Why no Enforcer in Motown?

[Yzerfan1999 81]

**Totals are Regular season and Playoffs ONLY**

07-Ducks (75 FM's) v. Senators (28 FM's)

06-Carolina (19 FM's) v. Edmonton (31 FM's)

04-Tampa Bay (51 FM's) v. Calgary (85 FM's)

03-New Jersey (44 FM's) v. Ducks (33 FM's)

*02-Red Wings (21 FM's) v. Carolina (33 FM's)

01-Colorado (50 FM's) v. New Jersey (56 FM's)

00-New Jersey (47 FM's) v. Dallas (37 FM's)

99-Dallas (35 FM) v. Buffalo (52 FM's)

*98-Red Wings (33 FM's) v. Washington (32 FM's)

*97-Red Wings (62 FM's) v. Philly (82 FM's)

*****Above are the regular season and playoff fighting majors for the teams in stanley cup finals. The total Detroit Red Wing FM count FOR 2005-2006 (6 FM) AND 2006-2007 (12 FM) IS 18 TOTAL FIGHTING MAJORS. that is less then the smallest number above (06 Carolia).****

In closing I am not saying we need to have 75 FM a year, or anyhting close to that but clearly fighting is a big component of winning teams, that is unarguable. Its more then the actual fight, its what the fight does for the players on the team and their confidence, chemistry, and eventual team unity. Now for all you euro-style fanatics have at it, blah blah blah, we dont need enforcers, etc etc. The truth is in the numbers though, and the numbers greatly support the notion that willing tough guys are a big part of championship winning teams.

Your numbers are irrelevant. 6/10 times in your stats, the team with FEWER fighting majors won the cup. The Canes won the Cup with a WHOPING 19 fighting majors last year!? Whooiieee. Even though I am sure it would make no difference to the argument, i'd like to see the fighting major TOTALS for every team for the last 10 years, and we will see how many times a team with high FM won the cup. I don't know what more you want. The Wings won the fricken conf. last year and barring injuries vs. the Ducks, very well could have won the cup.

Maybe someone should ask the players how much an enforcer helps. For younger guys, I can see it adding security - but for the Wings, and experienced, veteran club - I think most of these guys can stick up for themselves. They have the skill to win the games, they don't need a big fight to pick up there game play. And the Wings record from the last 2 seasons along with last years playoff proves that.

[Lefkowitz 0]

Several players on the 1997, 98 and probably even the 2002 Red Wings would've gone after Drake or Torres after their cheapshots.

I won't get into it all again, you can check the signature. I'm not looking for a fight every game. I just want guys that will stick up for their teammates.

i could not agree with your sig more...seriously. guys like Joe Thornton come to mind. dont get me wrong i love the skilled guys like Dats and Z but i would love a few guys who can just cycle the puck and have people bounce off them like flys.

[sticknmove 0]

"There are a number of Wings who won't take s*** from other guys - Maltby, Cleary, Chelios, Lijia, Franzen, now Drake, and even Zetterberg mixes it up nicely from time to time. I really don't think the Wings are ever playing scared, and the product they put on the ice proves it. Its important to have guys like Cleary who are hard nosed hockey players, but having a guy who goes out to get even for supposed cheap shots was not, and is not necessary."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya, bro wake up or shut up because it is evident you are absolutely clueless.

"Your numbers are irrelevant. 6/10 times in your stats, the team with FEWER fighting majors won the cup. The Canes won the Cup with a WHOPING 19 fighting majors last year!? Whooiieee. Even though I am sure it would make no difference to the argument, i'd like to see the fighting major TOTALS for every team for the last 10 years, and we will see how many times a team with high FM won the cup. I don't know what more you want. The Wings won the fricken conf. last year and barring injuries vs. the Ducks, very well could have won the cup. "

You are ignorant, the numbers are far from irrelevevant, they illustrate that teams that have FM's in the single digits simply do not win cups you twit. It shows that to be a well rounded hockey unit having players willing to drop em here and there is a must. I knew funboys like you would bring up the canes, and even they double the FM's detroit has racked up over the past 2 years combined. Keep with your philosophy of "Maltby, Cleary, Franzen (bahahahahahahahahaha)" not taking s*** and the conference finals is the farthest you'll ever see this team go. I am sorry bro but your inability to grasp a funamental idea leads me to believe you are just a slow individual whom does not deserve nor warrant any further explanation into how things really are.

PS- Southern Wings fan, I have forgotten more about this team and hockey in general then you will ever know so pipe down smallfry and go back to the "Why wont Babs play Hudler more" threads.

[sticknmove 0]

Aaron Asham, nuf said. Realize we prolly cant afford him but man, the kid can play and is a friggin warrior. Would fit in perfectly here. woulda, coulda, shoulda though so oh well.

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[therock48880 14]

Ideally, there'd be another Probert out there somewhere. Someone that could fight and play well.

I heard a rumor that Hudler may go to Boogard's fight school. (kidding of course)

"There are a number of Wings who won't take s*** from other guys - Maltby, Cleary, Chelios, Lijia, Franzen, now Drake, and even Zetterberg mixes it up nicely from time to time. I really don't think the Wings are ever playing scared, and the product they put on the ice proves it. Its important to have guys like Cleary who are hard nosed hockey players, but having a guy who goes out to get even for supposed cheap shots was not, and is not necessary."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya, bro wake up or shut up because it is evident you are absolutely clueless.

"Your numbers are irrelevant. 6/10 times in your stats, the team with FEWER fighting majors won the cup. The Canes won the Cup with a WHOPING 19 fighting majors last year!? Whooiieee. Even though I am sure it would make no difference to the argument, i'd like to see the fighting major TOTALS for every team for the last 10 years, and we will see how many times a team with high FM won the cup. I don't know what more you want. The Wings won the fricken conf. last year and barring injuries vs. the Ducks, very well could have won the cup. "

You are ignorant, the numbers are far from irrelevevant, they illustrate that teams that have FM's in the single digits simply do not win cups you twit. It shows that to be a well rounded hockey unit having players willing to drop em here and there is a must. I knew funboys like you would bring up the canes, and even they double the FM's detroit has racked up over the past 2 years combined. Keep with your philosophy of "Maltby, Cleary, Franzen (bahahahahahahahahaha)" not taking s*** and the conference finals is the farthest you'll ever see this team go. I am sorry bro but your inability to grasp a funamental idea leads me to believe you are just a slow individual whom does not deserve nor warrant any further explanation into how things really are.

PS- Southern Wings fan, I have forgotten more about this team and hockey in general then you will ever know so pipe down smallfry and go back to the "Why wont Babs play Hudler more" threads.

What sucks about this post is that you make some GREAT points that I agree with 100% about hockey and then follow them up with peronsal attacks. This is a forum where everyone can state their opinions.

Edited July 19, 2007 by therock48880

[sticknmove 0]

"What sucks about this post is that you make some GREAT points that I agree with 100% about hockey and then follow them up with peronsal attacks. This is a forum where everyone can state their opinions."

I agree, I shouldnt get personal. My bad about that, I just get pissed when ppl simply to refuse that fighting is part of hockey and that is not going to change. And one playoff series or one team will not change that, no matter how many "purely skill oriented ie hands, speed, etc" players they have. its fact

"Why do you alway insist on stereotyping and generalizing all European-born hockey players as either being small or soft or being wusses?"

Its not a stereotype, well all euros arent small but 9 out of 10 european born players dont play that north american style of hockey. there is nothing negative about it, they just are brought up learning the game differently where the fighting and contact are not emphasisezed. Alot of hockey over in Europe does not even allow checking till players are much older then they do in North America.

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

"There are a number of Wings who won't take s*** from other guys - Maltby, Cleary, Chelios, Lijia, Franzen, now Drake, and even Zetterberg mixes it up nicely from time to time. I really don't think the Wings are ever playing scared, and the product they put on the ice proves it. Its important to have guys like Cleary who are hard nosed hockey players, but having a guy who goes out to get even for supposed cheap shots was not, and is not necessary."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya, bro wake up or shut up because it is evident you are absolutely clueless.

"Your numbers are irrelevant. 6/10 times in your stats, the team with FEWER fighting majors won the cup. The Canes won the Cup with a WHOPING 19 fighting majors last year!? Whooiieee. Even though I am sure it would make no difference to the argument, i'd like to see the fighting major TOTALS for every team for the last 10 years, and we will see how many times a team with high FM won the cup. I don't know what more you want. The Wings won the fricken conf. last year and barring injuries vs. the Ducks, very well could have won the cup. "

You are ignorant, the numbers are far from irrelevevant, they illustrate that teams that have FM's in the single digits simply do not win cups you twit. It shows that to be a well rounded hockey unit having players willing to drop em here and there is a must. I knew funboys like you would bring up the canes, and even they double the FM's detroit has racked up over the past 2 years combined. Keep with your philosophy of "Maltby, Cleary, Franzen (bahahahahahahahahaha)" not taking s*** and the conference finals is the farthest you'll ever see this team go. I am sorry bro but your inability to grasp a funamental idea leads me to believe you are just a slow individual whom does not deserve nor warrant any further explanation into how things really are.

PS- Southern Wings fan, I have forgotten more about this team and hockey in general then you will ever know so pipe down smallfry and go back to the "Why wont Babs play Hudler more" threads.

Yikes, you really got me there Internet tough guy!

More than I will ever know? Well, 2 + 2 = 4, so I guess that's a good starting point to know something. *shrugs*

[LeDs 0]

Who knows more about hockey than anyone on here. Answer: Scotty Bowman. Why did Bowman go out and pull Kocer from the beer league. It wasn't to necessarily fight and it certainly wasn't to score goals. It was about intimidation. One aspect I think people are overlooking is how this affects the skilled players. When a player is entering the offensive zone is he worried about someone taking his head off ? How aggressive is he being checked. The less aggressive the defenders are the more room and freedom the offensive players have. It's about more than fighting.

Do you honestly think that Anaheim would have taken so many cheap shots if Kocer or someone of the like was on the bench. Think about it, when Shanahan would drive the net and be in front of the goalie after a play ended how many players would push him away or cross check him. Not many. Most would just skate away.

I remember Kocer coming onto the ice and seeing fear in the eyes of the other team. Believe me it does have an impact.

I want our skilled players making plays not thinking of their safety. When I mention the space the defenders are giving the opposing player an inch or two can make a big difference.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

"There are a number of Wings who won't take s*** from other guys - Maltby, Cleary, Chelios, Lijia, Franzen, now Drake, and even Zetterberg mixes it up nicely from time to time. I really don't think the Wings are ever playing scared, and the product they put on the ice proves it. Its important to have guys like Cleary who are hard nosed hockey players, but having a guy who goes out to get even for supposed cheap shots was not, and is not necessary."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya, bro wake up or shut up because it is evident you are absolutely clueless.

"Your numbers are irrelevant. 6/10 times in your stats, the team with FEWER fighting majors won the cup. The Canes won the Cup with a WHOPING 19 fighting majors last year!? Whooiieee. Even though I am sure it would make no difference to the argument, i'd like to see the fighting major TOTALS for every team for the last 10 years, and we will see how many times a team with high FM won the cup. I don't know what more you want. The Wings won the fricken conf. last year and barring injuries vs. the Ducks, very well could have won the cup. "

You are ignorant, the numbers are far from irrelevevant, they illustrate that teams that have FM's in the single digits simply do not win cups you twit. It shows that to be a well rounded hockey unit having players willing to drop em here and there is a must. I knew funboys like you would bring up the canes, and even they double the FM's detroit has racked up over the past 2 years combined. Keep with your philosophy of "Maltby, Cleary, Franzen (bahahahahahahahahaha)" not taking s*** and the conference finals is the farthest you'll ever see this team go. I am sorry bro but your inability to grasp a funamental idea leads me to believe you are just a slow individual whom does not deserve nor warrant any further explanation into how things really are.

PS- Southern Wings fan, I have forgotten more about this team and hockey in general then you will ever know so pipe down smallfry and go back to the "Why wont Babs play Hudler more" threads.

Wow. Based on your juvenile insults, I hope you are under the age of 15 - if not, you should be ashamed of yourself.

As for your argument - I'm SURE if the Wings would have had 4 more FM this season, they would have been much more successful in the playoffs - were fighting plays such a huge role.

The Wings proved this season that fighting majors don't get you Wins - having a balanced offense and defense does. In fact they've proved that for the last 10 years. Take out the fights in Avalanche related games from the last decade, and the Wings are a relatively tame team, and arguably the best team in the league in the last decade. Its clear from the Wings success that fighting is not part of their game, having skilled players is.

I think its obvious that Holland is constructing this team around talent, not fighting. The Wings finished the standings higher then 29 other teams, and lost in six to the eventual Cup winners because of injuries NOT RELATED TO 'CHEAPSHOTS' which would have been prevented by an enforcer scaring other players off. Using Anaheim as the ultimate role model of a hockey team because they have Parros is foolish - We all watched the Conf. finals. The Wings didn't loose because they didn't have an enforcer, that series could have gone either way. While it would have been nice to have some TOUGHNESS, thoughness is not always best exemplified by an enforcer. Laugh at me all you want sticknmove, but Zetterberg DOES have grit, and if you watched any hockey this season, particularly the Calgary series, you would have seen Zetterberg hanging tough with Iginla on several occasions.

By the way have been warranting 'further explanation' and debate in this forum for the last 4 years - I get it. I suggest you smarten up and show some respect to other posters.

EDIT -for the record - this thread is asking if Detroit needs an Enforcer, and I'm saying no. I have no complaints with toughness, in fact - like everyone else i'd welcome more USEFUL toughness..obviously. But useful toughness is guys like Shanahan and Fischer. Guys who are actually useful beyond fighting.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Yzerfan1999

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I understand where people are coming from, for the most part. For instance, when I read what Lou has to say, it has less to do with whether or not his moves really help the team and more to do with putting out a product that he will enjoy more. I bet that if we lost in the first round, but had a tough, gritty, 75 fight team, he'd enjoy it more than if we won the cup with what we have now. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe that I get from him.

Well, thats partly true. For example, I may chime in that i really want someone like McGrattan, but at the same time I wont be bitching and using the reasoning that we need someone like that to win. Ive never been one to say someone like him or Boogaard is a necessity. Thats strictly based on entertainment purposes. However, when i talk about wanting the Asham types and general team toughness, aside from the enjoyment reason I firmly believe its needed to make it all the way (one of the things of course). Its like the stuff Harold mentions in his sig, i think we have to have the McCartys, Fischers, Shanny's etc...that type of team toughness who's willing to battle. To see a team with basically no fighters on it is the complete opposite of what I want. For that reason, its damn near impossible for me to get behind the team come playoff time when I find the regular season games, for the most part, to be boring. I just want to be able to root for a team that i enjoy watching... i dont think theres anything wrong with that. Will it take 75 fights? Definitely no, (although i wouldnt be complaining )but christ, give me SOME toughness (fighting-wise)! Its not about having to see a fight in a game in order to like it, just to know the chance exists is enough to make everything else in the game more entertaining. Plus I love seeing guys step up and defend one another by scrapping, not shoving, its what i love the most.

As for a cut and dry answer to whether i'd rather have a tough, gritty 75 fight team who loses in the playoffs vs a team with no fighters winning the cup? I wont skirt the question, honestly i'd have to take the first option. I'd rather go down with a team im in die hard support of, even if that means enduring the heartache, than to watch a team win and hardly be excited over it.

[sticknmove 0]

You just dont get it so I am done trying. I will respect those who deserve it and I dont care how long you have posted here in my eyes you are a simple, one dimensional thinker (at least in regards to hockey, I have no clue how you are outside that so i cannot judge) who refuses to see the bigger picture here.

"As for a cut and dry answer to whether i'd rather have a tough, gritty 75 fight team who loses in the playoffs vs a team with no fighters winning the cup?".

wow, that is tough, well the wings had 12 fm and didnt win the cup so i guess we got the short end of the stick both ways huh?

[Yzerfan1999 81]

You just dont get it so I am done trying. I will respect those who deserve it and I dont care how long you have posted here in my eyes you are a simple, one dimensional thinker (at least in regards to hockey, I have no clue how you are outside that so i cannot judge) who refuses to see the bigger picture here.

"As for a cut and dry answer to whether i'd rather have a tough, gritty 75 fight team who loses in the playoffs vs a team with no fighters winning the cup?".

wow, that is tough, well the wings had 12 fm and didnt win the cup so i guess we got the short end of the stick both ways huh?

You obviously judge people on weak assumptions. If you think i am a simple, one dimensional thinker based on the fact that I don't think an enforcer is needed in Detroit...well I'm sorry - thats pathetic.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

I'll sum all of this up:

Can you win a game with a fight?

I would love a fighter, but not at the expense of having a Hudler or a Flip out of a roster spot. If we could get a PRODUCING fighter, then I am all for it. But a Laraque, Boogaard, Ivanans, Worrell... eh, no thanks.

[sticknmove 0]

when it comes to hockey yes, and you are proving it by commenting "because i dont think we need an enforcer". I am not really assuming anything either, i am forming an opinion of your hockey views, nothing else, just your hockey views.

[theman19 47]

PS- Southern Wings fan, I have forgotten more about this team and hockey in general then you will ever know so pipe down smallfry and go back to the "Why wont Babs play Hudler more" threads.

go away, Southern wings fan is the longest posting member still active on this board. If you're so fond of hf boards go post there.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

when it comes to hockey yes, and you are proving it by commenting "because i dont think we need an enforcer". I am not really assuming anything either, i am forming an opinion of your hockey views, nothing else, just your hockey views.

yikes.

[sticknmove 0]

"I would love a fighter, but not at the expense of having a Hudler or a Flip out of a roster spot. If we could get a PRODUCING fighter, then I am all for it. But a Laraque, Boogaard, Ivanans, Worrell... eh, no thanks."

i definitly hear you but you have to trade skill sets sometimes in order for an overall better balanced team. Say a NFL didnt opt to go with any real big linemen, instead go with a smaller faster line. That line would be really good at a couple things and helpless at others. But I do agree of not wanting to give up point getters for a piece of garbage.

Laraque (would love him, check his stats 2 yrs ago in edm. not all that bad for guy getting the minutes he did)

Boogard (agree however he is such a monster he would be hard to turn down if offered. ps i hate his guts either way)

worrell (agree 100% this guy is garbage wouldnt take him under any circumstances)

"If you're so fond of hf boards go post there."

I do, when i am done here. thanks champ!

[Guest Crymson]

Anaheim carried George Parros and won the Stanley Cup. Buffalo carried Andrew Peters and tied us for the most points in the regular season. The Rangers renewed Colton Orr's contract (for 2 years) before adding Gomez and Drury to his protection duties. Pittsburg has invested a lot of time and money into their young elite scorers, they traded for arguably the Heavyweight Champion in the NHL when they acquired Big Georges Laraque. Alexander Ovechkin runs people knowing Donald Brashear has his back, and Todd Fedoruk continues to find work in the NHL.

I'm not talking about mindless goonery here folks, I am talking about a physically intimidating presence on our team. I'm talking about a guy we can send out there to send a message. Putting Dallas Drake on the ice for us is a nice step in the right direction, but he cannot be expected to fill the enforcer role for the team: it's simply not what he's good at.

So what is it about the current administration in Motown that we appear to be so resistant to carrying a heavyweight enforcer on the team? Babs likes the rough stuff and seems to have a good sense of when and how to utilize this aspect of the game. Bowman is the one I'm not so sure about to be honest with you. I think as long as he is consiglieri to Holland I think the honey potion being poured in that ear will continue to exclude the vision of an enforcer in Detroit.

What do you guys think? Why doesn't Detroit carry a heavyweight enforcer these days? What is ownership and management telling Hank and Dats here? Are they not worth protecting? Williams and Lebda last year showed us clearly what we lacked. Sure, it's only two incidents, I guarantee you the team chemistry solidifies if we send out a guy who grabs <insert perp name here> and gives him a good beating to remind him that running at our guys is a big ******* nono!

We proved last year that we could take a hit. It looks like we're trying to prove this year that we can start the hitting by adding a guy like Drake, but will we also make a statement about taking care of our own by carrying a heavyweight enforcer? Is it even necessary?

Discuss.

George Parros and Andrew Peters did almost precisely jacksh*t for their respective teams. Parros, in particular, hardly even played during the playoffs. You are vastly overstating the impact of these players, who in addition to being relatively frequent healthy scratches also pretty much never scored or contributed in any significant way.

As somebody on this forum smartly said, today's NHL is no longer about pure scorers who can't hit or pure fighters

who can't score. Instead, today's NHL is about players in between--players who have grit and can score.

[theman19 47]

"I would love a fighter, but not at the expense of having a Hudler or a Flip out of a roster spot. If we could get a PRODUCING fighter, then I am all for it. But a Laraque, Boogaard, Ivanans, Worrell... eh, no thanks."

i definitly hear you but you have to trade skill sets sometimes in order for an overall better balanced team. Say a NFL didnt opt to go with any real big linemen, instead go with a smaller faster line. That line would be really good at a couple things and helpless at others. But I do agree of not wanting to give up point getters for a piece of garbage.

Laraque (would love him, check his stats 2 yrs ago in edm. not all that bad for guy getting the minutes he did)

Boogard (agree however he is such a monster he would be hard to turn down if offered. ps i hate his guts either way)

worrell (agree 100% this guy is garbage wouldnt take him under any circumstances)

"If you're so fond of hf boards go post there."

I do, when i am done here. thanks champ!

great, don't let the door hit you on the way out squirt. Go beat your chest and do your king of the internet jungle act elsewhere.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

George Parros and Andrew Peters did almost precisely jacksh*t for their respective teams. Parros, in particular, hardly even played during the playoffs. You are vastly overstating the impact of these players, who in addition to being relatively frequent healthy scratches also pretty much never scored or contributed in any significant way.

As somebody on this forum smartly said, today's NHL is no longer about pure scorers who can't hit or pure fighters

who can't score. Instead, today's NHL is about players in between--players who have grit and can score.

Exactly.

Lecavalier Iginla and even Ovechkin are prime examples.

[mcccrock313 0]

all of the forwards on this team are 6'0 180lbs. There is no guy on this roster that will drop the gloves and prove that making a run at one of our players is a mistake.

I have watched so many games this past season and seen so many guys get away with hits on our little sweethearts datsyuk and zetterberg and nobody being able to stick up for them.

The sunday afternoon game against Colorado was a perfect example. Lapierriere taking runs at datsyuk, then maltby PUSHING him, oh boy he pushed him, Ian wants to fight, maltby of course wouldent drop the gloves cuz he just likes to push and talk s***.

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

"I would love a fighter, but not at the expense of having a Hudler or a Flip out of a roster spot. If we could get a PRODUCING fighter, then I am all for it. But a Laraque, Boogaard, Ivanans, Worrell... eh, no thanks."

i definitly hear you but you have to trade skill sets sometimes in order for an overall better balanced team. Say a NFL didnt opt to go with any real big linemen, instead go with a smaller faster line. That line would be really good at a couple things and helpless at others. But I do agree of not wanting to give up point getters for a piece of garbage.

Laraque (would love him, check his stats 2 yrs ago in edm. not all that bad for guy getting the minutes he did)

Boogard (agree however he is such a monster he would be hard to turn down if offered. ps i hate his guts either way)

worrell (agree 100% this guy is garbage wouldnt take him under any circumstances)

"If you're so fond of hf boards go post there."

I do, when i am done here. thanks champ!

So who would you take? I'm all for a guy that sticks up for his teammates, but he has to produce. (Think Shanahan type guy here)

Asham is not a guy that does that. The others that have been brought up here are not that type of guy either. So, who is it? Who is out there that can be a productive member of this team and add some actual point production and not take up a roster spot that is better served by geting some valuable experience for one of the new guys?

I await your response O sage of all things tough and enforcer-like.

[skacore 2]

As for a cut and dry answer to whether i'd rather have a tough, gritty 75 fight team who loses in the playoffs vs a team with no fighters winning the cup? I wont skirt the question, honestly i'd have to take the first option. I'd rather go down with a team im in die hard support of, even if that means enduring the heartache, than to watch a team win and hardly be excited over it.

I can honestly agree with that. I know it's kind of dumb in a way, but I would MUCH rather be supporting a skilled, tough group of true hockey players who were eliminated in the first round rather than the team we have right now. I just can't stand watching players not sticking up for their teammates, it kills me... I know most fans would just be happy with a cup win and I would have loved for us to win the cup this year, but at the same time I would much rather a team that takes situations into their own hands rather than tattling to a referee, that's just how hockey has always been. It is really hard for a group of loyal hockey fans who love tough, physical play to have to adjust to this kind of game night in and night out while the rest of the hockey world sees us as *******, and can you blame them?

[skacore 2]

So who would you take? I'm all for a guy that sticks up for his teammates, but he has to produce. (Think Shanahan type guy here)

Asham is not a guy that does that. The others that have been brought up here are not that type of guy either. So, who is it? Who is out there that can be a productive member of this team and add some actual point production and not take up a roster spot that is better served by geting some valuable experience for one of the new guys?

I await your response O sage of all things tough and enforcer-like.

Arron Asham is that type of player, he would be a sweet fit to the grind line with Maltby and Draper. He is good for 25 points a year and can lay the beat down on 90% of the players in the league. Obviously I don't know anything about his situation right now other than he is an UFA, but he hasn't signed anywhere yet so something must be going on... I haven't even heard rumors of Holland pursuing him.

Dallas Drake? I'm not 100% against this signing but if we were looking for a tough, veteran 4th liner, Chris Simon can get the job done - 27 points last year and the ability to beat down 95% of the league.

Trading is also an option, I like Lebda and his speed but what is he, an offensive defenceman? He doesn't play on the PP, and we have atleast 3 guys (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall) who are ahead of him when it comes to offensive upside. He has problems in his own end and IMO he is at times a liability... if we can get rid of him we can bring up someone like Brad Ference as a 7th D which gives us some size on the back end and toughness, just how I like my D

EDIT: Todd Fedoruk was also available as an UFA, sure his face was busted last season but this guy has an amazing attitude and he wants to win. I actually thought there was a realistic chance we would grab Fedoruk just because Detroit seems like such a great organization for him to renew his career in. He is pretty young, huge, and he is a pretty good 4th liner... he'll probably out score Drake next year. Fedoruk has been in hundreds of fights in his career and yeah he bombed a couple, he will be back.

Edited July 19, 2007 by skacore

[N4C3R 0]

Who knows more about hockey than anyone on here. Answer: Scotty Bowman. Why did Bowman go out and pull Kocer from the beer league. It wasn't to necessarily fight and it certainly wasn't to score goals. It was about intimidation. One aspect I think people are overlooking is how this affects the skilled players. When a player is entering the offensive zone is he worried about someone taking his head off ? How aggressive is he being checked. The less aggressive the defenders are the more room and freedom the offensive players have. It's about more than fighting.

Do you honestly think that Anaheim would have taken so many cheap shots if Kocer or someone of the like was on the bench. Think about it, when Shanahan would drive the net and be in front of the goalie after a play ended how many players would push him away or cross check him. Not many. Most would just skate away.

I remember Kocer coming onto the ice and seeing fear in the eyes of the other team. Believe me it does have an impact.

I want our skilled players making plays not thinking of their safety. When I mention the space the defenders are giving the opposing player an inch or two can make a big difference.

Exactly!