Should Hamilton get an NHL team?

[Barrie 900]

Now, speaking REALISTICALLY, any metro area with a population of less than a million should probably not be considered to be an NHL city; metro areas that small have typically failed in recent years. There is currently only no metro area with a population lower than 1m that has its own team. Raleigh, Edmonton, Calgary, Buffalo, and Ottawa are the only markets above 1m but below 1.4m, and Nashville, Columbus, and San Jose round out the list of metro areas under 2m.

The last metro areas with fewer than 1m? Winnipeg, Quebec, and Greensboro are the only cities that have hosted NHL teams since the 1930s whose metro areas currently have a population fewer than 1m.

eva, have you been to Hamilton? Hamilton and Toronto combine for 7 Million people. There's no seperation between the two cities, the suburbs of both areas connect them together.

There's a large number of people who are moving out of Toronto to the West 'burbs (Burlington, Oakville, and Mississauga), which is on Hamilton's side of Toronto. Plus there's about another Million people within an hours drive West of Hamilton. The amount of money, people interested in the NHL, and them number of people Hamilton can draw from is massive.

Edit: It's a "Cash Cow" waiting to happen.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Barrie

[dicksmack 33]

Yes, as long as they resurrect the name the "Fincups"

[eva unit zero 271]

eva, have you been to Hamilton? Hamilton and Toronto combine for 7 Million people. There's no seperation between the two cities, the suburbs of both areas connect them together.

There's a large number of people who are moving out of Toronto to the West 'burbs (Burlington, Oakville, and Mississauga), which is on Hamilton's side of Toronto. Plus there's about another Million people within an hours drive West of Hamilton. The amount of money, people interested in the NHL, and them number of people Hamilton can draw from is massive.

Edit: It's a "Cash Cow" waiting to happen.

The triangle of SE Michigan and NW Ohio from Port Huron to Flint to Toledo is of comparable size to the Greater Golden Horseshoe and comparable population. The economy didn't stop people from buying regular season tickets to Wings games. I guarantee I would be much more likely to go to a game if there were a team with cheaper tickets based in Ann Arbor, where I live.

Basically, Ann Arbor is as equally set up for success as Hamilton is.

[grimace1970 81]

The league needs to drop between 2 and 6 teams. It definitely doesn't need to add any.

[eva unit zero 271]

The league needs to drop between 2 and 6 teams. It definitely doesn't need to add any.

There are currently 16 teams worth of Canadians playing major pro hockey. This is the lowest number of Canadians in major pro hockey since 1972. There are 30 major pro hockey teams. This is the largest number ever seen. So if we assume Canadian hockey has stayed the same--the average player is not better or worse--then there are basically an 14 extra teams of players as good or better than the worst NHLers in 1972.

Now, many of those 'extra' players are star players. Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg being notable 'extra' players on the Wings. So it's reasonable to conclude that the average player now across 30 teams is better than the average player across 14 teams in 1972, or even across 12 teams from 68-71.

So it's therefore reasonable to state that the quality of players top to bottom now is the best we've seen since the Original Six, and that's with five times as many teams.

Contraction is not a viable option; it would cost far too much to achieve far too little, it would REDUCE the NHL's market size and revenue, and the difference in level of play would not be noticeable for the most part.

[Jwo 7]

I won't disagree with anything you've said. I just want to point out that Legionnaire was responding to a poster that had indicated that it really took at least a generation to successfully judge whether a market will support hockey. Being a generation is about 25 years, Legionnaire was pointing out that Nashville has only been on the ice for 8 seasons to this point.

David

I do not buy into the whole generation thing. The people around the city and State are either going to support or not support. The 10 year mark is coming up for when Nashville announced they would be getting a Pro Hockey team. People should have gotten excited whether they are 60 years old or 10 years old from that.

As much this is going to hurt me saying this but the Preds made a great run in being first in the NHL and no one in Nashville seem to care about it. Most cities would of peeked interest with it having nothing to do with giving it time for generations to grow up.

the thing is, we showed in the beginning that the town can support the team. We averaged 16,000 back then. Then the Titans came and made a run to the super bowl, and a lot of corporate support jumped over to that ship. Then the "Playoff Pledge" in the 5th season didn't pan out and a lot of the individual fans jumped ship at that point. But we've been building up again. Despite ticket price increases in the last two seasons, we've also seen the average paid attendance increase. So not only are more people going to games in Nashviille, but they're willing to pay more money to do so. and the team hasn't even won a stinkin playoff series yet. So, with attendance on the rise for a team who hasn't won anything yet, that's a good sign that the fanbase is growing. It would be pretty bad to abandon this market now.

Other city markets have 4 professional sports teams (NHL,MLB,NFL,NBA) with having their NFL team making a super bowl run and they seem to do well with having the corporate support while Nashville only has 2 professional sports teams. This leads it to saying Nashville is a bust.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Jwo

[Legionnaire11 0]

jwo... did the Red Wings sell out all of their games from the very beginning????

[Barrie 900]

Just an update on the Hamilton Season Ticket Campain thing. I heard today on the FAN590 that it's up to 12,000 seats and 80 Corporate Boxes.

That number for the boxes is very impressive!

[Legionnaire11 0]

there aren't even 80 boxes in the place are there?

didn't they say last week that the upper bowl was sold out? and then the next day it wasn't? nice!

they're really looking good for an expansion team one day

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

If Nashville got a shot, I don't see why Hamilton shouldn't.

[Barrie 900]

there aren't even 80 boxes in the place are there?

didn't they say last week that the upper bowl was sold out? and then the next day it wasn't? nice!

they're really looking good for an expansion team one day

I don't how many are there now, I've been there an number of times, but the arena has said they will have 80 if the city gets a team.

Edit: Off hand I would say now they have 40.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Barrie

[MacK_Attack 108]

Balsillie and Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment have had preliminary talks about allowing LeafsTV to air some Predators games as well as allowing MLSE to manage Copps Coliseum.....so the expected blockade by the Leafs may not happen.

[CdnWingsFanEh 2]

there aren't even 80 boxes in the place are there?

didn't they say last week that the upper bowl was sold out? and then the next day it wasn't? nice!

they're really looking good for an expansion team one day

No, I don't believe there are 80 boxes. I think there are somewhere b/t 40 and 70. From what I understand, though, the original engineers of Copps Coliseum, intentionally designed the arena in a fashion where the entire top of the arena can somehow be raised so that extra corporate boxes and seats could be installed. They don't have the number of corporate boxes required by the league, but apparently it would not be difficult, just expensive (140-150 million) to upgrade the arena.

Edit (source)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...beSportsHockey/

Apparently it can be retrofitted for up to 200 corporate box seats.

Edited June 19, 2007 by CdnWingsFanEh

[vangvace 12]

the thing is, we showed in the beginning that the town can support the team. We averaged 16,000 back then. Then the Titans came and made a run to the super bowl, and a lot of corporate support jumped over to that ship. Then the "Playoff Pledge" in the 5th season didn't pan out and a lot of the individual fans jumped ship at that point. But we've been building up again. Despite ticket price increases in the last two seasons, we've also seen the average paid attendance increase. So not only are more people going to games in Nashviille, but they're willing to pay more money to do so. and the team hasn't even won a stinkin playoff series yet. So, with attendance on the rise for a team who hasn't won anything yet, that's a good sign that the fanbase is growing. It would be pretty bad to abandon this market now.

Legionnaire,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Leipold and Co. screw the city over a few times before the pledge as well? If memory serves me correctly even the arena deal in general is heavily favoring to him and not the city? Also if I remember right he wanted the city to build him a new practice facility on their dollar.

I know he whine's often to the league and has been looking for any league handouts he can get.

Hope your team stays with better ownership and RIM gets an expansion. I have a feeling that'll help much of your support problems

[Majsheppard 203]

The real question is does Nashville deserve a team, and from all I can see the answer is hell no. Give the team to a bumble f*@# small Canadian town before I give it to a bumble F&$% small red neck hick American town.

I mean at least they wouldn't dress their players in baby sh*t yellow sweaters.

I promice you that.

[Jwo 7]

jwo... did the Red Wings sell out all of their games from the very beginning????

I do not know I was not alive.

No, I don't believe there are 80 boxes. I think there are somewhere b/t 40 and 70. From what I understand, though, the original engineers of Copps Coliseum, intentionally designed the arena in a fashion where the entire top of the arena can somehow be raised so that extra corporate boxes and seats could be installed. They don't have the number of corporate boxes required by the league, but apparently it would not be difficult, just expensive (140-150 million) to upgrade the arena.

Edit (source)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...beSportsHockey/

Apparently it can be retrofitted for up to 200 corporate box seats.

Thats some kick arse engineering. I would love to see a video of them building the arena.

[Barrie 900]

The real question is does Nashville deserve a team, and from all I can see the answer is hell no. Give the team to a bumble f*@# small Canadian town before I give it to a bumble F&$% small red neck hick American town.

I mean at least they wouldn't dress their players in baby sh*t yellow sweaters.

I promice you that.

I think Nashville deserves a team. There's other markets that should be moved, but right now Nashville is the only team that we know of that's for sale.

[CdnWingsFanEh 2]

I do not know I was not alive.

Thats some kick arse engineering. I would love to see a video of them building the arena.

No kidding. I guess there's a lot of hurdles that would have to jumped first...

[Kp-Wings 3]

I think Nashville deserves a team. There's other markets that should be moved, but right now Nashville is the only team that we know of that's for sale.

Based off of what?

Note that the fans will start coming out to support the team now only because it is in direct danger of moving. If Leipold would have bitten the bullet and kept the team as is, the attendance would have been flatter then ever before next season.

The team was once again trounced in the first round (by the same opponent in the same number of games), and they sold the farm just to land a pretty useless Peter Forsberg. Not to mention that just before Leipold walked away, he granted Trotz another season behind the bench. Most of the fans don't like him anyways, so that makes it even worse. Not much incentive there to go watch any games, unless the Preds bought Crosby or something, which is impossible anyways so it doesn't even pay to think of the idea.

The city itself has it's group of die-hard fans, just like all teams. But that group is considerably smaller compared to everyone else who prefer watching the Titans, College Football, or just not caring about hockey or the Predators. The group numbers are pretty uneven too. It's been eight seasons or so since they've moved to Nashville, so maybe that isn't long enough. But unless the sale with Balsillie falls apart, that team is moving. Maybe not next year, but soon enough. A few out clauses won't stop him, since stuff like that generally comes with a loophole or two that usually work in the owners favor.

edited for grammar

Edited June 20, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[DyingAlive 27]

I think it's an awful idea for two reasons.

1) Your giving Nashville only 8 years to set up a franchise. They don't prosper right away and you want to ship them off to another town. The community around the Preds has grown dramatically. You can't say there are not die hards in Nashville, yes, maybe Hamilton has more hockey fans, but I'll discuss that in my next point. I say give Nashville an even decade. Not this bulls*** threat stuff. Of course your fans are going to ditch when they know the team is moving.

2) Hamilton is way to close to both Toronto and Buffalo, does Basille really think he is going to get a strong fan base? No way are true Maple Leaf fans going to ditch their team for some new franchise, it is strategically, way to close to Toronto. The Maple Leafs are a proud franchise, whether they are winning or not. It's not a bright move to move right on the outskirts of them.

Realistically, I think it's a bad location for a new team. I do however, think that Canada needs another team, eventually.

[Legionnaire11 0]

Legionnaire,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Leipold and Co. screw the city over a few times before the pledge as well? If memory serves me correctly even the arena deal in general is heavily favoring to him and not the city? Also if I remember right he wanted the city to build him a new practice facility on their dollar.

I know he whine's often to the league and has been looking for any league handouts he can get.

Hope your team stays with better ownership and RIM gets an expansion. I have a feeling that'll help much of your support problems

Well, Leipold didn't negotiate the arena deal. Nashville built the Arena before the Predators were even thought of. Then they worked up the basis of the lease before they had a team. Leipold just happened to be the lucky guy who took them up on their offer. Actually, the Devils were all set to move down here in 97, but then they won the cup in 96 and their fan support shot up for a few years, so they stayed in Jersey.

I also believe the practice rink was part of that deal. And it wasn't a brand new facility either, there was already an existing rink and all the city did was add a second sheet of ice to that facilitiy, it's also used for public leagues and open skating, so that part isn't a big deal.

Leipold in general hasn't been a great owner. I mean, he's a great guy, nice, honest and just an every man type of guy. He let Poile and Trotz do their job and he just sat back and enjoyed the game as a fan. He treated everyone in the organization in a first class way and was always accessible to the fans. He tried to run the organization correctly, got a coach that was good at developing young players and building a good defensive system, a GM who wanted to build through the draft and build from the net out. All the things you really need to do in order to have long term success and build a solid organization. The problem is, that type of project takes a lot of time and money in a town like Nashville. It would have worked great in a traditional city where the fans and corporate dollars are more patient and knowledgable. But here in Nashville, we really needed to spend a little more in the first few seasons and get a couple of decent players in here to keep everyone entertained while the system was built up. We never got lucky in the draft, after Legwand at #2, we never drafted any higher than 5th. Atlanta and Columbus had a bunch of #1 picks, and the Preds were always picking in the lower half of the top 10, so we never got a Lecavalier, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Nash type of player.

[KronwallCRUNCH 5]

there aren't even 80 boxes in the place are there?

didn't they say last week that the upper bowl was sold out? and then the next day it wasn't? nice!

they're really looking good for an expansion team one day

Just curious, how many boxes and seats were sold in Nashville prior to the Preds moving in? I know you're pissed that your team could be on the way out, but come on. The argument that everyone is already a Leafs or Sabres fan is a bunk one. Think in terms of people who were already hockey fans in Nashville before the Preds existed- you could have made the same argument; of course people in Hamilton are fans of other teams, THEY DON'T HAVE ONE OF THEIR OWN! I doubt that the majority of them drive 2+ hours to go to T.O. and Buffalo to see games live (on a regular basis)- attendance in Hamilton would be great.

Edited June 20, 2007 by MotownIce

[toby91_ca 620]

Think in terms of people who were already hockey fans in Nashville before the Preds existed- you could have made the same argument; of course people in Hamilton are fans of other teams, THEY DON'T HAVE ONE OF THEIR OWN! I doubt that the majority of them drive 2+ hours to go to T.O. and Buffalo to see games live (on a regular basis)- attendance in Hamilton would be great.

Well, 2+ hours isn't really accurate. Hamilton is about 30-45 minutes from Toronto and is less than 1.5 hours from Buffalo. Granted, traffic on a game night would extend that, though, a Go Train ride to Toronto avoids that issue and avoids paying for parking as well.

However, I do not think there is a big issue of having to convert Leaf fans to draw attendence in Hamilton. I don't think you have to be a fan of the team to attend the games. For example, I live in between Toronto and Hamilton and I am not a Leaf fan, but have gone to games when the opportunity arises. As a hockey fan, I would go to games in Hamilton just to be able to see NHL hockey live.

[eva unit zero 271]

Just curious, how many boxes and seats were sold in Nashville prior to the Preds moving in? I know you're pissed that your team could be on the way out, but come on. The argument that everyone is already a Leafs or Sabres fan is a bunk one. Think in terms of people who were already hockey fans in Nashville before the Preds existed- you could have made the same argument; of course people in Hamilton are fans of other teams, THEY DON'T HAVE ONE OF THEIR OWN! I doubt that the majority of them drive 2+ hours to go to T.O. and Buffalo to see games live (on a regular basis)- attendance in Hamilton would be great.

Hamilton is within an hour of both Buffalo and Toronto, just FYI.

Also, THE PREDS HAVE NOT BEEN SOLD YET. The sale must be approved by the end of this month. Balsille told Bettman he was not planning on moving the team, then started taking deposits for tickets. There is a locally owned group that has put together a bid in the event Balsille's bid is rejected, which at this point seems likely.

[Legionnaire11 0]

Nashville sold 12,000 season tickets. not deposits, full season tickets before they were granted an expansion team