atlantic says we're the front runners to bring Matt Roy home. He should help our 2nd pairing RHD tremendously Yeah move up for Berkley Catton would be great bring in another Top 6 RW if we're unable to re-sign Patrick Kane

[Axl Foley 334]

On 6/7/2024 at 2:01 PM, Scott R Lucidi said:

Traded up to get COSSA.  Traded up to get ASP.  He's making a habit of trading up.  Hell, last year - he traded up to get (3) 2nd round picks in a row.  He only used 2 of them, but he had them.  It's one of his hallmarks now, to be honest.

He didn't trade up to get ASP.

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

29 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

He didn't trade up to get ASP.

He certainly traded to get that pick.