It's really amazing how many NHL guys (players, former players, coaches, etc) do things like this. Maybe not quite as much as Tortorella in this case, but it happens way more frequently than we hear about. Most hockey guys are pretty grounded, they are generally good guys, even the ones you love to hate.
We've drafted really well at forward, IMHO. Names:
That's an extraordinarily good group, considering we haven't picked in the top twenty since, what, Marty Lapointe? And our D group is nothing to sneeze at.
All of which is to say: I believe drafting is one thing we've been getting very right.
True, there's been a bit of a dry spell lately, but in the coming years that will change. My only worry is, of course, the clock that's ticking on Z and D's careers. I want as many of our young guys to learn as much as they can from those two.
All enticing prospects, yes, but for now they are just prospects. We can grade the drafting in 5 or so years after we see how many of these guys make the NHL.
This contract is subject to the Slide Rule, where it will not officially start until Mantha plays* (see below) for Detroit or Grand Rapids (or any other pro team)... so if he stays in the Q all year, the three years of his deal will be 14/15, 15/16, and 16/17. It will not count against the 50-man limit this year as long as he is not called up.
Mantha can stay in the Q with a pro contract. This happens all the time. Frk and Nedomlel were signed last year but stayed in junior.
This situation is precisely why players lose NCAA eligibility if they play in the CHL. The NCAA isn't so much concerned with the (small) pay the CHLers receive, but with the fact that amateur players are playing against players already signed to pro contracts.
*The Wings could call up Mantha and have him play up to 9 games, then send him back to junior and not have his contract officially start. Recently, the Jets did this with Mark Scheifele. The Flames are contemplating keeping Sean Monahan or returning him to junior. The last Wing I can remember who was in that situation was Martin Lapointe.
Somethings you were unaware of or simply forgot in your rant:
Tatar was in the AHL (tearing it up mind you) during the push for the playoffs at the end of the season. His last game with the Wings was 3/10.
The Wings offered Brunner basically the same offer he signed, but they offered it to him before Free Agency even began, and BRUNNER TURNED IT DOWN. Him not being here has nothing to do with Holland and Babcock!
Also the biggest reasons the Wings still made the playoffs was the TWO WAY play (yes offense and defense) of guys like Dats and Z, you know vets, and the other was the play of Howard.
Brunner scored 5 points in the month of April, you know the stretch run, in which a vet by the name of Dan Cleary had the same Point Total?
Nyquist put up 4 points in the month of April, the same as Flip, a vet who plays a two way game, yet was just let go for under performing and the money he wanted.
For contrast purposes Z had 13 points in April and Dats had 14.
So other than stating facts that are simply not facts and/or ignoring the contributions of the Vets, your post was spot on!
Your points are valid, so please don't think I'm upset, but I can answer them:
-I know Tatar was in the AHL from March on. I was disappointed when he was sent back down. I thought when he was here, he was the 2nd best forward in the lineup behind Datsyuk. Tatar made something happen on most of his shifts. Few other guys were doing that at that time.
-Brunner did turn down a decent offer, yes. That's on him and his agent. I was disappointed that Holland didn't do more to keep Brunner, but giving away the farm would not have been a smart move.
-I said ONE OF the biggest reasons the Wings made the playoffs was the play of the young guys. One of. But a big one. Had they come up and not performed, this team would not have made the post-season. As it is, they made it on the last day, by one point. The #1 reason they made it was Jimmy Howard's play. He was rock-solid from about 3 weeks in until the very end. Team MVP, no question. Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's play and leadership were also huge.
-As for the points in April, that's fine. I'll still argue that the third line of Andersson, Brunner, and Nyquist was an important part of the Wings' making the playoffs and advancing as far as they did.
-Filppula DID underperform. He has every season but 2011-12. For all his talent, he should produce more than he does. I see he's off to a good start in Tampa... it'll be interesting to see how his season goes.
-Dan Cleary has been brutal for the last two years. Brutal. He had a good, productive playoffs, yes... but he's back to being brutal so far this year.
-I did not "ignore" the contributions of veteran players, my post was not meant to be a complete and total summary of last season. I was simply pointing out how some important parts of last year's team are being pushed aside at this time for players that I feel have less to offer.
I agree I thought last year was the perfect mix of veterans and youngsters with the forward group.
Youngsters together on the third line playing against other teams third pairing D makes a lot of sense to me and it seemed to work out well.
Maybe too many youngsters on the defensive corps
It's kind of strange. I think we would benefit from more youngsters on offense, like the third line of Nyquist Andy and Tatar, but last year I think we would have benefited in the playoffs with the veteran experience of Ian White over the inexperience of young Smith.
Yes Babcock chooses opposite. Hmm.
I agree. One of the reasons the Wings even made the playoffs was because of the play of Brunner, Andersson, Nyquist, and Tatar. But it wasn't the Wings' plan to have them in the lineup (except Brunner, who was a low-risk gamble). So, as a thank-you to those players, Andersson gets saddled with 2 corpses for linemates, Tatar gets a seat in the press box, Brunner gets some black added to his uniform (NJ, where he has 3G/1A in 4GP but is a -3), and Nyquist isn't even in the league right now. Nice reward, eh?
At some point, leaving a player in the AHL becomes counterproductive. The AHL game is noticeably slower than the NHL game. There's only so much you can learn there. You cannot adjust to NHL play in the AHL. Andersson, Nyquist, and Tatar all showed very well in the NHL last year, showed they were ready for regular NHL duty. Brunner also proved he can play in the league. Why was that not good enough for Holland and Babcock?
Are there better defensive players than Brunner, Tatar, and Nyquist? Yes. But defensive awareness comes with experience, which you can only get with experience. You have to play. In the NHL. Was Yzerman a good defensive player in the first half of his career? NO. The vast majority of NHLers aren't. It's not fair to expect that from rookies.
If anyone can explain to me the benefits (short-term and long-term) of playing Samuelsson, Cleary, and Bertuzzi over Nyquist and Tatar, please, go for it!
Posted by joshy207
on 26 September 2013 - 09:44 PM
I like Mrazek. A lot. I think he's going to be a very good to great goalie, and I want to see him in a Wings uniform for a long time. But not this year. I'd rather he play 50-55 games in GR than 15-20 in Detroit. Call him up occasionally for a spot start, yes. Call him up if one of the Wings' goalies gets hurt. And if Howard has to miss any games (knock on wood!!) then Mrazek takes over and Gustavsson remains the backup. Next year, if Mrazek has another season like last year, he becomes the backup. Over the length of Howard's contract, Mrazek should play more games each year, transitioning into the starter's role as Howard ages.
I thought I would start a thread tonight for those fans who take the time to look at the big picture - rather than broadcast any anger towards one of the best GM's in the NHL just because it didn't go our way today. So before you elect Paul Holmgren as our next GM, consider that since 2007 he has signed 6 contracts to a combined 61 years and $374.5 Millon to players who are NOT currently playing for Philadelphia. (Shea Weber, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Danny Briere, Ilya Bryzalov, and Chris Pronger) you can also add James Van Riemsdyk to that list.
Here are 5 overreaction's I have been exposed to since 10 AM this morning.
1. Vincent Lecavalier - I"ll admit I was intrigued by the possibility of him centering our second line next year...but that's about it. He is 33 years old, is already too slow, and now playing with house money for the duration of this ridiculous 5 year contract. My question is: How motivated is this Stanley Cup champ, who hasn't played more than 65 games or scored more than 25 goals since 09-10, and hasn't been a + player since 06-07 going to be for the next 5 years? Sadly enough, at the same age, Johan Franzen has actually put up better all around numbers since then and who on this site hasn't posted in a "trade Franzen" thread.
2. David Clarkson - Thank God. Why does anyone want this guy signed to a long term contract at 6+ Million per season. Those figures are entering Datsyuk range, and are already in Zetterberg range. Congratulatons on your one 30 goal season Dave, but considering that Hakan Loob, Stephane Richer, Jonathon Cheechoo, Wayne Babych and Dino Cicarelli all scored 50 once... No Thanks.
3. Buyouts - There are like 1 or 2 good centres left in this years free agent crop that 29 other teams have interest in, meaning we probably aren't going to get who we want (Stephen Weiss) because someone will overspend when it's the wrong thing to do (Philadelphia). Collatarally, this means that with 10+ million in the bank and very few targets to spend it on right now, why would we burn our last compliance buyout on either Sammy or Bert who both have 1 year remaining on their contracts, when we still have 4 players signed until at least 2019. The point is, we aren't spending 10 Mill this summer on free agents meaning there is no point in getting rid of any assets simply for cap relief.
4. Lack of Team Talent? - We played Chicago harder than anyone they met en route to winning the cup, and had 3 chances to eliminate them. As of right now, the team will be adding Helm, Bertuzzi, Dekeyser, and Tatar to next years full time roster and losing Filpulla and White for sure. Brunner and Cleary remain to be seen, but can someone tell me how next years team isn't better than last years based on injuries alone, and before you take into account the development of all of our rookies?
5. The Time Is Now - Has anyone seen next years free agent class? Before you erase Vincent Lecavalier from your CapGeek thread team, and visit nhltraderumours.com to pencil someone else into our top 6 while maintaining about $14,000 in Cap Space, consider the future.
I also agree with you on Lecavalier (length of contract) and Clarkson (value of contract), but disagree on the rest.
The buyouts are all about roster space for younger players and (hopefully) an incoming free agent or two. Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Smith, DeKeyser, and Lashoff need to have regular roles on this team. Tatar and Nyquist should probably start the season on the top 2 lines, see how they do with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen. If it isn't working, then make a change. DeKeyser, if he plays the way he did in his short stint last year, will be the #2 defenseman by Thanksgiving. Lashoff is a capable, defense-first guy, something this team lacks. He should rotate in and out of the 3rd pairing.
Talent and hard work are two completely different things. Some players have talent, some work hard, and some do both. Same with teams. Detroit got a 3-1 lead over Chicago by playing hard and getting under Chicago's skin. Toews was completely neutralized for the first half of that series, and was actually a detriment to his team because of the way the Wings played against him. That was hard work, not talent, on the Wings' part. Based on talent, this team has 3 top-6 forwards and 1 top-3 defenseman right now. The rest are bottom-6 and bottom-3 guys.
The same thing was said last year about this year's FA class. And the year before about last year's class. And so on and so on. Most of the good ones will re-sign with their current teams.
Holland has exposed himself over the last few years. This team has not gotten better. Some of its draft picks and undrafted free agents are working out, some will be very good in the near future. But he has not added significant pieces in forever. He also has not gotten rid of enough "dead weight" either. He hangs on to guys for too long. He overvalues his own players and undervalues everyone else's. He seems reluctant, if not downright afraid, to make a move. One thing he does very well is work with the guys on his staff, listens to them and trusts their opinions. But how much of Holland's "magic" really was Scotty Bowman, Jim Nill, his scouts, and Mike Ilitch's wallet? The more time goes on, I think it's becoming evident that it's at least a big part of it.
With native-born players leaving for North America and the KHL already, I wonder if they feel the quality of their league is dropping and a move to the KHL would give their fans better hockey to watch. A move like this could work if other clubs follow suit and help transform the KHL from a mostly-Russian league to a full European/Asian league with teams all over the map.
The guys Holland seems to want to make available (Emmerton, Tootoo) won't get much in return, maybe a late-round pick, but would clear valuable roster space for guys who need to be here. Both would probably end up being extra forwards next year anyway.
As for free agents, Bryan Bickell (not Bickel... Stu is a Rangers' defenseman) has one good playoff run, that's IT. Plenty of guys have had one hot playoff and then disappeared. John Druce, Chris Kontos, Fernando Pisani. How about Johan Franzen? Do we want to risk having another guy like that on a big contract?
Am I the only one who absolutely does NOT want to trade Tatar? As in under no circumstances should Tatar be traded because he hasn't even had one full year in the NHL to show all that he's got? I don't understand why anyone would want to trade away so much homegrown potential.
Trade/buy out the "fat", pick up an FA or two who can play a nice supporting role on this team to Hank and Pav and keep our youth and let that benefit us in the future (a la Hank, Pav, etc).
If anything, Kenny can use some of his plethora of defensive prospects as trade bait.
I want to keep him here too. I really like what he brings to the table, especially his drive. I think he's even more motivated after being sent down to GR again, despite being one of the Wings' best forwards when he was here. IMO he has more value in a Wings' uniform than in a trade.
They didn't trust Gustavsson to play in regular season games, what makes you think they trust him in the playoffs????? The only way Howard comes out is if he dies. Even then, he might be better than Gustavsson.
Sign Datsyuk extension/restructure (7 years, 6 mil per).
Dude, none of these things can happen. Tatar and Datsyuk are already signed through 2014 and Mrazek is signed through 2015. You cannot re-sign a player until the final year of his contract. That new contract does not start until the season after the current contract expires. There is no restructuring, either. A deal is a deal until the end unless the player is bought out.