Why not Cleary on the top two lines?

[dustin35 0]

Zetterberg Datsyuk Holmstrom

Cleary Filppula Samuelsson

Franzen Hudler Grigorenko

Maltby Draper Kopecky

Now this is with what we have now so could change when we pick up someone if we even do. what do you think?

[Guest Crymson]

I like Cleary. Hes a great guy. Love having him play here and its awesome that hes had such a big year...

BUT

Hes simply not a 2nd line player. Kris Draper put up 24 goals one time too, remember? One good year does not a 2nd line player maker.

Shouldn't you include a "YET" in your statement, rather than making this judgment before you can see if he repeats his success of last season?

EDIT: who do you see as a better option, in any event?

Edited July 4, 2007 by Crymson

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Shouldn't you include a "YET" in your statement, rather than making this judgment before you can see if he repeats his success of last season?

EDIT: who do you see as a better option, in any event?

I shouldnt include a yet because Cleary is a 29 year old who rode the wave of confidence to 20 goals in a few months, and then couldnt pot a single goal in his last 18 games.

In any event, who do I see as a better option? Well, in the event that they come cheap (around 2M), then I would feel more comfortable with Guerin, Comrie, or Yashin in the top six. And the only guy I really want the Wings to get is Guerin.

Edited July 4, 2007 by YoungGuns1340

[Flip-check 6]

Zetterberg Datsyuk Holmstrom

Cleary Filppula Samuelsson

Franzen Hudler Grigorenko

Maltby Draper Kopecky

Now this is with what we have now so could change when we pick up someone if we even do. what do you think?

Drapes and Malts will be on the third line, that's for sure... Grigs and Kopecky on the 4th (if Grigorenko makes it), the Fronz'll be up on the 2nd.

And I see Babs making a much stronger push this year for splitting the Eurotwins, even if he does pair them occasionally if they slump. last but not least... sadly I see Huds getting benched some more, again

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I shouldnt include a yet because Cleary is a 29 year old who rode the wave of confidence to 20 goals in a few months, and then couldnt pot a single goal in his last 18 games.

In any event, who do I see as a better option? Well, in the event that they come cheap (around 2M), then I would feel more comfortable with Guerin, Comrie, or Yashin in the top six. And the only guy I really want the Wings to get is Guerin.

Clearys only 27. Yes he had 1 great year , with Lang and Williams. He had a slump , so did Zetterberg for the first part of the season and that turned around. Put him with some good line mates and he could match 20 and eclipse 30. Hes a former 1st round pick , hes got the talent , and now he has a coach who beleives in him and has confidence and a great work ethic.

As for a guy to pick up. I'll say it , Yashins horrible , overated and lazy. I'd take Guerin for 2 million, he can score us 30 goals.

[Flip-check 6]

Clearys only 27. Yes he had 1 great year , with Lang and Williams. He had a slump , so did Zetterberg for the first part of the season and that turned around. Put him with some good line mates and he could match 20 and eclipse 30. Hes a former 1st round pick , hes got the talent , and now he has a coach who beleives in him and has confidence and a great work ethic.

He could, but he could go back to playing like he has the past few years. That's no knock on Dano, he's one of my favorite guys on the roster right now.

We know what we have in Z... we're still (re-!)finding that out with Clears. If he brings it again this year, I'm thrilled at the thought really.

[Kp-Wings 3]

One 20 goal season doesn't make Cleary a 2nd line player.

That's not a stab at him or anything, since I love Cleary. But he isn't a top line player. I really think he's more comfertable playing on the 3rd line, and providing offense from there anyways. That's where he played during the playoffs, and was great. I don't think that should be disrupted.

[puckloo39 5,686]

I have high hopes for Cleary to re-discover his scoring touch. I really like the guy and want him to have a "Draper" type year where he just owns everybody on the ice. I would love that so much for Cleary.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I shouldnt include a yet because Cleary is a 29 year old who rode the wave of confidence to 20 goals in a few months, and then couldnt pot a single goal in his last 18 games.

In any event, who do I see as a better option? Well, in the event that they come cheap (around 2M), then I would feel more comfortable with Guerin, Comrie, or Yashin in the top six. And the only guy I really want the Wings to get is Guerin.

I'd agree if that horrible 18 games of hell weren't bookended by an astounding performance in the playoffs (when it actually mattered). Oh, yeah, plus the whole Lang and Willy crap that held him back mid-season.

So, even ignoring his lack out output after his amazing start, you'd rather have Sammy in his place on the top two lines?

Sammy isn't top six material!

[Guest Crymson]

I'd agree if that horrible 18 games of hell weren't bookended by an astounding performance in the playoffs (when it actually mattered). Oh, yeah, plus the whole Lang and Willy crap that held him back mid-season.

So, even ignoring his lack out output after his amazing start, you'd rather have Sammy in his place on the top two lines?

Sammy isn't top six material!

Don't forget that playing with Draper and Maltby isn't the road to scoring.

I have high hopes for Cleary to re-discover his scoring touch. I really like the guy and want him to have a "Draper" type year where he just owns everybody on the ice. I would love that so much for Cleary.

Twelve points in eighteen playoff games--with six of those games played on a line with Maltby and Draper--doesn't constitute a rediscovery of his scoring touch? When he finally got time on a scoring line, he cleaned up. He was the series-leader in points going into game-six at Anaheim.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Don't forget that playing with Draper and Maltby isn't the road to scoring.

Twelve points in eighteen playoff games--with six of those games played on a line with Maltby and Draper--doesn't constitute a rediscovery of his scoring touch? When he finally got time on a scoring line, he cleaned up. He was the series-leader in points going into game-six at Anaheim.

Hey- you saw the same games as me!

And I have a feeling Babs likes Cleary, which means no rude treatment ala-Huds.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Hey- you saw the same games as me!

And I have a feeling Babs likes Cleary, which means no rude treatment ala-Huds.

Babs is Clearys biggest fan (Other then me ) , I see no reason why he wouldnt use him on the top lines.

[Guest Crymson]

Hey- you saw the same games as me!

And I have a feeling Babs likes Cleary, which means no rude treatment ala-Huds.

I've heard Hudler has work-ethic problems.

Cleary has no issues to speak of. He hustles and that's that, and he's got major talent. I don't know a coach on earth who wouldn't love the guy.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I've heard Hudler has work-ethic problems.

Cleary has no issues to speak of. He hustles and that's that, and he's got major talent. I don't know a coach on earth who wouldn't love the guy.

Really? Bad work ethic

Damn it. I want that kid to succeed so much. Really I do. Maybe he just needs a coach that actually believes in him? But hell, I'm not one to tell Mike Babcock how to coach!

[Guest Crymson]

Really? Bad work ethic

Damn it. I want that kid to succeed so much. Really I do. Maybe he just needs a coach that actually believes in him? But hell, I'm not one to tell Mike Babcock how to coach!

I'm sure Babcock has his flaws. Everyone has flaws.

[Dabura 12,232]

Cleary has no issues to speak of. He hustles and that's that, and he's got major talent. I don't know a coach on earth who wouldn't love the guy.

Look, I like Cleary as much as the next guy, but come on -- he doesn't belong anywhere but on a scoring line and has no issue to speak of? Yes, he was a balls-out titan this last postseason run, but as many have said, it remains to be seen if he can be that good consistently.

Additionally, you have to consider chemistry: for all we know, the second line will be Flip, Huds, and Grigs and it'll own fools left and right.

[Flip-check 6]

I've heard Hudler has work-ethic problems.

Cleary has no issues to speak of. He hustles and that's that, and he's got major talent. I don't know a coach on earth who wouldn't love the guy.

I've heard Babs say on the mic he'd be better if he works harder, but lemme know about the work ethic info.

I'm pretty curious about that (because I haven't heard about it, not 'cos I'm looking to refute something)

[Opie 308]

Warning this is all opinion:

I think Cleary experienced success with the wings because babs is the type of coach he needs and Draper is the type of line mate he needs.

I think if you were able to put Cleary on an Yzerman line he would have had the same success. He needs to be pushed. He didn't perform well prior to Detroit for that reason. He was a top line player without proving it, he was paid top pick money without working for it.

Now he has sort of a negative cloud over his head. Detroit is the opportunity for him to turn things around, he has a coach pushing him, and if he is given a hardworking line mate (Mule or Flip) he could continue to be better. I think putting him on a line with Dats or Z may make him revert because they look so effortless out there. He may have a tendency to float as opposed to grind it out and work hard.

Homer doesn't change his game with anyone, so him with Dats and Z won't impact him.

[eva unit zero 271]

He was also out with injury for a significant portion of that time, and was presumably still slightly injured when he returned. Check your data.

Also check the fact that he was playing with Lang and Williams. Lang went into the most shameful, disgraceful slump I've seen in my life, whilst we all know that Williams sucks. Cleary would hustle all over the ice, hitting, driving the net etc., whilst Williams would take moronic shots and Lang would give the puck away. I believe we have been over this in the past.

Cleary was playing with Lang and Williams when he was hot, too. The fact that proven scorer Lang takes all kinds of heat for his slump last year, but gets no credit for his hot streak, while underachiever Cleary takes no heat for the slump, yet gets a ton of credit for the hot streak, is nuts. Cleary is a good player, but if you think his performance in the regular season was entirely a result of his ability and not largely due to the fact that he was the only option a hot Robert Lang had, you might just be crazy.

I would like to see the following lines if we sign nobody else;

Holmstrom/Zetterberg/Samuelsson

Filppula/Datsyuk/Franzen

Cleary/Hudler/Grigorenko

Maltby/Draper/Kopecky

[joshy207 156]

I agree that Cleary was the Wings' best player against Anaheim. He has an excellent work ethic and thrives under Babcock. His mid-season scoring streak was great--the net must have looked like a soccer goal to him. Everything he shot went in.

But that just happens to guys sometimes. Draper got 24 goals one year, and most of the time with him, if he gets a breakaway you can get up and grab another beer because you know he's not going to score. John Druce lit up the playoffs in 1990, 14 goals in 15 games. He never scored more than 21 in a regular season. Other guys have done the same thing. Chris Shelton hit .800 with 9 home runs last April for the Tigers, but he didn't make the postseason roster and is back in AAA Toledo this year.

Can Cleary have another big year? Sure. Will he? Who knows. Obviously, his linemates will play a part in that, but so will luck. It might have just been a magical 2 months (and 2 weeks in the playoffs). I think he will see time on the 2nd line because the Wings lack "top 6" type forwards, but I would not call him a 2nd-liner.

[kylee 727]

Clearys streaky.

i've got no problem with playing him up there when he's scoring, but i like the fact he can play a checking role when he's not scoring.

Cleary is the man.

id love to see him have another good year.

[Guest Crymson]

Cleary was playing with Lang and Williams when he was hot, too. The fact that proven scorer Lang takes all kinds of heat for his slump last year, but gets no credit for his hot streak, while underachiever Cleary takes no heat for the slump, yet gets a ton of credit for the hot streak, is nuts. Cleary is a good player, but if you think his performance in the regular season was entirely a result of his ability and not largely due to the fact that he was the only option a hot Robert Lang had, you might just be crazy.

I would like to see the following lines if we sign nobody else;

Holmstrom/Zetterberg/Samuelsson

Filppula/Datsyuk/Franzen

Cleary/Hudler/Grigorenko

Maltby/Draper/Kopecky

What about his performance in the playoffs?

I agree that Cleary was the Wings' best player against Anaheim. He has an excellent work ethic and thrives under Babcock. His mid-season scoring streak was great--the net must have looked like a soccer goal to him. Everything he shot went in.

But that just happens to guys sometimes. Draper got 24 goals one year, and most of the time with him, if he gets a breakaway you can get up and grab another beer because you know he's not going to score. John Druce lit up the playoffs in 1990, 14 goals in 15 games. He never scored more than 21 in a regular season. Other guys have done the same thing. Chris Shelton hit .800 with 9 home runs last April for the Tigers, but he didn't make the postseason roster and is back in AAA Toledo this year.

Can Cleary have another big year? Sure. Will he? Who knows. Obviously, his linemates will play a part in that, but so will luck. It might have just been a magical 2 months (and 2 weeks in the playoffs). I think he will see time on the 2nd line because the Wings lack "top 6" type forwards, but I would not call him a 2nd-liner.

In this post, you've said:

"We don't know if Cleary will have another big year," seemingly acknowledging that we can't make a judgment yet as to whether he'll be 2nd-line-class this year.

Then you say, "he's not a 2nd-liner."

That makes zero sense. "We can't say if he'll be good enough to play on the 2nd line until we see him play this season, but he's not good enough for the 2nd line."

[eva unit zero 271]

What about his performance in the playoffs?

Playing with Draper and Maltby, who he played very well with?

Think abut what you are saying for a second. Cleary's best performances came when he was the only option of a hot Robert Lang, and when he was with two similar type of players in Draper and Maltby, but on the third line.

Putting him on the second line won't recreate either of those situations. It would be better to use Hudler in a scoring role and Cleary in a checking role than the reverse, don't you think?

[Opie 308]

I think him playing on the checking line will actually help his game. As I said in my other post, when he is surrounded by hard workers he seems to work really hard.

Also he seems to really get going when he is playing physical, it appears as though using the body gets his stick going.

Now I am not saying he is a beast out there, but he did level Phanuef and that led to a Draper goal, well his chasing the puck down while phanuef stumbled around looking for his blanky led to the Draper goal!!

[joshy207 156]

What about his performance in the playoffs?

In this post, you've said:

"We don't know if Cleary will have another big year," seemingly acknowledging that we can't make a judgment yet as to whether he'll be 2nd-line-class this year.

Then you say, "he's not a 2nd-liner."

That makes zero sense. "We can't say if he'll be good enough to play on the 2nd line until we see him play this season, but he's not good enough for the 2nd line."

Basically what I was saying is that Cleary is not a 2nd-line forward. He's not a guy you can count on to create offense all the time. He might chip in 20 goals again--or he might only get 5. Scoring or setting up goals isn't his game. Hard work, speed, defensive responsibility, hitting... that's the style Cleary plays, which is not a second-line style.