I'm OK with them bringing back Gustavsson for one year. Two years would have been a problem for me. Mrazek will play 60+ games in Grand Rapids unless he is called up to Detroit for any length of time. My prediction is that he'll back up Howard in 15/16 and start 25 games, see more of an even split in 16/17, and take over the starting role in 17/18, if not sooner.
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joshy207Member Since 19 Jun 2002
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Posted by joshy207 on 07 July 2014 - 05:42 PM
I didn't say don't trade our youth. I said don't trade those specific players. In fact I made a point of saying I'm not anti-trade.
I'd be more than open to trading a combination of a high draft pick and one or two of Tatar, Pulkinnen, Backman, Ouellet for the right piece.
But it better be a damn good piece...
I see it as a slow build and "stocking of the shelves" and not a status of neutral. We're building WHILE staying competitive and that's tougher than it sounds.
We currently have the 3rd highest ranked group of prospects in the entire league AND we've got a playoff team. Only Anaheim, Chicago and Tampa Bay also have that Potential/Current talent mix.
No we're not a "legitimate contender" but with the right move or two and our young core furthering their development, we could see a serious run soon. Yes I believe that.
I don't disagree. I think it might be 2 or 3 moves, but that includes subtraction. My issue is that Holland doesn't seem to have the minerals to make those moves anymore.
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Posted by joshy207 on 04 July 2014 - 07:52 PM
I don't see mediocrity as being acceptable by management what so ever. They are doing as much building from within as they can, and the right moves will be made to fill holes on the roster when the players we do have show they can compete and are capable of making a run, while pieces will be added along the way when possible. It is just unfortunate that some UFA's said no. (which is the right way to do things in the cap era). We just don't have the luxury of lottery picks to stack the prospect pool, and because of that, developing players takes some time. And I get it, some fans aren't as patient as others. That's what 20 years of success will do to a fanbase. It becomes the expectation.
When it comes to UFA's, it isn't like they spend the last year of their contracts scouting teams to see where they should go. They just look at the big picture and see a Red Wings team that had consecutive years off a win/loss record getting worse. But when you look passed that, you see a lot of realgud, young talent that keep improving and are gradually taking on bigger roles on the team. I'd bet money that this coming season is where the upswing begins. Once that happens, this franchise will become a place players want to come once again. These things just take time.
Singing a guy like Quincey just allows Holland to buy time to get that top 4 righty this team needs without having to throw too many rookie defensemen into the fire at once on an already young squad that are still learning the game at this level. Great times are coming. The team has a nice blend of vets and kids up front. They'll soon get there on the back end as well. Howard got passed his first year on a new contract, where it is not uncommon for players to struggle. Especially with goalies. But almost just as common is the fact that these players bounce back. We also have Hank who finally got his back fixed. I feel he will have a monster season. In the end, I think a lot of people's frustrations will begin to subside this season.
The way I see it, Holland is reluctant to give the younger players a chance at all. He leaves that as the last possible resort in most cases. If the Wings hadn't gone through all the injuries in 2012/13, we would not have seen Tatar, Nyquist, or Andersson at all. It would have been Helm, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson. Lashoff wasn't in the plans, but they had to call him up and use him a lot. The Wings didn't seem to have any plans on using DeKeyser when they signed him, he was set to be GR-bound after a few days, but an opening presented itself and he had practiced well. In 13/14, we would not have seen Sheahan, Jurco, or Glendening at all, Nyquist may have been buried in the minors all season, and Tatar, Andersson, DeKeyser, and Lashoff wouldn't have had their previous experience. This summer, Almquist is leaving for the KHL without having a chance to show whether he is or isn't capable of playing in the NHL. Callahan and Ferraro are out of waiver exemptions and have 1 and 4 NHL games, respectively, on their resumes.
Lately, I think Holland's moves are the comfortable ones for him, not the "right" moves. I'll skip the misery of the 2012 off-season, but that wasn't his only shortcoming. He gave up a 2nd-round pick, a valued prospect, and a depth forward in exchange for Legwand, who turned out to be a rental... yes, they needed a center for a few games, but he ended up being a 4th-line winger as soon as those centers started to come back. was it worth both the pick and the prospect? That trade helped keep the playoff streak alive, so maybe it was worth it financially and for pride, but it gives them two less pieces with which to build. Re-signing Bertuzzi back when he did, in February 2012, was poorly timed IMO, but again, it's someone Holland was comfortable with. Keeping Cleary around last year, when he'd been awful for 2 seasons and the club had no roster or payroll space to do so, was a bad move... and now they're talking about ANOTHER contract? Keeping Quincey was a knee-jerk reaction to failing on every free agent they talked to. Yes, it "buys time" for either Holland to make another move (he won't) or for the prospect D to develop a little more, but unless there's a corresponding move where Kindl is shipped out of town, it's not a good deal.
I don't think there will be an upswing this year. A healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg should help, but if you look at it, last year, with both in the lineup earlier in the year, the Wings weren't in a playoff position. It's after Datsyuk went out that they started to make their push, and solidified that position with Zetterberg out also. They did that on the shoulders of a motivated Franzen (after someone pissed him off with a cheapshot) and the young guys that Holland didn't want in Detroit.
Unless a move, or moves, are made later in the summer, we're looking at almost exactly the same roster that lost to Boston in 5 games, struggled to score, and couldn't handle the better opponent. There are no additions, only subtractions--Legwand, Bertuzzi, and possibly Alfredsson and Cleary. How is that inspiring at all?
Other GMs also make moves just to make them and don't get any better, they just look different.
Sometimes different is all it takes. New voice, fresh blood, different look.
Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results? That's the definition of insanity.
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Posted by joshy207 on 03 July 2014 - 05:43 PM
ALL OF THEM!
Everything Holland says in trying to explain his job has become laughable. It makes him seem lost and out-of-touch, even if he really isn't. (I think he is.) The "kids/mans league", "hockey store", and not knowing why players aren't coming here really take the cake.
One thing for which I've given Holland a lot of credit is that he trusts his people (assistants, scouts, etc). He doesn't seem to be one who just does what he wants and leaves the rest of the room shaking their heads. IMO that's part of being a successful leader. However, with the gradual exodus of front-office talent, there really isn't anyone to listen to anymore... which helps explain the lack of quality moves, excluding the drafting, of course...
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Posted by joshy207 on 19 June 2014 - 08:31 PM
I think this will be like the maltby deal. I can't see him wanting to play in the ahl. And if he does play on the wings then it will be because he earned it. Maybe he busts his ass in the offseason and gets in beast mode for one last hoorah. Or maybe his body can't do what his mind wants to and he realizes it and hangs em up. His knees are pretty much shot.
This will be exactly like the Maltby situation... which was an embarrassing for the organization and the player. I don't think Cleary sees himself as anything but a viable NHLer and he'll be pissed if/when they try to send him down. Remember him bitching about being a healthy scratch?
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Posted by joshy207 on 29 April 2014 - 05:00 PM
I don't care if we lose Babcock or not, and I also wouldn't want to resign Legwand for $5M, but there is no way he will be our #4 center anyhow. Whatever, I just think since we gave up a ton (in comparison to others on Trade Day) that Legwand should at least be in the immediate future plans for a couple of seasons...but again, not at $5M.
I do not like that they say that hey are going to build the D from within...I do like our kids, but I just think we need a vet or two to bridge the gap while the kids gain experience. BUT, I do feel that Marchenko, Sproul and Ouellet are going good solid players and am excited to see their progress. If they aren't going to bolster their D with better NHL players, then they damn well better convince Howard to waive his NTC because he proved this season that he cannot make the save when needed and needs a BETTER defense in front of him, not a greener one... Damn Holland, you are going to have $20M available and you want to fill you roster full of rookies? Why save the cap Kenny, so you can acquire that player at the deadline? Give us all a break!
I think the Wings might have been a little disappointed overall in Legwand... he had some really good games when he first got here and showed some flashes after that, but for the most part, he played his way down to 4th-line wing. I can't see the Wings being excited to bring him back (even after what they gave up to get him) and I can't see him rushing to sign here and play 4th-line minutes again (even though he's a local and had wanted to be here). Had he produced more, I wouldn't have been surprised to hear that the Wings wanted him back...
And I agree with you on the D, they really do need a vet for a year or two, someone solid and responsible. I do want to see Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, and maybe the other guys, but don't want to have to rely on them just yet.
It seems like the organization is talking out of both sides of its mouth... they are going to build from within (so, YOUTH) but they expect to be much better and make a deep run in the playoffs next year. Are they "blaming" the 93-point, 8th place finish and the 5-game first-round elimination on injuries? They were a factor, yes, but this is also a team in decline. Its key players are old, half of its support players were replaced during the season, and it has no budding superstars on the immediate horizon. Yet Holland wants to keep the band together. He won't trade anyone away because he never does, it sounds like he's not going to pursue any free agents of consequence (they might throw off his 2006-based team salary structure)... does he really think everything is just roses?
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Posted by joshy207 on 26 April 2014 - 11:13 PM
I'm not saying they'll never be good. But I don't like wait and see approaches in sports. You just waste years doing that. They will learn, but we won't become a stronger team by adding even more rookies. That's the Edmonton route. Some people want to just promote from within and I think that's a bad idea. It relies on too many flaky "ifs". Nyquist and Tatar will be beasts one day, but until then they need bonafide prime year players to bridge the learning gap years. Players don't learn from losing. Datsyuk and Zetterberg didn't learn by sucking. They learned because the team struggled but had reams of talent. That's all I mean. We need to keep trying to win to avoid complacency and installing a mediocre or losing culture. See: all the other perennial middling teams. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
Here are the players between the ages of 25 and 31: Abdelkader, Helm, Kindl, Miller, Quincey, Ericsson, Eaves, Weiss, Emmerton, Tootoo, Gustavsson, and Howard. ZERO top-6 forwards, 3 bottom-6 forwards, 2 top-4 defensemen, 2 goalies, an injured free-agent signee, and 3 guys we've exiled to the minors or traded away. Not exactly a core to build a team around. There's a generation gap here--all the top players are aging, this group in the middle, and some young up-and-comers who aren't quite ready for playoff success yet. This is the price the Wings are paying for years of success, low draft positions, and trading away first-round picks. Pretty much every good team is led by guys between 25 and 31. Detroit is led by guys over 31. They'll either have to trade for top players in that age group or ride out the youth movement for another year or two before reaping the benefits of it.
Posted by joshy207 on 26 April 2014 - 07:47 PM
I think we all got carried away with the youth movement. It failed miserably when it mattered. I'd rather keep the kids that are up, surround them with capable vets and return to a one or two rookies a year tradition. We've got so many kids coming up we will have to trade some anyway. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
Young teams need to learn how to win. This year's active playoff roster only had 5 guys who played in the '08 Cup finals--Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Helm, and Kronwall. The young players have gained invaluable experience over the past season or two, they'll continue to grow and improve, and I think we're looking at a very, very strong Red Wings team in 2 years if they continue to mix in the youth and stop bringing back veterans who have nothing left in the tank. Adding a good veteran on D would help also.
The young guys haven't "failed miserably". This team wasn't all that good, wasn't supposed to beat the #1 team in the NHL, and barely made the playoffs, aided by the epic collapse of 2 other teams. The playoffs are a different animal, it takes time for them to be able to figure it out. Look at Datsyuk... 3 goals in his first 42 playoff games! He had 3 this series alone. At least now, they've gone through that experience in 2014 rather than 2015 or 2016, as the organization had originally planned.
This is the new course. The future has already begun.
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Posted by joshy207 on 07 April 2014 - 01:24 PM
Don't get me wrong, joshy, I totally get where you're coming from. I just don't think there's much of an actual organizational problem here. Maybe some issues with the way a few specific cases have been handled, but any true red flags regarding The Process?
My biggest issue is that this is the automatic way it's done. The roster is always full of veterans so there's little room for any of the prospects to even get a chance until someone gets hurt or until they've run out of waiver options. I'm sure it's because Babcock and Holland don't generally trust rookies/young players until they prove their worthiness, but maybe that's changed this year. I think it has with Babcock, and I hope it has with Holland. Not completely, I don't think they should abandon the process and rush Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Mrazek, and some of the young defensemen all up here next year, but start leaving room for some of them to get a decent taste of NHL action and go from there.
Posted by joshy207 on 07 April 2014 - 11:32 AM
I believe it works in some cases and not as well in others. Of course, pretty much everyone but the high-end draft picks will spend time in the minors, that's the way player development works. Exceptions like DeKeyser, Justin Schultz, and a few other college free agents have spent 3-4 extra developmental years in college. The key is calling them up at the right time... not rushing them and putting them in situations where they can't succeed, but not leaving them in the AHL for too long and stunting their development.
I agree on Sheahan and Jurco, neither were ready last year and probably weren't this September. Also agree on Callahan and Ferraro, who I think will be either marginal 4th-liners or AHL journeymen. But if Tatar and Nyquist were ready last year, why not have them up full-time? (It has worked out for the best, as they're the top 2 forwards playing right now, but that could have still happened had they been full-timers last year.)
My biggest case against "overripening" is Brendan Smith. Babcock declared him NHL-ready 2 years before he cracked the Wings' lineup full-time, but by leaving him in Grand Rapids, they not only allowed him to stay at a level where he was able to cover up for his mistakes because the game is slower, but they also missed out on a chance for him to watch and learn from one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, if not THE best. I wonder out loud if staying in Grand Rapids for so long actually stunted his development, and if that's why we watch him mix flashes of brilliance in with consistent mistakes. Maybe some of those mistakes became habits in Grand Rapids because they didn't hurt him or the team.
Next year, the Wings have absolutely no reason to send Sheahan down. Jurco, IMO, should stay in Detroit too. His offensive numbers don't quite indicate how well he has been playing, but that will come with a little more time and patience. Glendening can go either way, he's a nice defensive 4th-line center and pest, but doesn't provide anything offensively. Callahan only got one game to prove he's worth re-signing before he runs out of waiver exemptions, and that is not enough of a chance. If he's re-signed, they'll risk losing him on waivers if he doesn't make the roster. Same with Ferraro, who I think has less of a chance of returning. Pulkkinen looked alright in his time up here, but should start the year in GR and be the first callup for a top-9 replacement role. It's been said Mantha will have a chance to compete for a spot... let's hope there is one available for him to possibly fill.
Back to the original topic though, right now Kindl and Lashoff are pretty much the best option available for the third pairing. I think Kindl's been a disappointment, given his apparent jump forward last year and the shiny new 4-year contract it earned him. Lashoff doesn't provide much offensively, but is generally dependable defensively for a bottom-pairing guy and can play with a little edge. And yes, he's only 23, so he's still young.
Posted by joshy207 on 07 April 2014 - 02:14 AM
I would re-call Nathan Paetsch and pair him with Smith on the 3rd when E is back. He is an elite skater and has vast experience.
Def for the next 4 games, the Griffs are in their p/o we need 3 pts to make sure the game in Buffalo is a must win now.
Paetsch is not under contract to Detroit, he cannot simply be "recalled". Detroit would have to sign him first... which may be possible, I think they are sitting at 49 contracts right now.
I can't believe no one has challenged the idea that this year proves mgmt is stupid in leaving players down to "overripe." If anything, this year has proven that the Wings are correct in leaving the kids in the minors as long as they do. Everyone who is on the team now and spent time in Grand Rapids is ready to play in the NHL now, including a few that none of us expected to be playing this soon. That tells me that that they are doing the right thing, not the wrong thing.
You are contradicting yourself all over this post.
Are you saying that this year proves overripening is stupid, and you can't believe nobody has said you're wrong? Or the opposite? Because your first two sentences are total opposites.
The Wings did not think they could count on Jurco or Sheahan this year. Instead, those two players are on what has been the Wings' best line many nights. They did not expect Nyquist and Tatar to be the major contributors they have become. Last year, they did not expect to have Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, or Lashoff in the lineup, let alone contribute the way they did. Most of the other "cup of coffee" call-ups have played quite well, too.
If someone that "none of us expected to be playing this soon" is getting regular icetime and contributing in the NHL, that player was NOT overripened. That would include Jurco and Sheahan this year, and others like Helm and Kronwall who were called up full-time before they ran out of waiver exemptions.
If anything, the last two years have PROVEN that the Wings DO NOT NEED to leave prospects in the AHL as long as they do with little-to-no NHL playing time. Their AHL coaching staff is doing a phenomenal job of developing these players, and those players should be rewarded with opportunities to make the Wings' roster out of training camp and/or having chances to be called up and play regularly during the season without having to wait for the injury bug to strike.
Posted by joshy207 on 23 March 2014 - 03:06 PM
Posted by joshy207 on 09 February 2014 - 08:47 PM
Olympic Hockey will never be good again. I sincerely hope the World Cup will be revived in the next couple years. This sport needs ultra-high-level international competition.
On the World Cup subject, I'd like to see them have the top 7 countries (USA, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Czech, Slovakia, Russia) and an 8th team made up of players from all other countries, an IIHF/"World" team.