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Ally

Member Since 23 Aug 2011
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#2302125 The truth of our decline.

Posted by number9 on 18 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.


Good lord, we were consistently among the top 3 teams the first half of the regular season till injuries plagued us during the second half and playoffs. And people like you take for granted that WE MADE THE PLAYOFFS....For pete's sake most of teams who DIDN'T make the playoffs are not going to be rebuilding. Why in gods name would we???? Guess What? Since 2009 we have been RELOADING...Kennys been waiting for the right FA's to hit the market....Farms been gettin riper and riper...We've allowed Helmer and Abby to fully replace Drapes and Maltby...Ericsson and Filppula are breaking out.....Basically the point is your thinking way too much in the short term.... We are not going to win every year....But we are going to be competitive EVERY YEAR. We run a system that allows us to do this and NOT have to rebuild. You'd think 16 years would enough be for people to realize this but apparently not. I swear sometimes I think you guys just want to see headliners like RNH and Landeskog come to this team and that's it.

The numbers he "threw in our faces" were completely skewed to his point. We have some of the best numbers in the league. There is not even much I can say about that because they speak for themselves. Our numbers were still better than most this year and it was A down year. Emphasis on the A in "a down year".

I'm all for a reality check. The team needed one and think the best thing that could have happened was us going out in the first round. Kenny got a little wake up and the players got a little wake up. Now lets take that reality check, add some depth this off season, and play like we want it. If we add Parise or Suter this off season (let alone both) I will feel baddddd for the other teams in the league lol. Those would be 2 HIGH caliber players added on to an already HIGH caliber team.....But good god sir this not a time to rebuild or even think about rebuilding...Unless somebody completely screws stuff up we won't be rebuilding for a longggg time.....reality checks are good but PANICKING IS NOT....at least act like u have some composure

I think you are mostly correct, but until they don't make the playoffs and/or accumulate 100 points in the regular season, the dynasty is still intact, although it's power is clearly waning.

The Wings need an infusion of youth and talent in the top 6. I think any Wings fan should be able to see that.


AGREED....and it's coming (Nyquist, Smith, Andersson, the rest of our stacked farm, not to mention the various FA's we are seeking) we just have to be patient is all. Can't win it all every year boys.


#2302094 The truth of our decline.

Posted by centcougar07 on 18 May 2012 - 04:41 PM

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.


#2302093 The truth of our decline.

Posted by number9 on 18 May 2012 - 04:36 PM

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
--------------------------------GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts

Zetterberg--32-------------75 92 358 77 73 309 74 70 309 80 80 306 82 69 267

Datsyk----34---------------- 82 97 264 81 97 248 80 70 203 56 59 137 70 67 164

Franzen----33---------------72 38 199 71 59 246 27 21 91 76 55 248 77 56 211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68 40 121 66 44 127 82 44 216 81 45 138 71 38 118

Cleary---34------------------63 42 177 74 40 163 64 34 140 68 46 192 75 33 199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....


Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Datsyuk (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 118%
2008/2009 = 119%
2009/2010 = 87% - down year
2010/2011 = 105%
2011/2012 = 95%

Zetterberg (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 122%
2008/2009 = 94%
2009/2010 = 94%
2010/2011 = 100%
2011/2012 = 84% - down year

Franzen (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 52% - down year
2008/2009 = 83%
2009/2010 = 77%
2010/2011 = 72%
2011/2012 = 72%

Cleary (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 66%
2008/2009 = 54%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 67%
2011/2012 = 44% - down year (nagging injury)

Bertuzzi (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 58%
2008/2009 = 66%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 55%
2011/2012 = 53%

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them :) You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Nyquist (In and out of the Top 6)
2011/2012 = 38%

Filppula (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 46%
2008/2009 = 50%
2009/2010 = 63%
2010/2011 = 54%
2011/2012 = 81% - (break out year?)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)
2007/2008 = 51%
2008/2009 = 69%
2009/2010 = did not play
2010/2011 = 50%
2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Where is crymson when you need him to knock some sense into people


#2302066 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 01:36 PM

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
--------------------------------GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts

Zetterberg--32-------------75 92 358 77 73 309 74 70 309 80 80 306 82 69 267

Datsyk----34---------------- 82 97 264 81 97 248 80 70 203 56 59 137 70 67 164

Franzen----33---------------72 38 199 71 59 246 27 21 91 76 55 248 77 56 211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68 40 121 66 44 127 82 44 216 81 45 138 71 38 118

Cleary---34------------------63 42 177 74 40 163 64 34 140 68 46 192 75 33 199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....


#2301884 Iginla

Posted by rrasco on 17 May 2012 - 04:07 PM

No chance in hell Nysquist is out, especially for an older player. Iginla would be great, but they won't mortgage the future for instant gratification.


#2301857 Iginla

Posted by Johnz96 on 17 May 2012 - 02:38 PM

Iginla is exactly what we need. He is a sniper and would provide some much needed toughness. Nash would be good too but more expensive salary wise and for compensation in a trade. There is a lot of speculation that both will be available for a trade and that the Flames will go into rebuild mode.
I would part with Nyquist, Kindl and a first for Iginla but unfortunately it will probably take more than that for a 34 yr old who is in the last year on his contract for a team that probably won't make the playoffs next yr and will probably move on after that. He could probably score 50 goals again playing with the Wings and brings a lot more of what the Wings need than either Prise or Semin


#2301656 The 10 Best Sports Illustrated Stanley Cup Playoff Covers

Posted by rrasco on 16 May 2012 - 01:23 PM

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#2301539 Kronwalled at the Worlds!

Posted by Kerjuxaxaxa on 15 May 2012 - 05:38 PM

What's the point of that hit? Sweden's winning easily. Latvia has no chances to advance further. No necessity to swing momentum here. I just don't get it.


#2300981 Patrick Kane at it again

Posted by T.Low on 13 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

He is 23 yrs old and has a job where he makes over 6 million dollars a year, and is at the top level (all star, cup winner, etc.) in his field.

I'm not necessarily a Patty Kane fan, but for pete's sake, have a good weekend drinking, Young Mr. Kane.


#2301073 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by pucktividi on 13 May 2012 - 07:33 PM

I hope we acquire some guys with very simple last names since people on this thread are having a hell of a time spelling names like Datsyuk, Ericsson, and Filppula :hehe:


...like Jarnkrok,Tvrdon,Nedomlel... :lol:


#2301074 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by FlashyG on 13 May 2012 - 07:33 PM

Exactly....only another year older and with a head coach even more frustrated with what he's given to work with.


The coach can hardly complain about Holmstrom since he's advocating bringing him back as well.

Personally I trust that Babcock and Holland know more about the players on their roster than any of us posting about them on the web.

As long as it doesn't prevent them from signing one of the big ticket FA's and it helps keep Lidstrom around another year I'm fine with Homer being brought back. I just don't want to see him on the first line anymore.


#2301039 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by Hatethedrake! on 13 May 2012 - 04:04 PM

To be fair, I think we all want him to stick around for another season. And, I mean, the guy did score against the Preds - so he's not washed up and useless. But the Cup is the number one priority, and that means Holland has to be prepared to make tough decisions, has to be willing to do things he might not want to do, might not like, if it'll help this team's chances. He has to objective, maybe even a little ruthless. The feel-good family system is nice and all, but if he's aiming to please all the players and to be Mr. Nice Guy, well...how is this team going to look any different next season?

I'm bracing myself for disappointment this summer. ("Well, you have to remember, we didn't have Helm and Eaves, they weren't available to us against Nashville. I consider healthy Helm and Eaves to be our bottom 6 upgrade....")



1. I like our team
2. When we were healthy, we were 1st overall and then injuries hit and we could not recover
3. We explored the market and had some interest in some of the UFAs but felt the prices were too high
4. I feel that Homer still has some gas left in the tank and that bringing him back for another season is the right thing to do
5. We feel that we have some kids who are ready to take that next step and be bigger factors in the success of our team
6. Having Kyle Quincey for a full season should benfit hiim and the Detroit Red Wings
7. It is a very tough league right now and we got over 100 points which is nothing to sneeze at
8. There is not much separating 15th from 1st in the West.
9. We have some cap space to use and we will wait until the trade deadline to see what our options are
10. We will look for ways to improve our hockey club but it has to make sense.


#2300208 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by number9 on 08 May 2012 - 09:27 PM

Evcery team rebuilds. The question is which is faster? Either way you do drop off. But do you wait untill everyone has retired-and get NOTHING for them? Or move them and get something back that can be part of your next upswing. We had a 15 year run that was awesome! 95-2010 there was no one better. Not even close. But now it is time to get the pieces for the next great run.
No we are very very competive. we just got beat in the 1st round. We didn't win our division. As for datsyk, is he is healthy he is going to make more than he does now. 36 year olds are guys you fill in holes with, not build around. he is already slowing down over the past five years. Injuries are becoming more common. If we could move him, yes I would. But like I said, not for prospects. I look for guys in the league just comming into their prime.


Dude your either living in fantasy land or NHL12 lol....The Wings are a dignified, respectable, classy organization. And we got that way by letting our players retire as wings. We dont get nothing for that either...players like nick give us 20+ years of dedicated loyal service. What more do you want man!?!?!? and so will players like datsyuk and zetterberg and so on. They are not common whores that get traded away as soon as they turn 35.... They are Wings. They were born Wings and they will die Wings....Even at their ripe old ages they play a 360 degree game that most "proving themselves up and coming players" will never ever achieve or even dream of. We are one of the most respected and successful organizations in all of sports because we DONT do what you are talking about. Theres a reason why in the players poll the majority of players voted that the organization theyd most like to play for is Detroit...we turn boys into legends...put rings on their fingers...then retire them and give em a job behind the scenes...its been workin since 97 and we aint changin it now....remeber 2001, 2003, and 2006? OH NOOOO BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!!! WELL NEVER WIN AGAIN WITH THESE SHMUCKS!!!! (championship in 2002 and 2008).......if ur really so worried about our Vets (not sure ive ever been worried about veteran wings) and our future, then see: Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, Andersson, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Ferraro, Quine, Callahan, Marchenko.....need i say more? our farm is stacked and were almost ready to harvest again....no need to aquire the up and coming leinos and semins of the world. Hockey is different then NHL12 friend.

at this point id like to reiterate a previous posters statement....soooooo glad kenny is running this team


#2300070 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Richdg on 08 May 2012 - 12:13 PM

The other part of this is of course when do our guys become FA's? Holmstrom, Hudler, Stuart and nicky this year, only 1 will return, maybe. Next year datsyk, Howard, Cleary, and Filppula are UFA's. Howard will double his salary or more. do we spend the big money on a then 35 year old datsyk? Cleary will be gone and Filppula could go either way. Point is as has been the case, change is coming not matter if we like it or not. the question is, how do we manage the change and remain a Cup contender? Do we resign datsyk to another 4 or 5 year deal and commit 30 million more to him, or move him now while he has value? same with Filppula?


#2299843 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Frozen-Man on 07 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

Glad you brought up Shanahan. we traded for him. The let him walk as a FA. Got nothing back for him. He stayed 2 years to long.


I'm not sure how you think that a guy that scored 40 goals and 81 points his final year with the Wings stayed too long. :blink: