Notes from training camp day 2

[SweWings 45]

Considering he seems to have Babs on-side, he can’t be written off just yet.

But Grigs isn’t having much of an impact which is disappointing considering the massive, albeit unrealistic expectations.

Agreed. I think much more pressure should be placed on people like Filps and Rex to prove themselves when given more minutes and more responsibility.

[Dabura 12,207]

I don't find it shocking that his conditioning would be below the NHL level. He's never been to an NHL training camp. His conditioning would be at a Russian Super League level. Give the kid a chance to learn what's expected of him here and watch the pros.

Agreed.

[vangvace 12]

If it's not an exageration. I don't find it shocking that his conditioning would be below the NHL level. He's never been to an NHL training camp. His conditioning would be at a Russian Super League level. Give the kid a chance to learn what's expected of him here and watch the pros.

I am kinda shocked about his conditioning a bit. It's not like he's still a young prospect, he was drafted 6 years ago. He couldn't have gotten a clue from his agent, NHL friends, the Red Wings, or by reading?!? Yeah the games different but conditioning doesn't change.

Now with that said, and sadly to be a 180 from my first point... with the injuries he's had it's not surprising that he's not in better shape.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Grigorenko has been a major disappointment, thus far. Hopefully he starts stepping it up.

I'm impressed with the fighters. While I'm not counting on any of them to really make the team, all three (Downey, Keefe, and Clark) have been invited back, and weren't cut right away, like I thought they would be. Can't wait to see them in pre-season action!

Sopel sounds like he's been doing good also. I'd like to see the Wings pick him up: we need another defenseman right now, so Chelios doesn't have to play in the top 4 and can be rested for the playoffs.

I'm really looking forward to the pre-season games, to see what some of these guys can do.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[clutchngrab 12]

If it's not an exageration. I don't find it shocking that his conditioning would be below the NHL level. He's never been to an NHL training camp. His conditioning would be at a Russian Super League level. Give the kid a chance to learn what's expected of him here and watch the pros.

Regardless, I'm not writing him off at all. Skillful captains aren't born from smooth sailing.

Bulls***, his playing weight has been listed at around 205, and apprently he's around 220. Don't give me that Russian Super League vs. NHL speed crap. The RSL is the 2nd best league in the world - the guy is pulling a Tzachuk without ever having made the team.

[norrisnick 1]

Bulls***, his playing weight has been listed at around 205, and apprently he's around 220. Don't give me that Russian Super League vs. NHL speed crap. The RSL is the 2nd best league in the world - the guy is pulling a Tzachuk without ever having made the team.

With Cherevpovets in '06, I believe, he was playing at around 215lbs. And the RSL is a FAR slower, more deliberate, defensive league. Longer slower shifts.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

Grigorenko has been a major disappointment, thus far. Hopefully he starts stepping it up.

I'm impressed with the fighters. While I'm not counting on any of them to really make the team, all three (Downey, Keefe, and Clark) have been invited back, and weren't cut right away, like I thought they would be. Can't wait to see them in pre-season action!

Sopel sounds like he's been doing good also. I'd like to see the Wings pick him up: we need another defenseman right now, so Chelios doesn't have to play in the top 4 and can be rested for the playoffs.

I'm really looking forward to the pre-season games, to see what some of these guys can do.

The only way you will see Keefe is if you go to a Grand Rapids game, his contract is with them, not the Red Wings. Neil Clark is to go to a Port Huron Ice Hawks game because he has a contract with them.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Bulls***, his playing weight has been listed at around 205, and apprently he's around 220. Don't give me that Russian Super League vs. NHL speed crap. The RSL is the 2nd best league in the world - the guy is pulling a Tzachuk without ever having made the team.

No.

As NN said- his playing weight did not jump 15 lbs that quickly.

And, once again as NN said- the RSL is much slower and plays far differently from the NHL. International ice size makes a HUGE difference.

Finally- who said that he's extra weight is fat? Maybe he increased his muscle mass and actually cut some fat. I managed to put about 10-12 lbs of muscle on in 4 months while also dropping 2% body fat. I'm 6'1, 200 lbs, 12% body fat. And I put 10lbs of that on (as muscle) between May 1st and August 28th. All of that was done without the use of 'rods, HGH or any of that other horses***. Just hard work, dedication, lots of sleep and a very strict control of what and when I ate. What's the point of that little spiel? I'm trying to say that a professional hockey player could throw on 15 lbs in a summer of hard training. In fact, that's exactly what Zetterberg did last summer. Guess what though- muscle strength and size is very, very different from muscle and cardiovascular endurance. Dump a body-builder on a farm and he's not going to outperform a farm hand by any measure after 15 minutes.

So yeah, Igor might have actually put on some muscle but neglected proper NHL conditioning (as that actually burns off muscle since you'd be all catabolic). He might have actually thought he was getting ready for camp in doing so- remember when NHLers benefited from strength and size over speed?

I wouldn't jump the gun and start chewing him out before Babs does.

[Kp-Wings 3]

The only way you will see Keefe is if you go to a Grand Rapids game, his contract is with them, not the Red Wings. Neil Clark is to go to a Port Huron Ice Hawks game because he has a contract with them.

Wait... so you mean they won't be in any of the pre-season games?

Reason I ask is I haven't heard any news of them being sent back to their respective teams yet. Clark and Keefe weren't on the list of 12 cut/junior bound players that was released recently.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

jskdgjs

Grigs might not be looking to good, but Downey is giving it his all.

Downey agitates.

SIGN. HIM. UP.

[Kp-Wings 3]

It can't hurt to give Downey a chance. Babcock said he wants to carry 14 forwards... right now, including Grigorenko, we are at 13. I see no harm in giving Downey the last spot, and put him in every once in a while when there's injuries, or against teams like Anaheim.

Player wise, he is better then Norton. He hits hard, has decent puck-handling skills, and is a great forechecker. Fighter wise, he isn't great, but he's also still better then Norton. The Norton comparisons given by some around here are pretty off base: Downey is a way better player.

I'd really like to see Downey given a chance. He won't cost us much, about $500,000 or so, and he'd be great to have as an extra forward.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

It can't hurt to give Downey a chance. Babcock said he wants to carry 14 forwards... right now, including Grigorenko, we are at 13. I see no harm in giving Downey the last spot, and put him in every once in a while when there's injuries, or against teams like Anaheim.

Player wise, he is better then Norton. He hits hard, has decent puck-handling skills, and is a great forechecker. Fighter wise, he isn't great, but he's also still better then Norton. The Norton comparisons given by some around here are pretty off base: Downey is a way better player.

I'd really like to see Downey given a chance. He won't cost us much, about $500,000 or so, and he'd be great to have as an extra forward.

Exactly.

Great post.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Bring on Downey! See my avatar

[Hank 0]

i'll wait till i see another source before i write Grigs off...

Bruce MacLeod was critical of him a couple of times during the prospect tournament when there was no other souce, but i'll admit i expected more of an impact...

we should wait till the exibition season before we give up on the guy though. and even starting the season in GR might not be a bad thing.

i also like the sound of Sopel with Lids, but it worries me on the 2nd pairing.

it'll probably mean a Kronwall / Rafalski 2nd pairing, which is 2 offensive d-men playing together. we all know how that worked out with Kronwall and Schneids last year.

I agree that a 2nd opinion is needed but I think it speaks volumes that the wings have a lot invested in Grigs, who has a fairly large 'out window' and yet they have him on the 3rd line with players who possess no hands.

They could have chose to pair him with McGrath, Emmerton, Mursak, any of the other young offensive minded players, but to stick him on a 3rd line speaks volumes to me.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm beginning to think the early assessment of him being out of shape is a fair one and this might be the Wings brass way of saying "We're not pleased. Show us something".

Like Babcock said earlier regarding Howards off-season work ethic, you have to be mentally strong to take up a tough training regimen. If Grig's doesn't want to put time in the weight room, what does that say about his character?

But I'm sure I'll be labeled a racist against Russian's for having the audacity to question his work ethic.

In any event, I hope he's given every opportunity to show what he's got. I'm sure he'll get some quality minutes on the top line during the pre-season.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Hank

[Zata fan 40 6]

The kid doesn't speak a lick of English and is adjusting to a new way of playing. He did look slow on Friday and Saturday,but looked a hell of a lot more comfortable on Sunday and skated better as well. Give him more than a couple days befoe writing him off.

[96warrior 11]

I'm back from three days at training camp and agree that Grigs was very slow. Every time he passed Babcock during practice Babcock was yelling at him to go faster. I will say that once he got to the net, he looked great. I am not writing him off. I do think a few weeks in Grand Rapids will help. I also noted that Datsyuk certainly tried to help. They always found each other and Datsyuk would tell him what he needed to do.

I noticed Downey the first day and agree. He certainly is giving it his all to make the team. My picks after training camp to make the team are Downey and Sopel. I think both would be great additions.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

Wait... so you mean they won't be in any of the pre-season games?

Reason I ask is I haven't heard any news of them being sent back to their respective teams yet. Clark and Keefe weren't on the list of 12 cut/junior bound players that was released recently.

The Red Wings have 2 players from each of the minor league affiliates. They are Brett Westgarth and Nick Tuzzolino from the Flint Generals, Kris Vernarsky and Neil Clark from the Port Huron Ice Hawks, and Jon Insana and Adam Keefe from the Griffins. Allthough I was just at the IHL web site, which is the league the Ice Hawks and Generals are in, it looks to be the U.S. equivalent of the LNAH, which is known as the toughest league in the world. The IHL is being billed as the return to old time hockey, as in the Hansons style of game.

I know I will try to go to a few of these games.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Skiing - Puck

[Hank 0]

I'm back from three days at training camp and agree that Grigs was very slow. Every time he passed Babcock during practice Babcock was yelling at him to go faster. I will say that once he got to the net, he looked great. I am not writing him off. I do think a few weeks in Grand Rapids will help. I also noted that Datsyuk certainly tried to help. They always found each other and Datsyuk would tell him what he needed to do.

I noticed Downey the first day and agree. He certainly is giving it his all to make the team. My picks after training camp to make the team are Downey and Sopel. I think both would be great additions.

But from all indications Grigs doesn't want anything to do with the Griffins.

And Zata fan 40, I know that he's adjusting to North American rinks and doesn't know English but that's no excuse at all for coming into camp out of shape. Datsyuk was in the same predicament but he was still in game shape.

I have far less tolerance for professional athletes who think their skill is above working hard to achieve something.

Many other Russians have come over and were in terrific shape so it's not a cultural thing, it's a character thing.

Again, I didn't write anything to suggest I had written him off. I simply have my doubts as to how hard he's willing to work to be an NHL player.

[rick zombo 3,739]

But from all indications Grigs doesn't want anything to do with the Griffins.

And Zata fan 40, I know that he's adjusting to North American rinks and doesn't know English but that's no excuse at all for coming into camp out of shape. Datsyuk was in the same predicament but he was still in game shape.

I have far less tolerance for professional athletes who think their skill is above working hard to achieve something.

Many other Russians have come over and were in terrific shape so it's not a cultural thing, it's a character thing.

Again, I didn't write anything to suggest I had written him off. I simply have my doubts as to how hard he's willing to work to be an NHL player.

Well, considering Grigorenko recovered (almost completely) from a near fatal car accident, I say we give his desire and character the benifit of the doubt for now.

No one in the Wings orginization has officially proclaimed him as being "out of shape". And he passed his physical.

Maybe the kid's just slow. Maybe he's not going to be good enough to play with the Wings.

But the assumptions flying around about Grigorenko's work ethic, etc are unfounded, IMO.

[Hank 0]

Bulls***, his playing weight has been listed at around 205, and apprently he's around 220. Don't give me that Russian Super League vs. NHL speed crap. The RSL is the 2nd best league in the world - the guy is pulling a Tzachuk without ever having made the team.

Thank you! I wasn't aware that treadmills were different in North American compared to Russia

And I don't remember hearing how Pavel Bure came in out of shape when he scored over 30 goals in just over 60 games as a rookie.

Or how about Fetisov, Larionov, Mogilny, etc, etc.

I read a book called "Behind the Redline" about a college kid that was drafted by Winnipeg in the mid 80's and asked to train in Russia for a year. He said every single one of those players was conditioned like a robot. The first day he was there they went for a 5 mile run on a beach and while he was barely conscience after it was done trying to keep pace, every single Russian teammate of his hadn't even broken a sweat.

If Grigs is out of shape it's not because he's coming across the pond like thousands of other Europeans and Russian's have done before him and hasn't learned to adapt. It's because he hasn't been training properly.

This would also indicate why he had a poor season the RSL this past year. Or was it because he moved to a different apartment and wasn't use to the lighting yet?

Any more excuses to throw out?

[isbister 0]

The kid doesn't speak a lick of English and is adjusting to a new way of playing. He did look slow on Friday and Saturday,but looked a hell of a lot more comfortable on Sunday and skated better as well. Give him more than a couple days befoe writing him off.

I agree 100%. I watched him play a few games in Russia and thought he was great. This kid is gonna gel he just needs time and experience.