Downey or Sopel?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

The real question, right now is, where would you put Andre Roy? Because Downey got a win against him tonight.

Oh, and anyone that has the courage to fight Bob Probert, is an alright guy in my books.

[sticknmove 0]

You are a f*cking tool bro. I am done arguing with you, your points are both idiotic and have zero substance. "Hudler could fight that list if he wanted to", are you 10 bro? What kind of statement, ya he could, then after 1 or 2 he would be dead, literally, he definitly would not make it through the entire list and still have a winning record you twit. I do not know why I even give you the time of day, you are a moron. Where would I put him on the list? I dont know, I suppose not #1, probably not in the top 30, but I do know that he would be #1 on this team because who are we kidding, besides Drake, and I guess Lilja our team is a bunch of p*ssies. I love em, they are my favorite team in the world but they need to toughen up. Could you imagine if that line brawl took place in a wings game? They would get f*cking killed. Ah, there my venting is complete, Nick you are still and absolute ****** bag, who I would wager a sh*t ton does not know anything more about hockey then what he reads on espn.com's msg board. SNOOTCHY BOOCHY's

*** PS- dont even ask him a question like where he would rank Ande Roy, Nick would have absolutely ZERO clue who Andre Roy was unless Norton fought him last year.

Edited September 25, 2007 by sticknmove

[norrisnick 1]

You are a f*cking tool bro. I am done arguing with you, your points are both idiotic and have zero substance. "Hudler could fight that list if he wanted to", are you 10 bro? What kind of statement, ya he could, then after 1 or 2 he would be dead, literally, he definitly would not make it through the entire list and still have a winning record you twit. I do not know why I even give you the time of day, you are a moron. Where would I put him on the list? I dont know, I suppose not #1, probably not in the top 30, but I do know that he would be #1 on this team because who are we kidding, besides Drake, and I guess Lilja our team is a bunch of p*ssies. I love em, they are my favorite team in the world but they need to toughen up. Could you imagine if that line brawl took place in a wings game? They would get f*cking killed. Ah, there my venting is complete, Nick you are still and absolute ****** bag, who I would wager a sh*t ton does not know anything more about hockey then what he reads on espn.com's msg board. SNOOTCHY BOOCHY's

*** PS- dont even ask him a question like where he would rank Ande Roy, Nick would have absolutely ZERO clue who Andre Roy was unless Norton fought him last year.

Reading comprehension is your friend. I did not say Hudler could fight everyone on the list, let alone maintain a winning record. I said he coudl fight anyone on that list if he wanted to. And followed that up by stating it doesn't make him a good fighter.

I don't know why you give me the time of day. I'd prefer it if you didn't, honestly.

Anyhoo, back to the reading comprehension part. I asked Production line if he had Downey in his top 50. You freaked out about it, yet here you state that he probably doesn't make your top 30. So really, what's the big deal here? Why is that vein throbbing so prominently on your forehead? Downey is a bottom tier fighter. Whoopty doo!

The last time the Wings had a line brawl was in '03 I believe when the Blues were crying about getting swept in the season series. To put it bluntly I'm not at all worried about it. Hang on, don't get hurt, get off the ice. Let the other team embarass themselves.

Wasn't Roy the guy the Pens acquired thinking he'd protect their golden boy? From what I hear that didn't turn out so well. He was also on a line with Dingman and the Toolman for Tampa's Cup run, no?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

The last time the Wings had a line brawl was in '03 I believe when the Blues were crying about getting swept in the season series.

One of the best games I've watched, the best line brawl since the one back in 97. Ah the memories!

Edited September 25, 2007 by Detroit # 1 Fan

[sticknmove 0]

You are a idiot. "I said he coudl fight anyone on that list if he wanted to. And followed that up by stating it doesn't make him a good fighter." He would be literally dead or sent into real early retirement somewhere withing the first 3. I have never ranked a top 50 you smoke, so I dont know but WOW did you make a point with that one. And please, even though it got me laughing, DO NOT WIKIPEDIA ANDRE ROY THEN PARAPHRASE IT HERE ACTING AS THOUGH YOU KNOW SOMETHING

[norrisnick 1]

Andre Roy has a wiki page?

Wow...

One of the best games I've watched, the best line brawl since the one back in 97. Ah the memories!

You have no balls.

YOU, have no balls!

Hilarity.

JD (paraphrased) I'd go with anyone on either team, but I wouldn't fight Joe Kocur!

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Aaron Downey has a wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Downey

You have no balls.

YOU, have no balls!

Hilarity.

JD (paraphrased) I'd go with anyone on either team, but I wouldn't fight Joe Kocur!

lol, Im sure there are alot of guys who wouldnt fight Joey

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Reading comprehension is your friend. I did not say Hudler could fight everyone on the list, let alone maintain a winning record. I said he coudl fight anyone on that list if he wanted to. And followed that up by stating it doesn't make him a good fighter.

I don't know why you give me the time of day. I'd prefer it if you didn't, honestly.

Anyhoo, back to the reading comprehension part. I asked Production line if he had Downey in his top 50. You freaked out about it, yet here you state that he probably doesn't make your top 30. So really, what's the big deal here? Why is that vein throbbing so prominently on your forehead? Downey is a bottom tier fighter. Whoopty doo!

The last time the Wings had a line brawl was in '03 I believe when the Blues were crying about getting swept in the season series. To put it bluntly I'm not at all worried about it. Hang on, don't get hurt, get off the ice. Let the other team embarass themselves.

Wasn't Roy the guy the Pens acquired thinking he'd protect their golden boy? From what I hear that didn't turn out so well. He was also on a line with Dingman and the Toolman for Tampa's Cup run, no?

Nick, you are being ridiculous. Anybody who knows anything about fighting will give Downey credit enough for being a legitimate heavyweight fighter in the NHL. As for where he ranks, I put him near the bottom of the heavyweight category. However, the bottom is one of those things where its like 20 guys who could all move up or down depending on the type of season they have winning or losing fights.

The point is Downey is good enough to hang with most of the guys in the league. That's all we need him to do. It isn't realistic to expect any one heavyweight to dominate and win every fight. That's a fact for probably 95% of fighters excluding Laraque and Boogaard. What you're looking for is a guy who can handle himself against his likely opposition.

Your comment about Hudler, while I get what you're trying to say, doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on Downey. Downey is plenty good enough to fight other heavyweights. If you think you can argue that point then please do so.

The 2nd point is he is in my mind a good enough player to play regularly for us if Babcock were to so choose. His skating is not a liability and that's the biggest thing. He can keep up. The rest will come. He'll chip in an odd point here or there but his duty would be to crash and bang and not be a liability on the ice. He can do all these things.

He's no God. He's just a glimmer of hope for people who want a player of his ilk.

When the Wings win a cup without a player like this then you can say "i told you so". For now all you have is double talk and you deflect every point by making it about another player or European captains or Sergei Fedorov or Jiri Hudler. Yeah, I understand what you're trying to do. Hell, we could say that the Wings haven't won a cup since an LGW member was officially on the roster. We could say that but its redundant and impractical. Why you insist on using that form of logic as the basis by which you determine fighting isn't necessary to win I don't know.

My guess is partly because you've never played so you don't know what its like to pick on somebody in a game or get picked on and have somebody stand up for you. If you had you would understand what i'm talking about. You may not agree with it but you'd understand it. Right now, you have no understanding of that scenario. You can't possibly because you haven't experienced it. That's not to pick on you, just an observation.

PS: You take a player like Maltby whose best seasons and best playoffs came when he had Mac or Kocur riding on the other Wing. I can't prove it but perhaps having a Downey-like player on his line all season would boost Malts confidence, make him more of a factor and give him better numbers all season long and into the playoffs. There's alot to be said about performance in relation to confidence. If you had played hockey you would know the feeling you get before a game if you know the opposition is far more talented than you or has far more beef than you or when you are the more talented team or the tougher team. It helps your confidence level in some cases and it can affect players negatively in some cases. You can't prove it, its just a feeling I know i've encountered when looking at the other team and wondering if i'm going to be able to shut down this guy all night long when I know how good he is, how fast he is, etc... Or am I possibly going to have to fight that guy at some point, can I beat him? How'd he fare against that other guy I fought? You can't measure these things but over the course of the season i'll take my chances with it versus the alternative.

Edited September 25, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[Curban915 0]

You know nick i like some of your points. But there just wrong, Downey is not that bad i dont understand all the bad talk about him but yet dont understand all the positive. The wings need a player like him or him i would not mind him gettting the 13the spot give me a reason why anyone other then him should have it. Igor look as bad as lang did and we all know how that goes here. So who thats trying out does anything different then what we already have? Better yet who trying out does something different and the only person that would be like that on this team? Please don't come back with cleary malts drake and liga those are not even in the same group. Drake is just a hitter malts is just a pk man, cleary is what i think could be the wings guy some what like dustin penner.

[OsGOD 3]

My answer to the original questions stands... who is going to A) play more and 2) drop the gloves every shift... if neither than I say forgid aboud id!

[eva unit zero 271]

You know nick i like some of your points. But there just wrong, Downey is not that bad i dont understand all the bad talk about him but yet dont understand all the positive. The wings need a player like him or him i would not mind him gettting the 13the spot give me a reason why anyone other then him should have it. Igor look as bad as lang did and we all know how that goes here. So who thats trying out does anything different then what we already have? Better yet who trying out does something different and the only person that would be like that on this team? Please don't come back with cleary malts drake and liga those are not even in the same group. Drake is just a hitter malts is just a pk man, cleary is what i think could be the wings guy some what like dustin penner.

If Downey makes the team because of his fighting abilities, he would have to be in the top 12. He may fight, but his skill level offensively and defensively is not where it needs to be for him to be a regular on the Wings. Which means he would have to be the 13th forward. Guess what? Downey's ability to enforce would be worthless if he's never dressed; teams are going to take cheap shots as they would if he wren't on the roster, because he won't be on the ice. So it comes down to how does his skill compare with the other people competing for the 13th spot, since fighting is an unimportant consideration for that spot? Guess what..Downey doesn't stack up.

[Curban915 0]

I think it takes more then pre season games to make that call. When did homer become this great player for the wings when the moved him on line with 2 all stars. If you play downey with AHL players then dont expect alot. If you dont give him some min dont expect alot. I think you put him with cleary and huds in a pre season game for a shift or two see how he does. Hell it cant hurt. NOTE i said pre season.

[eva unit zero 271]

I think it takes more then pre season games to make that call. When did homer become this great player for the wings when the moved him on line with 2 all stars. If you play downey with AHL players then dont expect alot. If you dont give him some min dont expect alot. I think you put him with cleary and huds in a pre season game for a shift or two see how he does. Hell it cant hurt. NOTE i said pre season.

Downey has been playing in the same conditions as the people he's competing against. The Wings have 12 forwards with roster spots locked up...they have all been playing on the top two lines during the preseason. Just because you want Downey to make the team doesn't mean he should be given a better situation than others who are in the same boat of trying to make the team. Grigorenko, Ellis, Hartigan are all playing with AHLers too...and guess what? They have looked better than Downey.

[Curban915 0]

Igor has not looked good at all. I was making a comment to yours about how he brings nothing other then fighting to the team. Well give him some min with some skilled players and see if thats true thats all i'm saying last time a checked what ever i said ment nothing i can care less if downey makes the team. He wont Det is not a team thats going to fight they going to let everyone fly around run Dats from behind. And just say hey will beat you on the score bored untill dats gets hurt then all bets are off.

[eva unit zero 271]

Igor has not looked good at all. I was making a comment to yours about how he brings nothing other then fighting to the team. Well give him some min with some skilled players and see if thats true thats all i'm saying last time a checked what ever i said ment nothing i can care less if downey makes the team. He wont Det is not a team thats going to fight they going to let everyone fly around run Dats from behind. And just say hey will beat you on the score bored untill dats gets hurt then all bets are off.

And Downey as the 13th forward will prevent Dats from getting run from behind? The 13th forward should be a person who can play the skill game to a similar degree as the average person he would be replacing, not someone who is on the roster for what he might contribute if he were a regular. Downey's fists won't protect anyone from the press box.

[Curban915 0]

I'm so sick of this why fill a roster spot with what we already have. Downey is at least something different. A guy like him does not need to dress every night. But there is no point in fighting this with you have your one sided mind already made up. Its a shame that you cant open your mind to something different, i just simply made a comment that Downey may help dats from getting ran from behind. Go back a few years when we had or skill mixed with fighters how often did they get ran at sometimes they did but the payed a price when they did. If i played for the other team and DET had no one that was going to kick my ass for hitting dats from behind and we were in the playoffs i'm going to lay him out any chance i get. At least Downey may hold some ppl accountable for there actions no where did i say Downey is the savior. Hell who knows maybe he may even get a few points why he is at it sounds like bonus to me.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Curban915

[Opie 308]

Do you ever watch games other than wings games? Please don't take that as an insult it is an honest question.

Guys get run on every team, regardless of who is on the roster. Hully has even said that the players need to be able to police themselves, because too many guys are taking late, dirty, or high hits on players. It is a league wide pandemic!

I understand that with a guy like Downey on the team it gives the wings someone to exact revenge, but as other "one sided mind" people have said with Downey in the press box what good does it afford. I do understand that you can dress him for games with bigger or more bad ass fighters. But are Boogard, Tootoo going to be the only ones trying to run Pavel or Z. So he may be a help for some games he plays, but people on here are acting like Pavel and Z will have a cone of safety around them because Downey is on the roster. That is simply not true because

A. He will not play that much. Maybe 30 games.

B. Other teams can take runs at these guys.

C. The players can not police themselves until the Instigator rule is gone.

D. No way Downey would see ice time in the post season unless he either finds a scoring touch or there were some big injuries.

[Curban915 0]

Do you ever watch games other than wings games? Please don't take that as an insult it is an honest question.

Guys get run on every team, regardless of who is on the roster. Hully has even said that the players need to be able to police themselves, because too many guys are taking late, dirty, or high hits on players. It is a league wide pandemic!

I understand that with a guy like Downey on the team it gives the wings someone to exact revenge, but as other "one sided mind" people have said with Downey in the press box what good does it afford. I do understand that you can dress him for games with bigger or more bad ass fighters. But are Boogard, Tootoo going to be the only ones trying to run Pavel or Z. So he may be a help for some games he plays, but people on here are acting like Pavel and Z will have a cone of safety around them because Downey is on the roster. That is simply not true because

A. He will not play that much. Maybe 30 games.

B. Other teams can take runs at these guys.

C. The players can not police themselves until the Instigator rule is gone.

D. No way Downey would see ice time in the post season unless he either finds a scoring touch or there were some big injuries.

But who is to say he cant find a scoring touch on a team like the wings. If you ask me he has proved more then Igor has. I think you need to have a mix of players When Drakes out Downey can play who is to say Drake with his old body does not get hurt early would be nice to have Downey ready to go.

[Opie 308]

The wings are not some magical team that when people show up all of the sudden that add a dimension to there game they don't have.

Using that same logic I could say that Kopecky will all of the sudden become a fighter because that is what the team needs. The same way all of the sudden a 33 year old player who has never scored more than two goals or four assists in a season will start to find the touch.

Here is one of the main problems I have with Downey as the 13th forward, you would like your 13th forward to be more of an all around guy, who at last minute you can throw on the roster if Draper or Sammy or someone else has something happen last minute, The flu or a freak puck to the foot in warm ups. With Downey as the 13th you get a guy who can fight and skate, that is it. His defense is not that great or he would have been a Maltby type player for the other teams he was on.

The man has 68 career shots on goal, that is 1 for every 3 games he has played.

This guy is not going to morph into McCarty or Hartnell, just simply because he is on the wings, not going to happen!

If Drake is out, Downey would be a good replacement, but that is one situation that he works out in. If Draper is out, do you really want Downey in that role? Cleary? Franzen? Sammy? Flip?

Downey becoming the 13th forward has a lot more factors than just being an enforcer.

Would it be nice to have an enforcer, sure, but the roster is set and unless they can get a guy who can score and garner a lot of points they are not going to start shifting the roster around, just to get an enforcer on the ice.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Do you ever watch games other than wings games? Please don't take that as an insult it is an honest question.

Guys get run on every team, regardless of who is on the roster. Hully has even said that the players need to be able to police themselves, because too many guys are taking late, dirty, or high hits on players. It is a league wide pandemic!

I understand that with a guy like Downey on the team it gives the wings someone to exact revenge, but as other "one sided mind" people have said with Downey in the press box what good does it afford. I do understand that you can dress him for games with bigger or more bad ass fighters. But are Boogard, Tootoo going to be the only ones trying to run Pavel or Z. So he may be a help for some games he plays, but people on here are acting like Pavel and Z will have a cone of safety around them because Downey is on the roster. That is simply not true because

A. He will not play that much. Maybe 30 games.

B. Other teams can take runs at these guys.

C. The players can not police themselves until the Instigator rule is gone.

D. No way Downey would see ice time in the post season unless he either finds a scoring touch or there were some big injuries.

How many games do we have against Nashville, St.Louis, Chicago, Columbus, Anaheim?

If Downey dressed for those games and only those games I'd be just fine with it. Hell, that'd be about 1/2 the season and that's plenty for me. Plenty of opportunity to go after Tootoo, Mayers, VanderMeer, Pronger, Tollefson, anybody who might otherwise run at us and not have to face any repercussions.

[Opie 308]

If Downey dressed for those games and only those games I'd be just fine with it. Hell, that'd be about 1/2 the season and that's plenty for me. Plenty of opportunity to go after Tootoo, Mayers, VanderMeer, Pronger, Tollefson, anybody who might otherwise run at us and not have to face any repercussions.

I love the wording on this, GS&T way to say what you mean!!!!

OK GS&T whose spot does he take in those 41 games?

Maltby's, I have already said I am fine with that.

Kopecky, I would rather let the youngster get the feel for an NHL season and play more.

Drake, I think people are underestimating what Drake will bring, but then again I could be overestimating. He may not fight but he will bring a nastiness with him, ask Lebda.

Who else Cleary? not unless there is an injury, Franzen? Flip? Draper?

I see this spot being for a guy who can offer up some rest to guys or fill in for a minor injury like a day to day thing.

I am really starting to see a spot though for him to rotate with an aging and less effective Maltby.

BTW that would mean he would play in his 3rd highest total games in his career missing his personal best by 2.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I love the wording on this, GS&T way to say what you mean!!!!

OK GS&T whose spot does he take in those 41 games?

Maltby's, I have already said I am fine with that.

Kopecky, I would rather let the youngster get the feel for an NHL season and play more.

Drake, I think people are underestimating what Drake will bring, but then again I could be overestimating. He may not fight but he will bring a nastiness with him, ask Lebda.

Who else Cleary? not unless there is an injury, Franzen? Flip? Draper?

I see this spot being for a guy who can offer up some rest to guys or fill in for a minor injury like a day to day thing.

I am really starting to see a spot though for him to rotate with an aging and less effective Maltby.

BTW that would mean he would play in his 3rd highest total games in his career missing his personal best by 2.

It's a tough call. I haven't seen enough of Kopa to just give him an 82 game slot and say here, its all yours. Drake's style could get him injured. Hudler is either going to make or break. I think we're all hoping he'll bust out but who knows. Malts I think is too valuable from a PK standpoint and does alot of little things that he gets no credit for.

It's going to be a rotational situation. Somebody, at some point will sit because Babcock is like Scotty and he will sit a guy if he isn't working hard enough. Hell, sometimes Samuellson got benched for being cold or lazy.

The aforementioned guys will have slumps, that and having Downey on their heels for playing time makes a rotation in and out of the lineup to face tougher teams seems like a good situation to be in.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Plenty of opportunity to go after Tootoo, Mayers, VanderMeer, Pronger, Tollefson.

I'd love to see him go after Pronger and Tootoo, I dont know why you'd put Mayers in there, he's never struck me as a cheap shot, kinda guy like the rest of them.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'd love to see him go after Pronger and Tootoo, I dont know why you'd put Mayers in there, he's never struck me as a cheap shot, kinda guy like the rest of them.

Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't listing "cheap shot" players only. I was listing guys who usually take every opportunity to run (be it clean or not) at our players. Mayers is actually a player I really like. Except he will never let Dats or Z have a free pass. That's why I want guys like that, like Downey, on our team to go bang on Kariya, Dumont, Radulov, Getzlaf, etc...and if need be, be able to back it up with his fists should a Mayers or Tollefson want to go. That's what I was getting at.