Ken Holland - 2nd best GM in the NHL

[eva unit zero 271]

To me, Holland has only had to be a great GM since Scotty left. That's 4 seasons. 1st season, lost in first round. 2nd season, lost in second round. 3rd season, lost in first round. Now Holland is starting to understand that we needed more grit and toughness on the team and that finesse is not everything in the playoffs (I.E. Bertuzzi/Calder/Markov/Franzen/Cleary signings)

The 2002 team was built by Holland. Yes, Bowman was the coach, and that factored in huge into the playoff success--the same team minus Bowman and Hasek, and plus Zetterberg and Joseph lost in the first round the next season.

You have to consider that of the 2002 team, of the 23 players who played in the postseason, Holland was responsible for the following 14 players:

Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, Larionov (reacquired), Duchesne, Chelios, Fischer, Olausson, Datsyuk, Devereaux, Williams, Krupp, Slegr, Legace. Another 5 (McCarty, Draper, Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom) pre-dated Bowman.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Good grief, you've got to be one of the biggest trolls I've seen roll by here. Got anything good to say about the team?

Holland has picked up great players. Even if they mostly haven't gotten us anywhere, most all the analysts seem to think that he's doing a better job than most or all other GMs.

Oh, and yes--Holland doesn't coach the team, or determine how well they play.

A troll is someone who comes into threads having no point or valid argument to make, just saying that so and so sucks or whatnot. The difference between me and them is that the guys i say suck actually do! Ok, anyways...instead of whining about my post how about making a rebuttle. You can start by explaining how Holland was the great architect of 3 Cup teams when he was only GM for 2 (and inherited a championship team which is another debate). Or how Schneider was the right piece for a puzzle that has yet to accomplish anything in the postseason. Pointing out fallacies in an article is not being trollish. Hell, i didnt even criticize Holland nor Schneider in this thread! Just bringing up the facts. The only one to criticize someone in this thread was...well....YOU!

Yes, i do post negative things quite a bit. Ive been critical of the team for a few years now so its just my nature to do so. I do have good things to say from time to time, but overall i like to give opposing viewpoints.

I figured as much, but I still don't see how an opposing viewpoint (or a "pessimistic" one) equates being labeled a troll.

And wait a minute.... Wasn't the Murphy deal one of Bowman's, anyway? Holland, I'm sure, had input, but Bowman was calling the shots then.

Yep, you are correct Matt! Holland himself said the acquisition of Murphy was, i quote, "a Bowman trade". He said this in a pregame interview with Ken Daniels, im assuming it was the game on deadline day. So thats yet another fallacy in the article by SI. (thanks for defending my stance by the way! )

I apologize for bringing up more factual information.

[WhiteLightning91 105]

You have to consider that of the 2002 team, of the 23 players who played in the postseason, Holland was responsible for the following 14 players:

Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, Larionov (reacquired), Duchesne, Chelios, Fischer, Olausson, Datsyuk, Devereaux, Williams, Krupp, Slegr, Legace. Another 5 (McCarty, Draper, Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom) pre-dated Bowman.

You gotta be joking me bringing up anyone else other than Hasek, Hull, or Robitialle.

As for Larionov, I don't know what you're trying to prove there since Holland was in charge when he let him leave for Florida. Hakan Andersson is responsible for Datsyuk and Fischer. Williams played only 9 games in the playoffs in 2002. Krupp played in 8 games in the regular season and a whopping 2 in the playoffs. Jiri Slegr played in a jaw dropping 1 game. Manny Legace? You think Holland should get props for that team because he is responsibile for Manny Legace? He played in 1 game those playoffs. As for the ever so dominant scoring machines Duchesne, Olausson, and Devereaux...they each wound up with a huge playoff total of 6 points each...

Come on...I gave Holland credit for Hasek, Hull, and Robitialle, even though they were made possible by Illtchs' checkbook. But I'm not sure what your point was in brining up the other 11 since 2 he wasn't responsible for, 1 he let walk as an UFA, and the others didn't mean diddly poo in the playoffs.

McCarty, Draper, Fedorov, Yzerman, and Lidstrom: ALL MADE POSSIBLE BY JIMMY DEVELLANO!!!

Edited March 16, 2007 by WhiteLightning91

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Exactly what part of his post would make you come to the "troll" label? Just because Lou isn't "Joey Blue Skies" about every player and/or move the front office has made doesn't make him a troll.

What about the point he raised? He was critiquing the SI piece that labeled Schneider a "right move, right time" and compared him to Murphy -- a guy we got for futures and was integral in the 97 and 98 Cups. How exactly does Schneider compare to that, other than gawdy regular season offensive numbers?

I hate going against ya Crym, but hey- Lou may be a permanent downer on the boards, but he's not really a "troll". Jerk? Yeah, sure, I'll give you that. But he's right sometimes... no matter how much we all wish he was wrong.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I hate going against ya Crym, but hey- Lou may be a permanent downer on the boards, but he's not really a "troll". Jerk? Yeah, sure, I'll give you that. But he's right sometimes... no matter how much we all wish he was wrong.

Only right just sometimes? I thought for sure i was posting right at at least a 85% clip. Damn..

Lidstrom is a great player

Ok there...im positive!!

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Its not even about that. Im disputing the calling of Schneider being "the right piece at the right time". What sense does that make? Theyve lost in the 2nd and 1st round since acquiring him! Thats all im saying.

Not to pile on the Schneider hate, but we acquire Matt at the deadline in '03, so that makes it three early exits. Who's not doing their research now, Lou?

Edited March 16, 2007 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Only right just sometimes? I thought for sure i was posting right at at least a 85% clip. Damn..

Lidstrom is a great player

Ok there...im positive!!

Haha, I'm also positive Lids is a great player

[Matt 1,048]

Not to pile on the Schneider hate, but we acquire Matt at the deadline in '03, so that makes it three early exits. Who's not doing their research now, Lou?

Repressed memory?

[clutchngrab 12]

Lets not forget he got Lang for basically nothing when he was close to the top of the league in scoring. Sure he has made some mistakes, but in the cap era it is hard to fault his moves so far. He has kept our core assets and not sacrifices the future as well as upgraded this team to be legit cup contender this spring. What more can you ask for? THe Bertuzzi gamble: brilliant. The Williams trade: Brilliant. The Zetterberg signing: brilliant. The only downsides are Sammy and Lilja signed to inflated contracts, but that can be rectified if need be.

[Henkka 0]

What is this "acquiring Murphy" and "three stanley cups" -crap? Holland had nothing to do with the Murphy-trade, because he wasn't a GM then. Just since the summer on 1997.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

Kenny drafted the offensive cornerstones of our team in Hank and Dats (6th and 7th rounders). Without Broduer, their team is nothing. Without playing the trap, their team would hardly have the success they've had. I look at their team, every player on their team that is decent that they drafted is a 1st-3rd rounder. The Wings trade their picks and still find great players in the draft. Could someone please explain why this guy should be ranked higher than Kenny? I don't think it's that hard to be good when you have arguably the best goalie of alltime.... Also, personally, I think playing the trap is one of the most shameless/talentless ways to get your club winning

Edited March 16, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[arnoldbuck 0]

I'd put Burke ahead of Lowe.

Strongly Agreed. I thought Burke would be top 3. He brought Van out of the depths and gave them a competator. And now he has done the same for the Ducks.

Kenny drafted the offensive cornerstones of our team in Hank and Dats (6th and 7th rounders). Without Broduer, their team is nothing. Without playing the trap, their team would hardly have the success they've had. I look at their team, every player on their team that is decent that they drafted is a 1st-3rd rounder. The Wings trade their picks and still find great players in the draft. Could someone please explain why this guy should be ranked higher than Kenny? I don't think it's that hard to be good when you have arguably the best goalie of alltime.... Also, personally, I think playing the trap is one of the most shameless/talentless ways to get your club winning

You know what I find funny about the trap, is I live in western Canada, and everytime I am watching a Canuck, Oiler or Flames game, and those teams are winning by playing the trap ... the Announcers call it "Now thats some strong solid defensive hockey!!!" Yet of Detroit ... or any american team for that matter does a trap, even for a few minutes, the same announcers jump on it "This is EXACTLY what the New NHL is trying to get away from, Damn Trap-Style Hockey and these clubs are bringing it right back!!!"

Haha, I know announcers are always going to be somewhat biast to the teams that cut their paychques, but come on, seriously, call it for what it is. If your clubs are going to win by the trap, don't make up fancy words to disguise it.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I thought the Steve Duchesne signing was a good deal when Holland did it. For a man at the tail end of his career, he played pretty good in the time he spent here.

Holland does get credit for what he did this year with Bert/Calder, and what he did in 2002 with Hasek, Hull, Robitialle and others. But I don't think the Larry Murphy comparison was very good, considering the point that was already made being that he wasn't even GM yet.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[eva unit zero 271]

You gotta be joking me bringing up anyone else other than Hasek, Hull, or Robitialle.

As for Larionov, I don't know what you're trying to prove there since Holland was in charge when he let him leave for Florida. Hakan Andersson is responsible for Datsyuk and Fischer. Williams played only 9 games in the playoffs in 2002. Krupp played in 8 games in the regular season and a whopping 2 in the playoffs. Jiri Slegr played in a jaw dropping 1 game. Manny Legace? You think Holland should get props for that team because he is responsibile for Manny Legace? He played in 1 game those playoffs. As for the ever so dominant scoring machines Duchesne, Olausson, and Devereaux...they each wound up with a huge playoff total of 6 points each...

Come on...I gave Holland credit for Hasek, Hull, and Robitialle, even though they were made possible by Illtchs' checkbook. But I'm not sure what your point was in brining up the other 11 since 2 he wasn't responsible for, 1 he let walk as an UFA, and the others didn't mean diddly poo in the playoffs.

McCarty, Draper, Fedorov, Yzerman, and Lidstrom: ALL MADE POSSIBLE BY JIMMY DEVELLANO!!!

Draper and McCarty are Bryan Murray, actually.

Not sure where you're goingwit hthe 'scoring machinee' comment on Duchesne, Olausson, Devereaux. Duchesne and Olausson were not being counted on for their offense, but for reliable defensive performances, which they delivered big time. Devereaux provided speed and a good forecheck and meshed well with Dats and Hull. He was never supposed to be a big scorer on that line.

As far as crediting Hakan Andersson for Fischer and Dats...if you do that, you have to credit Holland for all the guys he scouted. Bowman had Hakan Andersson as well. How many good Europeans did Bowman draft? The answer is one, Tomas Holmstrom. The second best Euro drafted by Bowman was Yuri Butsayev. So that's oneguy who was able to make the roster. Holland has drafted Fischer, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hudler, Filppula, Kopecky, Franzen as guys who have made the NHL roster. And there are more coming who he's already drafted.

Andersson is a great scout, but you have to remember the GM is the guy who ultimately makes the decision, and with basically the same scouting staff, Holland has drafted very well where Bowman did not.

Strongly Agreed. I thought Burke would be top 3. He brought Van out of the depths and gave them a competator. And now he has done the same for the Ducks.

Vancouver succeeded early during Burke's tenure mainly on the strength of players Keenan brought in....just FTR.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I thought the Steve Duchesne signing was a good deal when Holland did it. For a man at the tail end of his career, he played pretty good in the time he spent here.

Holland does get credit for what he did this year with Bert/Calder, and what he did in 2002 with Hasek, Hull, Robitialle and others. But I don't think the Larry Murphy comparison was very good, considering the point that was already made being that he wasn't even GM yet.

Great post Eva. I thought the segment on Holland during the last game with Nashville was a great, albeit brief look at how Holland functions. Some things he said that I thought were great were:

1. he hires good people and he gets the hell out of their way so they can do their job

2. Wings management work together when it comes to drafting and trading. He said that basically everybody was in the room discussing the pros/cons of acquiring Calder and Bert

3. In the end though, its his job to see that the deals that management as a group want to make get done. He facilitates the conversations with other teams that get the trades done. The buck stops with him and he's the guy who is responsible for the direction of the team.

Alot of people criticize Holland because he has good people around him, which I think is the stupidest goddamned thing i've ever heard.

A smart person, in a position of power or responsibility hires smart people to work around and with him. That's just common sense. Who would want to be the guy with his head on the chopping block because he's surrounded himself with a bunch of ******* nitwits.

I'd rather have a management core that is strong from top to bottom instead of a management team that has a super genius at the top who has to cover up for all the dumb s***s beneath him.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Not to pile on the Schneider hate, but we acquire Matt at the deadline in '03, so that makes it three early exits. Who's not doing their research now, Lou?

Whoops! Good call HOH! Now he was DEFINITELY the right piece at the right time!!

[LeftWinger 4,964]

...I am SO tired of this Holland BOUGHT his Stanley Cup garbage, and that the Devils were the better team during the 90's! First of all, lets look at the 1997 Cup team. Who did we buy on that team? How about 1998? Strange, didn't throw any huge money around to big-name UFA's that year either. Ok fast forward to 2002. People say we signed Hasek for big bucks... uh.... hello, we traded one of our consistant playoff performers in Kozlov and 2 first round draft picks for him? Is that breaking out the chek book and buying the Cup? We also signed Olausson (nobody else wanted) Robataille (nobody else wanted) and Hull (nobody else wanted, he didn't sign with us unitl AUGUST of 2001!!!!) Just tell me how that constitutes BUYING the three Cups we won?!?!?!? Damn that pissess me off!!!!

....ok, the Devils comparison. Lets see, the had 3 cups in 9 years? In those 9 years, they had 3 first round eliminations, 1 second round and 1 finals elimination and the year after they won their first cup, they didn't even make the playoffs!!!

....Detroit, 3 Cups in six years, but lets look at the same 9 years we did with the Devils. 3 Cups, 2 first round defeats, 2 second round, 1 third round defeat, and 1 finals loss....

Regular season in those same 9 years Detroit had 416 out of 704 possible wins. Devils, 379 out of 704.

...I'll give Lamoriello the nod over Holland obly because our first two Cup teams were basically built by Jim Devellano, Bryan Murray and Scotty Bowman, with Holland adding a couple of pieces to put us over, and Lou built his team on his own. But there is no way in Hell am I conceding that the Devils were the better team in that same time frame, no way! Stats and playoff sucess prove it otherwise...

[LeftWinger 4,964]

...also, what the hell does Sports Illistrated know about hockey? They dedicatede, what, 2 pages each month to the sport? When the Wings won their first Cup in 42 years, who was on the cover? Michael Jordan winning his sixth championship or something like that...

...I know that Sports Illistrated sucks balls over teams in the Metropolitan New York area (ie new Jersey) but you would think that since Detroit IS and American team who just happens to have more Cup wins than any other American Team, and most Canadian teams, that they would be sending some BJ's this way... I never understood it...

[Kp-Wings 3]

I would never want Lamoriello as a GM. He is an ok GM, but god damn, he builds the most boring product ever assembled. No wonder the Devils have no fan base.

The fact that the Devils could put a Librarien to sleep obviously assembles from Lamoriello. He has the power to make the team a little, just a little, more interesting to watch, yet he doesn't. I admit that the style he chooses does win, but it sure doesn't make the game look very good.

[drw13 0]

every personnel move goes through the GM whether it be a trade or drafting a player. The fact that the wings have all this young blood either here(dats and zetts) or in the waiting(Igor, if he ever comes, and kindl) shows what he's done. I mean sure he gets recommendations from scouts but who doesn't? Ultimately who gets picked and signed comes down to the GM(or owner in rare cases) and to a much lesser extent the coaches. As for Murphy, sure Bowman wanted the trade to be made but it was Holland who had to make a deal to get him. Suggesting a player and getting a player are two different things.

[eva unit zero 271]

As for Murphy, sure Bowman wanted the trade to be made but it was Holland who had to make a deal to get him. Suggesting a player and getting a player are two different things.

Bowman was Director of Player Personnel until June 1997.

Murphy was acquired before the deadline in 1997, and was on both the 1997 and 1998 Cup squads.

Holland had little to do with acquiring Murphy, if anything.

Holland's first task as GM was a daunting one, though; it was "Replace the best defenseman in the league."

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

...I am SO tired of this Holland BOUGHT his Stanley Cup garbage, and that the Devils were the better team during the 90's! First of all, lets look at the 1997 Cup team. Who did we buy on that team? How about 1998? Strange, didn't throw any huge money around to big-name UFA's that year either. Ok fast forward to 2002. People say we signed Hasek for big bucks... uh.... hello, we traded one of our consistant playoff performers in Kozlov and 2 first round draft picks for him? Is that breaking out the chek book and buying the Cup? We also signed Olausson (nobody else wanted) Robataille (nobody else wanted) and Hull (nobody else wanted, he didn't sign with us unitl AUGUST of 2001!!!!) Just tell me how that constitutes BUYING the three Cups we won?!?!?!? Damn that pissess me off!!!!

....ok, the Devils comparison. Lets see, the had 3 cups in 9 years? In those 9 years, they had 3 first round eliminations, 1 second round and 1 finals elimination and the year after they won their first cup, they didn't even make the playoffs!!!

....Detroit, 3 Cups in six years, but lets look at the same 9 years we did with the Devils. 3 Cups, 2 first round defeats, 2 second round, 1 third round defeat, and 1 finals loss....

Regular season in those same 9 years Detroit had 416 out of 704 possible wins. Devils, 379 out of 704.

...I'll give Lamoriello the nod over Holland obly because our first two Cup teams were basically built by Jim Devellano, Bryan Murray and Scotty Bowman, with Holland adding a couple of pieces to put us over, and Lou built his team on his own. But there is no way in Hell am I conceding that the Devils were the better team in that same time frame, no way! Stats and playoff sucess prove it otherwise...

They have if not the best, one of the best goalies of alltime. On top of that, they play the trap (one of the most talentless/lame). You give us Broduer and those years with the shakey goalie (ozzie unfortunately) we probably win more than 3 cups. Those cups New Jersey won should of a * by it.

[WingNut 25 5]

I still laugh at that Forbes article. How is Jay Feaster #2 overall when the guy has won 1 Cup then overpaid his stars and handcuffed his team's future?