Florida Wants Hudler For Bertuzzi

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Either way, I stand by my earlier decision.

I don't want Bertuzzi on the Wings, and not because of the Moore incident.

I just have a feeling he's going to be a playoff disappointment. Especially for what it will likely take to get him.

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

You COMPLETELY missed the point. Thanks for playing.

Let me fill you in. My post was in response to one that said, because Hudler scores X amount of goals on the 4th line, he will score 2X goals on the first line. That is ridiculous to say, because should Hudler play on a 2nd line, he would not be facing rookie/bottom pairing defenseman.

No, I did not miss the point. Hudler is a ROOKIE- he is playing against the people that he SHOULD be playing against in order to develop and grow as a player. I don't see Kronwall (without Lidstrom) matched up against the top forwards in the game...Nor did I see Lidstrom matched up against perrenial all-stars when he first started playing. Zetterberg and Datsyuk weren't playing against first defensive pairs their first year in the league either- whats the difference?

[joshy207 156]

Eva, I'll agree with you that Bertuzzi went too far. He didn't need to chase Moore all over the ice, grab his jersey and throw the punch.

I don't think Moore's hit on Naslund was clean. Moore caught Naslund right in the head with his elbow, which looked to be extended. It looked dirtier because Naslund was leaning into a turn, so he was vulnerable.

Also, watching the events immediately after Bertuzzi threw the suckerpunch, you can see Bertuzzi lose his balance and fall forward, his body following Moore's to the ice. It didn't seem to me like Bertuzzi tried to drive Moore into the ice, it just happened. Also, Moore's teammates jumping onto the pile didn't help--if I remember correctly, an Av jumped on Bertuzzi right away and actually rode him into the ice, putting that much extra force into Moore's body as they all landed. We'll probably never know the actual cause for the injury.

All that said, I'd make the trade, especially if they know they can re-sign Bertuzzi.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

What Bertuzzi did was outside the bounds of normal hockey play.

we're not talking about a slapshot, or a legal hit. He skated up behind Moore and suckerpunched him in the back of the head.

That is nowhere near the same as a slapshot or legal check.

What Bert did was outside the bounds of normal hockey play?

Ulf Samuelsson, Darcy Tucker, Scott Nichol, Bryan Marchment, Claude Lemieux, Marty McSorley, Tie Domi, Bobby Clarke, etc beg to differ.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Either way, I stand by my earlier decision.

I don't want Bertuzzi on the Wings, and not because of the Moore incident.

I just have a feeling he's going to be a playoff disappointment. Especially for what it will likely take to get him.

I agree, I don't like the man for what he did to Moore (no i'm not a Avs fan).I accept you guys can disagree, but the reason I don't want him is that he was injured and hasn't had the kind of year most of you expect out of him in about 3 years now. We'd be giving up a lot to get him and what happens if we end up with a bruiser, but not goal scoring?

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

Wow, this post was off the charts...! and dense in itself.

You wish to speculate, LoL, "goals to ice time ratios"?!? Yeah, ummm....ok. Not sure if little man can handle more minutes in this level. Too much risk for him to get smashed.

If, (BIG IF) huds ever bacame *high caliber... he'd be targeted.

IMHO, I honestly don't think Huds will ever cut it in the NHL level.

...and copy & paste the post where I once mention PPGs... seriously, are you drunk or something?

I shouldn't have said "PPG"- you insulted the amount of pts that Hudler has in 70 games played- completely ignoring the fact that he sees limited ice time as an NHL ROOKIE. Look at what Hudler does in the ice time that he DOES see- 3rd best on the team as far as production/ice time goes.

Edited February 20, 2007 by ZetterBurger40

[YoungGuns1340 1]

No, I did not miss the point. Hudler is a ROOKIE- he is playing against the people that he SHOULD be playing against in order to develop and grow as a player. I don't see Kronwall (without Lidstrom) matched up against the top forwards in the game...Nor did I see Lidstrom matched up against perrenial all-stars when he first started playing. Zetterberg and Datsyuk weren't playing against first defensive pairs their first year in the league either- whats the difference?

I just explained to you what my point was. Are you seriously going to ignore it entirely? This isnt about who he pairs up with or who it doesnt. Its about the fact that saying he will score more goals with more minutes is not the case, because he will face defenders many times as talented as the ones hes faced when scoring already.

...and if you want to say that Zetterberg and Datsyuk werent matched up against first defensive pairs, thats all fine and dandy. But Hank had 22 goals and 44 points, while Datsyuk had 35 points himself.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

What Bert did was outside the bounds of normal hockey play?

Ulf Samuelsson, Darcy Tucker, Scott Nichol, Bryan Marchment, Claude Lemieux, Marty McSorley, Tie Domi, Bobby Clarke, etc beg to differ.

you just cited several players who have been responsible for some of the worst incidents hockey has seen.

McSorley, Lemieux, Marchment, Bertuzzi.

You consider the things those guys did normal hockey play?

To me many of those players are responsible for the worst, most gutless cheapshots the game has seen. Incidents that have zero place in the sport.

So yes, I consider things like skating up behind a guy and giving him a two-handed slash to the skull, or suckerpunching him in the back of the head, outside the bounds of normal play.

I guess we're watching two different games.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Look at what Hudler does in the ice time that he DOES see- 3rd best on the team as far as production/ice time goes.

...and here is exactly the bulls*** Im pointing out. Production vs ice time does not work when your ice time is all against bottom pairing defenseman. If Hudler played top 6 minutes, hed face off against guys who could easily handle him.

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

...and if you want to say that Zetterberg and Datsyuk werent matched up against first defensive pairs, thats all fine and dandy. But Hank had 22 goals and 44 points, while Datsyuk had 35 points himself.

but they were playing against scrubs, right?

...and here is exactly the bulls*** Im pointing out. Production vs ice time does not work when your ice time is all against bottom pairing defenseman. If Hudler played top 6 minutes, hed face off against guys who could easily handle him.

If Hudler weren't a ROOKIE, he would be more developed, more accustomed to the NHL game AND style of play, and would be more suited to put up pts against those very defensemen. I'm not saying that he will still be one of the top 3 producers on the team as far as pts/time goes, but I do think that he will produce.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

you just cited several players who have been responsible for some of the worst incidents hockey has seen.

McSorley, Lemieux, Marchment, Bertuzzi.

You consider the things those guys did normal hockey play?

To me many of those players are responsible for the worst, most gutless cheapshots the game has seen. Incidents that have zero place in the sport.

So yes, I consider things like skating up behind a guy and giving him a two-handed slash to the skull, or suckerpunching him in the back of the head, outside the bounds of normal play.

I guess we're watching two different games.

Exactly my point. Hockey like this has always had its place in hockey. From the days of the broad street bullies til now. It may not be right, but it still exists.

As for Bertuzzi, youll see that his name wasnt included in that list of guys. Why? Those guys were dirty from day one til the end of their careers. Bertuzzi took a real bad turn ONCE and got the worst result out of any of those guys, with the exception of maybe Samuelsson and McSorely, guys who Bertuzzi could never match up to in terms of dirtiness.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Except what Bert did was unusual for the following reasons:

Moore's hit on Naslund was clean. No penalty, no suspension. Clean hit that happened to result in injury.

Bertuzzi and other Canucks repeatedly issued threats against Moore well in advance of the game in which they were carried out.

Moore fought Matt Cooke earlier in that game, and held his own. Normally, this would be the point at which it would be 'done' in most situations. Moore hit Naslund, and he paid the price of having to fight Cooke.

Bertuzzi wasn't happy with this outcome. He wanted Moore to pay by being injured. So when on the ice together, Bertuzzi grabbed Moore by the back of the jersey and followed him around the ice, totally ignoring the play. When Moore refused t ofight Bertuzzi--having already fought Cooke--Bertuzzi sucker punched Moore in the back fo the head, knocking him out instantly. Bertuzzi proceeded to ride Moore's head into the ice, breaking his neck.

Even without the injury, that situation is an extremely rare case.

Bertuzzi, for the last time, did not ride Moore's head into the ice as you are describing it. Also, I am pretty certain that Bertuzzi did not want to, persay, injure Moore as much as send a message by fighting him. Bertuzzi was undoubtedly a hothead so when Moore refused to fight him, he overreacted. To say that Bertuzzi was aiming to injure Moore seriously is asanine and completely without any factual proof. It is a rare case, but Bertuzzi did not intend to hurt, nonetheless, break Moore's neck. This is old news anyway, I'm not really sure why it has to be brought up again and again. If Bertuzzi is healthy and can play strong and score for us, I am all for getting him in here, dirty past and all, everyone deserves a second chance.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

but they were playing against scrubs, right?

I guess so...and they put up more points in a more defensive, clutch and grab era. Kind of screws the pooch on that point about Hudler being better than Dats at his age.

If Hudler weren't a ROOKIE, he would be more developed, more accustomed to the NHL game AND style of play, and would be more suited to put up pts against those very defensemen. I'm not saying that he will still be one of the top 3 producers on the team as far as pts/time goes, but I do think that he will produce.

Okay, well THAT is much different. Being the 3rd on the team and "producing' could be a difference of 30-40 points.

At any rate, back to my original original point, I see nothing wrong with Hudlers skills. He IS a skilled guy. But hes too small and doesnt have speed which is the most important tool in overcoming severe lack of size. On a team like Detroit, thats not going to do us any good, unless the next guys to come up in the system were bona fide power forwards.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Exactly my point. Hockey like this has always had its place in hockey. From the days of the broad street bullies til now. It may not be right, but it still exists.

As for Bertuzzi, youll see that his name wasnt included in that list of guys. Why? Those guys were dirty from day one til the end of their careers. Bertuzzi took a real bad turn ONCE and got the worst result out of any of those guys, with the exception of maybe Samuelsson and McSorely, guys who Bertuzzi could never match up to in terms of dirtiness.

I don't know what player you've been watching, but Bertuzzi has and will never get the Lady Bing trophy. Call the Moore hit accidental if you want, but the guy doesn't play the cleanest game. Exaggerate your point , but to say that the Moore hit was the only thing Bertuzzi has done wrong in his time in the NHL is just a flat lie.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[SwedeLundin77 460]

I don't know what player you've been watching, but Bertuzzi has and will never get the Lady Bing trophy. Call the Moore hit accidental if you want, but the guy doesn't play the cleanest game. Exagerate your point , but to say that the Moore hit was the only thing Bertuzzi has done wrong in his time in the NHL is just a flat lie.

Sucker-punching Moore was not accidental, but Moore breaking his neck when falling to the ice was accidental since it was more than likely momentum from the fall plus 2 guys falling on him in Bertuzzi and the Colorado player that actually broke the neck. Momentum is the accidental part.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Except what Bert did was unusual for the following reasons:

Moore's hit on Naslund was clean. No penalty, no suspension. Clean hit that happened to result in injury.

Bertuzzi and other Canucks repeatedly issued threats against Moore well in advance of the game in which they were carried out.

Moore fought Matt Cooke earlier in that game, and held his own. Normally, this would be the point at which it would be 'done' in most situations. Moore hit Naslund, and he paid the price of having to fight Cooke.

Bertuzzi wasn't happy with this outcome. He wanted Moore to pay by being injured. So when on the ice together, Bertuzzi grabbed Moore by the back of the jersey and followed him around the ice, totally ignoring the play. When Moore refused t ofight Bertuzzi--having already fought Cooke--Bertuzzi sucker punched Moore in the back fo the head, knocking him out instantly. Bertuzzi proceeded to ride Moore's head into the ice, breaking his neck.

Even without the injury, that situation is an extremely rare case.

What? So since when did you have access to Bertuzzi's innermost thoughts??? The reason Bertuzzi most likely wanted to fight Moore is because NASLUND IS BERTUZZI'S BEST FRIEND. Please continue to ignore this fact.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Sucker-punching Moore was not accidental, but Moore breaking his neck when falling to the ice was accidental since it was more than likely momentum from the fall plus 2 guys falling on him in Bertuzzi and the Colorado player that actually broke the neck. Momentum is the accidental part.

That's fine, I don't care how it happened or any of that crap. I was responding to the fact that Young Gun was saying Bertuzzi made one mistake and did something dirty, but the fact is Bertuzzi isn't a clean player. That's ALL I was pointing out.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I don't know what player you've been watching, but Bertuzzi has and will never get the Lady Bing trophy. Call the Moore hit accidental if you want, but the guy doesn't play the cleanest game. Exaggerate your point , but to say that the Moore hit was the only thing Bertuzzi has done wrong in his time in the NHL is just a flat lie.

Honestly, can people here read a post without making assumptions?? Just read what I said. In no hockey world does Bertuzzi belong in that group of guys, except when it comes to the "Moore" incident. There are hundreds, literally, of guys in the NHL who, on average, are/were as dirty as Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi would never stand out for his particular dirtiness in the way the other guys did had the Moore incident never happened. Thats the point. Bertuzzi suckerpunched a guy and had the outcome not been the same, a suspension wouldve been handed out and people would say "hey do you remember Bertuzzis cheapshot on Moore" not "OMG bertuzzi is the antichrist and should be banned from the sport of hockey. Breaking necks kills. breaking necks kills. blah blah blah"

That's fine, I don't care how it happened or any of that crap. I was responding to the fact that Young Gun was saying Bertuzzi made one mistake and did something dirty, but the fact is Bertuzzi isn't a clean player. That's ALL I was pointing out.

Please state where I said "Bertuzzi made one mistake and did something dirty"

I said he "took a real bad turn" ONE time. What I would classify as a real bad turn is not a slightly high hit, etc, but a suckerpunch to the head.

Reading comprehension 101, buddy.

BTW, go to an Avs board and theyll tell you that Draper, Maltby, and Homer were/are all dirty and/or cheap players.

Edited February 20, 2007 by YoungGuns1340

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Honestly, can people here read a post without making assumptions?? Just read what I said. In no hockey world does Bertuzzi belong in that group of guys, except when it comes to the "Moore" incident. There are hundreds, literally, of guys in the NHL who, on average, are/were as dirty as Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi would never stand out for his particular dirtiness in the way the other guys did had the Moore incident never happened. Thats the point. Bertuzzi suckerpunched a guy and had the outcome not been the same, a suspension wouldve been handed out and people would say "hey do you remember Bertuzzis cheapshot on Moore" not "OMG bertuzzi is the antichrist and should be banned from the sport of hockey. Breaking necks kills. breaking necks kills. blah blah blah"

I see the light Young Gun! we should throw a parade for this poor soul and declare it Bertuzzi day. He's been through a lot and none of it it's deserved

Edited February 20, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I see the light Young Gun! we should throw a parade for this poor soul and declare it Bertuzzi day. He's been through a lot and non of it it's deserved

Thanks. This is the typical sign of somebody who has been proved wrong. They take the other persons opinion and blow it up to astronomical proportions to make themselves look better.

I have my opinion and that is that Bertuzzi never meant to break the neck of Moore. If he wanted to fight Moore, he shouldve done it face to face and I dont think anyone would say otherwise, but people do things in the heat of the moment that they often times regret. Bertuzzi was obviously regretful for what he had done and it shows in the way he is more tentative nowadays. I dont think even he can justify to himself what he did was right, but ultimately my point is that the result of "the Moore incident" was not his intended outcome and that mistake should not paint him forever as the scum of the earth, as some like to think of him.

I still think he can be an honorable guy in many cases, standing up for his teammates, and I dont think many would expect him to ever repeat anything similar to what he did, which is not what you can say about the traditional cheap-shot artists.

Edited February 20, 2007 by YoungGuns1340

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Thanks. This is the typical sign of somebody who has been proved wrong. They take the other persons opinion and blow it up to astronomical proportions to make themselves look better.

I have my opinion and that is that Bertuzzi never meant to break the neck of Moore. If he wanted to fight Moore, he shouldve done it face to face and I dont think anyone would say otherwise, but people do things in the heat of the moment that they often times regret. Bertuzzi was obviously regretful for what he had done and it shows in the way he is more tentative nowadays. I dont think even he can justify to himself what he did was right, but ultimately my point is that the result of "the Moore incident" was not his intended outcome and that mistake should not paint him forever as the scum of the earth, as some like to think of him.

Yeah, considering you're the one claiming I'm calling him the "anti-christ" and blah blah blah. Whose blowing up what?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Hudler is only 7 games behind Zetters rooking yr.. while Zetter had 43 points VS Huds 11 points thus far.

Not to mention Zetters rookie yr had to splite ice time with elite players like Hull and Luke.

If anything (to which helps proves the point) if wings and staff were confident in Huds... he'd be soaking up the ice time. We have no elite players anymore like Zets rookie yr.

Can anyone say "Boyed Deveraux" ?

Some guys i see become disappointments, or not living up to expectations

1999 - Patrick Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Brian Finley

1998 - Manny Malhotra, Rico Fata

1997 - Dan Tzachuk, JF Damphousse, Matt Zultek,

1996 - Boyd Deveraux, Dan Focht

1995 - chad kilger, aki berg

1994 - Jason Boterill, Chris Dingman, Brett Lindros, Eric Fichaud, Jamie Storr, Jason Bonsignor

1993 - Alexandre Daigle, Todd Harvey

I say unload Hoodler now before he's on a list for "Biggest Disappointments.

I wouldnt go as far to say Hudler would be a disappointment, but I do think the Wings should save the rookie roster spots for Grigs and Flip before Hudler. If the Wings had no chance of bringing over Grigs, Id probably say keep Hudler to wait and see.

Yeah, considering you're the one claiming I'm calling him the "anti-christ" and blah blah blah. Whose blowing up what?

ahh but you were a little obsessive with the "breaking necks kills" bit. I, on the other hand, said nothing about parades.

Anyways, Im done with this.

Like I said on page one, Id rather trade Hudler for Bert, than trade Hudler and a 1st for Guerin.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

I wouldnt go as far to say Hudler would be a disappointment, but I do think the Wings should save the rookie roster spots for Grigs and Flip before Hudler. If the Wings had no chance of bringing over Grigs, Id probably say keep Hudler to wait and see.

ahh but you were a little obsessive with the "breaking necks kills" bit. I, on the other hand, said nothing about parades.

Anyways, Im done with this.

Like I said on page one, Id rather trade Hudler for Bert, than trade Hudler and a 1st for Guerin.

i'm not being hypocritical, but that's fine, we're done. Kenny has proven we don't need 1st rounders to be good. Especially since they're like a early 2nd all the time. Why not throw that first and get a guarenteed goal scorer. Like I've been saying Bertuzzi is in a slump and who knows if he'll get out of it, but Guerin has been as consistant as any player in the last 10 years has

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Young Gun, all arguements aside. I hope you wont think of me as a "idiot" because we don't see eye to eye. and I'll admit, I'm not opposed to Bertuzzi being a Wing. He just turned 32 this month and if he can become the 97 point player like he was in Vancouver while bringing that hard hitting style, in my opinion, it'd be a better than the Forsberg one. I just don't know if he can be that anymore and we will without a doubt have to give up a lot.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, I'll agree with you that Bertuzzi went too far. He didn't need to chase Moore all over the ice, grab his jersey and throw the punch.

I don't think Moore's hit on Naslund was clean.

The NHL would disagree with you.

Also, watching the events immediately after Bertuzzi threw the suckerpunch, you can see Bertuzzi lose his balance and fall forward, his body following Moore's to the ice. It didn't seem to me like Bertuzzi tried to drive Moore into the ice, it just happened. Also, Moore's teammates jumping onto the pile didn't help--if I remember correctly, an Av jumped on Bertuzzi right away and actually rode him into the ice, putting that much extra force into Moore's body as they all landed.

No Av player jumped on Bertuzzi until Bert had already hit the ice. And regardless of whether Bertuzzi intended to drive Moore into the ice...Bertuzzi falling on Moore is a direct result of Bertuzzi's suckerpunch knocking Moore out. Therefore Bertuzzi is responsible for it. No suckerpunch, no fall, and no broken neck. Regardless of when the broken neck happens, if Bertuzzi doesn't cross the line and brutally assault Moore by punching him in the back of the head HARD ENOUGH TO KNOCK HIM OUT INSTANTLY, then Moore is still playing today and Bertuzzi is still a Canuck. That's what it all comes down to. Oh, and the fact that Bertuzzi threatened to end Moore's career and then followed up on that threat. It is significantly different from Samuelsson on Neely, where Samuelsson laid that same hit every almost night without ruining careers. If yo ucan show me an instance where someone else was uninjured after Bertuzzi punched them in the back of the head hard enough to knock them out, then I'll buy the argument that he's not 100% responsible for the result.